Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
I'll add to 'no start' thread after I figure it out ... need your brains, please

OK, my car will not start using the normal procedure, but I can get it to start and run fine. I need your help.

I recently reinstalled my engine.
- used spray electronic cleaner and/or wire brushes on all contacts prior to reconnecting
- cleaned ground strap to body mount and cable
- cleaned ground strap to trans mount and cable
- cleaned all three connections on starter
- cleaned multi pin wiring loom connection brick on firewall
- cleaned multi pin wiring loom connection brick in driver's rear wheel fuse area
- cleaned battery terminals
- cleaned battery cables

Put key in ignition, turn key - starter clicks but will not turn over engine

Took starter out, put in vice; connected jumpers to positive terminal and to mounting flange, jump wire between positive post and switch terminal, and starter works like brand new. Put starter back in car. ...click...

Try to cut to the chase and attach positive jumper cable from spare battery (yes I bought a new battery, too) to starter positive post. Attach negative jumper to trans bolt near ground strap. Turn dash key to start and car starts right up and runs great. ...

Disconnnect jumpers to starter and engine stumbles but keeps running. turn off and try key...click...

Both batteries are above 12 volts.

So, this is where I am right now. Key will not start car, but if I add jumpers to the starter the car will start. If I add same jumpers to battery in front car will not start.

Somewhere between the battery and the rear of the car is some resistance or a bad connection.

Can anyone help me figure our where I should try using my multimeter to trace the fault?

I assume the body is the ground, so figure I should be chasing the positive circuit between front and rear. I see the starter positive cable goes into the loom, through the engine tin near the oil cooler, across the engine and seems to split with part going to firewall multi pin brick and part going to rear fender multi pin brick. Not sure which pins to test or where to go from there.

Is it possibly the CDI? I notice I get no tach signal but was hoping I could troubleshoot that separately. If it was the CDI I would think it would not run at all, whereas it does run if the jumpers are attached to the starter and trans.

Any advice?

__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-12-2010, 11:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
I continued to work on this today.
I am wondering if perhaps the solenoid is drawing too many amps.
Does anyone know how many amps the solenoid should draw? - I'll check the sticky no start thread as soon as I post this, too.

Should I test with key turned to start position?
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-12-2010, 05:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,874
Do your starter wire connections look like this:

Provided you're certain you've got all the wires hooked up to the right location, ticky but no-startie usually means a bad solenoid internal connection (copper contacts that close to send full amps to the starter). Sounds like your starter is fine, but no juice is being connected to it via the solenoid when it closes.

The part that's funny and probably a tell-tale sign is that the car stumbles and runs poorly after started and the remote jumper battery is removed. Alternator diode bad, perhaps?

Sorry not much help. Hang in there, lots of people out there with intimate starter knowledge.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-12-2010, 05:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,745
Had a toyota 4 runner do that intermitantly for about 8 years. turned out to be a bad ingnition switch. Having a similar problem with mine now but i am not getting the alternator light when i start the car. So tomorrow i am pulling the alternator to start trouble shooting.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
2019 Silverado 6.2L
Old 06-12-2010, 05:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
Yes, the cables to the starter look like the picture. I'll be back at it today, so will let you know how I make out.
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-13-2010, 03:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
re seated tach connector (black male/female tube with pin connection) and now tach is working.

Car starts great if I connect aux battery to positive starter pole and run other cable to ground. Still just clicks if I rely only upon the battery in the trunk.

Battery voltage in trunk is 12.7 volts. Aux battery is similar.
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-13-2010, 04:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,874
WTF...this almost smells of a bad ground connection. I know you cleaned all your grounds. Didn't forget to attach the ground strap on the transmission, did you? (silly stupid obvious question, I know, but had to ask).
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-13-2010, 04:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
removed strap from trans and wire brushed it and the washers and sprayed with elcetronics cleaner. Same thing on the end that straps to the body.

Even ran a third cable from battery ground post in trunk to trans to bypass grounding from trans to body. No improvement.
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-13-2010, 05:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
OK, I hope I am on some sort of path toward isolating this. Here are my voltage readings:

With wife holding key in "engage starter" position:
voltage at positive post = 10.2 volts
voltage at middle terminal (yellow cable) = 0.49 volts
voltage at lower terminal (starter switch lead? - other yellow) = 0.49 volts

So, I am guessing the positive post at the starter should be seeing 12volts not 10.2volts. Or is this 10.2v a reasonable value to see when the solenoid is engaged / switch is "on start"? Does the 1.8volt difference between battery voltage (12+volts) and the starter post voltage during starting indicate the solenoid is drawing too much voltage? Should I expect to see a much smaller voltage drop?

If the solenoid is not sucking up the 1.8volts, then I guess I must be losing it between the battery and the starte post...

First question: I assume the positive power gets to the started via the multi pin bricks on the firewall and on the rear driver's side fender well. Anyone know which pins supply the 12volts? I suspect I should measure there next?

Second question: what is the middle terminal lead for - what does that yellow wire go to?
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-13-2010, 05:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
Today I started it up with the aux battery again (jumpered to positive lead on starter and to ground on transmission).

I checked voltage on the aux battery with the engine running and it showed 14.27volts at idle. So, it seems the alternator is charging.

I checked the battery in the trunk and it is 12.26volts. So it seems the charging current is not reaching the front.

Seems too weird to me. Current from front battery is enough to throw the solenoid but not enough to crank the engine. CDI, alternator, all systems seem to work fine. Aux battery will easily start engine, and registers a charge from alternator.

So it seems to me I am back where I started: something between the front and rear is either drawing load or blocking current (or ground).

Does anyone know which pins I should check or which wires I should check to narrow down the part of the circuit that is causing the issue?
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-14-2010, 05:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,874
Jeeze, I love a good mystery...especially when it's somebody elses. So, on that "new battery": are you referring to the new secondary jumper battery, or the one in the car? Almost sounds like a bad cell.
OK, I'm reaching a bit...sorry if stupid question, but a bad cell in the battery will do exactly what you're describing.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-14-2010, 05:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,745
Did you get the alternator warning light? does it come on when you turn the key and then go off once it starts? If so there is a trouble shooting section in the manual for that. it can be as simple as the alt warning light bulb burned out. mine was doing something very similar and wasn't charging the battery turned out to be a burned out Diode in that same circuit. I chased this problem for several months as it was intermittent. found it a couple days ago. I didn't know the alternator warning light was supposed to come on when you start the car. After i found out that it was pretty easy to find. hope this helps.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
2019 Silverado 6.2L

Last edited by Ken911; 06-14-2010 at 06:53 PM..
Old 06-14-2010, 06:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Turbofrog
 
smurfbus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,508
Don't remember if you tried already but just switch the trunk battery for the new one that is conformed to start the car from the starter. When my car arrived after 2months in a container the optima was really dead, so dead it would not start with a helper battery connected to it. I had to replace the battery to get it started.

So sounds like there might be a short on the trunk battery.
Old 06-14-2010, 08:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
I have swapped the battery and that makes no difference. Both are over 12 volts. Bad cell would drop to 10+ volts.

I'll check the alternator light. I do jnot recall seeing the alternator light being lit at all.
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-15-2010, 02:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 780
Garage
The terminal on the bottom of the solenoid with yellow wire gets full voltage which is over 12volts. So that seems to be good.

The top lead - the positive post on the solenoid with the large red cable is the one not getting the 12 volts when the key is turned to start. Where does that cable go after it leaves the starter? To the alternator? Is there then a cable from the alternator to the battery?

The engine will start with key if I connect 12 volts to the positive post on the starter. Once started if I disconnect the jumper and multi meter the red cable on the starter positive post it reads over 14 volts, so it seems the alternator is charging. But if I leave the jumper cable disconnected the engine will diue - the battery in the front is not getting the charge.

I think my next stpe is to remove the fan/alternator to see if one of those leads is dirty/loose, etc. Is it possible while engine was upside down on stand some oil got into the connection or perhaps become loose? I am wondering if there is a lead from the alternator to the starter and from the alternator to the battery (which seems to make sense to me) that may be the issue.

Advice? Anyone else ever had this happen?
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 06-15-2010, 04:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 8,243
I'm not sure how, but the power from the alternator runs through the starter. I found this out when I had what I thought was a bad alternator. Replace the alternator, only to find I had the same problem. Took a look at the starter and the nut holding the large red wire was loose. What a waste of time and money.
Old 06-15-2010, 06:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,745
I had the same symptoms only with the diode being shot in the alternator warning light circuit. Do you have a Bentley manual? if not get one there is a very good trouble shooting chart in it.follow that and it will guide you through to a solution. I also have a perfectly good alternator on my work bench for the same reason. On the another note the Bosch re manufactured starter that i bought in Feb is now tits up. Fortunately there is a one year warranty on it so I'll be running down to exchange it in the morning. Same old will not turn over when hot issue. next time i have to buy a starter i am either buying a new Bosch starter or one of those high torque ones.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
2019 Silverado 6.2L
Old 06-15-2010, 06:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Turbofrog
 
smurfbus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,508
I searched for a bentley for 930 last week but there is none? Do you guys talk about the one for the 911 carrera?
Old 06-15-2010, 09:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 8,243
The Bentley manual? I thought was for the 84-89 Carrera, although it has a lot of info that applies to the Turbo.

Quote:
I searched for a bentley for 930 last week but there is none? Do you guys talk about the one for the 911 carrera?
Old 06-16-2010, 03:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by A930Rocket View Post
The Bentley manual? I thought was for the 84-89 Carrera, although it has a lot of info that applies to the Turbo.
This forum is the Bentley manual for 930's. The Bentley's great for mundane stuff like how to remove the door window and other such generic 911 stuff. Otherwise, one must rely on the brain trust that resides here.

__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-16-2010, 04:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:15 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.