Another no start problem
 

Well my 80 930 does start but dies soonly after about 2 to three seconds later. So far I have replaced dizzy, wires, plugs, all vaccum hoses, wur, and metering plate switch. I don't what else could be causing this. Please help. Oh and new fuel relays.

HI

I suggest you folloe some of the advice I have been given, and take what is relevant for you. Sounds like maybe some of of will work for you.

Good luck

Jesper

Had that happen once to me. Replaced both fuel pump relays with new; still did it. Got some electrical contact cleaner in a spray can and hosed down inside the female relay plugs to clean then out. No problems since.
Of course, there are a whole host of other things than can cause this.

Does the fuel pump get a trigger from the ignition? Sounds to me that the fuel pumps is running on the start circuit, but not on the ignition circuit.

But I am not completely familiar with these cars yet.

well fuel pumps work and so does ignition. if i push down the metering plate, i can mantain the engine running. I really have no idea what would cause this.

I see that you replaced the metering plate switch. When you are pushing down on the metering plate to keep the car running, is the metering plate switch connected?

yes it is connected. when unplugged and the ignition on the pumps turn on but car doesn't keep running.

Ckeck, clean, and/or replace both fuel pump relays up front, as well as the single fuel pump fuse connections (clean, re-torque the wire nuts).

Check the connection to the overboost switch. If in doubt, unplug it and ground it to take the sensor out of the equation.

Check/clean the infamous "yellow relay" in the rear fuse panel (for 1980, it may be a round black or red).

Finally, if you've got a Lambda control circuit, then under the drivers seat would be the circuit board and relays, etc. associated with it. One of those relays is the "overspeed" relay and a bad connection there can shut down your pumps.

Checked and did everything mentioned here but the car is still the same. I think it is something with the fuel distributor but expensive to replace and then to end up not being the culprit. Anyone know what the primary system pressure is supposed to be? Thanks really appreciate the help guys.

That is an important clue. You also stated that the pumps will run with the ignition in the ON position and the metering plate switch unplugged...as it should. But in order to keep the car running you have to manually depress the metering arm (thus adding fuel). Does the arm move freely (stupid question, but had to be asked).

Something fuel delivery related, probably. Sounds like it's time for a CIS pressure testing gauge (join the club, as Jesper just did!). Can't diagnose without information. I feel like a broken record....encouraging folks to buy the guage setup, but it's such an important part of tuning and/or troubleshooting these cars.

To answer your question, "System" fuel pressure should be in the neighborhood of 6.2 - 6.5 bar (in that area, + as my memory says without going to look it up). Also check that your cold control pressure isn't too high, not allowing a rich enough mixture to keep her running when cold. Hopefully your worse case scenario is a faulty WUR...but you won't know until you test it.

Good advice
 

Hi

Rookie here, so beware. The best advice I can give you, is do what he says -Listen :) :)

If I was to take a wild guess, your control pressure is too high.

Rookie (me) I know, but you'll find out once you get the CIS tester.

I got a suggestion. (Feel free to tell him not to, if you think it is just too stupid).

Turn on the ignition and unplug the green safety wire to make the pumps run. If you have the air filter on push down gently on the CO adjuster (The one that affects the metering plate when adjusting). If you don't just push down ever so gently and very brief on the metering plate. If you have pressure in the system, don't unplug the green plug. Just push a little on the plate

Now go and crank the car. Once it "stumbles" to life, be ready with the throttle, easy know or you'll flood it. If your fault is the same as mine. This would make your car run.

9Dreizig did this when he had some problems with his WUR. That's where I got the idea
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/379783-digital-wur-34.html

Hope it helps you

Jesper

+1 What Mark said.

It sounds to me as though the metering plate switch maybe isn't turning on the fuel pumps when the motor is running.

If the switch were faulty, then leaving the metering plate switch unplugged at all times (thus the pumps would run independent of the switch, anytime the ignition was turn to ON) would take the switch out of the equation. But the arm must deflect as air is drawn across the plate in order for fuel to flow to the injectors.

I thought it was the wur and I ordered a rebuilt one. So not really sure if this is still not right. I got a tester but never knew the numbers I was supposed to get, so I'll hook it up and get back with you guys. Thanks.

Sorry guys got kind of busy with school but I got around to checking this.
I tested system pressure and got 5.9 bar. It's supposed to be 6.2-6.5. Lower than what it's supposed to be but fairly close. Could this be a problem?
I then tested the Cold pressure and got 2.3 bar compared to the 1.8-2.2 bar it's suppose to be according to the previous thread(1978 no start).

So what do you guys think about these numbers?

It's out of spec. <shrug>.

I've run a single 044 pump with system pressure at 80 PSI (5.44 bar) and dyno'd considerably in excess of 300 RWHP - I don't think that's your starting problem, although this may indicate adjustment required or an issue. It should start even with a dead pump in a dual pump setup.

Slightly high (lean). Shouldn't make it die once its running.

Exactly. Remember the issues Alan L had with a metering plate that freaked out bouncing around at idle turning the pumps on and off?

I'd be inclined to disconnect the metering plate switch for testing, see if the car ran without it in circuit and go from there.

Agreed. What I'm thinking is, if the metering plate position was incorrectly adjusted relative to the switch (or fuel pressure fluctuation was making it bounce around the switch activation point) at idle, it might not be deflecting enough to keep the pumps running.. Then it'd die a few seconds later as it consumed the fuel/pressure already in the system.

Should be easy to check.

Hi

My control pressures came out higher than that (around 2.7-2.9) I can now start the car anyways. I would guess (as they say in the above posts, that CP is not your (only) starting problem. My system pressure came out at 5.9bar as well.

Jesper

So you guys don't think it is the wur?

I think there is a pin in which you have to hit with a punch or something of that sort. Is this the adjustment that you mean? How do. I know if it's right or wrong? -the metering plate position.

So I managed to get the car up to normal operating temp and thought maybe the car wouldn't die as mentioned by spuggy earlier but it still dies if I let go of the plate.

Then while warming up there was lots of smoke(oil) that came out of the exhaust. Thinking it could be the turbo seals or something that re leaking, but don't think that would be my problem.
I accelerated the engine once warm and there was no signs of boost on the gauge.

You will not see any boost build sitting in the driveway and revving the engine.

Something is still amiss here. Could be a huge vacuum leak (intercooler plumbing seals, turbo hoses to and from, AAV/deceleration valve where it connects to the intake manifold, maybe even a plugged fuel filter). Just throwing out some ideas but running out of options.

I will check for vaccum leaks right now. I have replaced most of the hoses because I thought it was a vaccum leak at first but with no success. Thanks, I really appreciate the help.

So I found the intercooler seal torn as well as the one for the throttle. Ordered them will be here soon. The fuel filter was just replaced but I will check also.

I am new to this, but the gauge will not show boost unless its under load, like the wheels are turning. JUst revving it wont produce any movement on the needle.

I have been out of the CIS game for the better part of 2 decades, but it's always the easy ones that get us. Especially with CIS. I have chased and over thought problems. Glad to see you figured this out.

Keep us informed.

Brendon

I haven't figured it out. I found the seals torn hopefully that will keep the car running but I will see once I get the new ones on. I have checked everything that goes in and out of the intake. Tightened every single hose clamp and checked that no hoses were cracked. I tightened the bolts to the intake also just to make sure. I am positive that there are no leaks but haven't turned the car on until I get the seals.

buy a can of starting fluid too. It's a good way to chase vacuum leaks.

Seals came in today. I installed them and the problem still remains. I have no idea what to do now because I have replaced all that I could think would be the problem.

An intake backfire may have bent the metering plate? Have you checked it for smooth travel (with pumps off of course)? Is it in spec? Off hand I don't recall the clearance spec but someone here may have further input on this.
BTW in light of your tooling around with the CIS keep in mind that you can easily hydro lock your engine with fuel if your not careful.
I would have said vacuum leak causing an insufficient flow across the metering plate but it sounds like you already covered that possibility.

Kurt Williams

The metering plate has smooth travel all the way through. As for the spec. I believe that the plate has to be in the very center(narrowest point) I believe and it is like that. Not sure if that's what you mean.

Damn, this is a tough one. Lots of great input, but still....
It sounds like it's boiled down to two things. Apparently the metering plate arm is not being drawn down sufficiently to keep the switch - and thus the pumps - actuated. The engine is sucking in air, and you've proven that it will run - and run well - as long as you manually push the plate down. There must either be (1) too little air (not enough engine vacuum) to pull the plate down and keep the pumps running or (2) something is causing a drag/resistance on the metering plate arm and preventing free movement. But on second thought even those 2 theories don't hold any water because you've stated that your pumps run continuously when you disconnect the switch; thus, you should get fuel to the injectors PROVIDED the metering arm is being pulled down enough to start the flow of fuel to the injectors. God knows it's something simple we've all missed, but at this point I'm thinking fuel distriburtor issues. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the inner workings of the distributor to point you where to start looking.

I had a similar issue after removing my upper intake and I didn't get the big boot below the intercooler clamped on properly. IMO you should be looking for a large vacuum leak like a charge pipe that isn't sealing or has torn.

In my case the car would start but wouldn't stay running because air wasn't being drawn past the metering plate and therefore wouldn't add enough fuel to keep it running. Clamping the big boot on correctly fixed it.

Thanks for the help. That's what I was thinking but It will be very expensive to replace especially to end up in the same place. Guess I will take it apart and see what I can find. Thanks for the suggestions.

Sorry for this but what do you mean by upper intake? Are you talking about the airbox?

have you tried adjusting air fuel at the fuel distributor.sounds like your to lean and when you touch the flap it comes rich enough to run.this is very sensitive 1/10 turn is way to much at a time.so make sure that you know exactly where you started from.also when you push down on the adjuster it moves the metering plate so a lite touch is a must.

I was referring to this part as the "upper intake", it holds the diverter valve mechanism and is what the intercooler dumps into.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/4.jpg

The large rubber elbow that was loose on my car is the one seen here that attaches to the fuel head and the "upper intake".
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/...bff266a52a.jpg

I think he's already checked all rubber connections. That was my first thought as well with giving direction on huge vacuum or air leak, not allowing enough air to be drawn across the metering arm but it seems to have been ruled out.

Curious to know just how much you have to push down on the metering arm to get her to run. Normally it should move just a very small amount to start fuel flowing and if indeed you have to push it down quite a lot, then as mentioned by RLS262 perhaps you are way too lean and an adjustment may help. But as to why it got seriously out of adjustment in the first place is weird. Unfortunately if you start messing with the mixture adjustment on a car that isn't running, you may just compound your issues. Heck, try it if you're feeling brave...turn the thing clockwise 1/10th turn, see what happens, turn a little more and see what happens, then put it back where you started if no affect.

Are you talking about the mixture adjustment screw right in between the metering plate And the fuel distributor? I haven't messed with that but will try.

I have to push down about half an inch for it to stay running. I wouldn't doubt that it has been messed with. You know at first I took the car to a local ac shop(driving)to get it recharged and they said lines and so much other stuff was wrong. I ended up picking the car up(no longer running). I took the car to all local shops and dealers and no one was even able to mantain it on like I did. It was just a waste of time and money. That's when I decided to give it a try and see if I could fix it. It was more than likely the ac shop that messed with it.

1/2" would indicate to me that someone turned it several times,and it will take sum time playing with the plate and adjusting to get it back to idle settings.I assumed you meant you were only touching the plate slightly,not that someone tried to thighten up that loose bolt on the fuel distributor .