Is there a computer that automatically keeps AFRs ideal, regardless of pedal/rpms?

[baloo]

BASIC QUESTION: Is there a computer set-up that I can install, that will simply take throttle/rpm input, and then AUTOMATICALLY adjust fuel pressure, air, and ignition to the correct settings BASED ON MAINTAINING THE IDEAL AFR and no knock? Something that will automatically detect and adjust fuel and spark, without imprisoning my car by the need for continual adjustments, or being held hostage by the dyno-gawds.

BACKGROUND:
I've been lining up parts to boost (turbo) my stock 87 3.2 -- no internal modifications. I've read hundreds, yes hundreds, of posts regarding putting a turbo on my stock 1987 3.2/EFI -- on this website, Rennsport, TheTurboForum, DIYTurbo, etc.

The killer is not installing the turbo -- that just involves mechanicals that have been pretty well worked out by previous Pelicaners. It's getting the spark, fuel mix/pressure, and air correct over the rpm spectrum that is the problem. And inevitably, it involves going to a Tuner with a dyno who "has experience in your set-up" to TRY to resolve it for you. In my locality -- good luck, or incredible expense.

I have read numerous threads on Megasquirt, stand-alones, MSD-BTM, and getting this or that chip etc etc. After the installation of the turbo, the common theme is always - ALWAYS - working through the problems with adjusting this and that in the control of timing or fuel/air delivery. Every time, there is some quirk of wisdom that only the experienced installers knew about in the mapping. It's always some very arcane detail that would have been impossible to have picked out from the massive amount of details in reading.

I have never seen a description of a plug and play central computer control, out of the box, that does not involve fancy measurements and adjustments and readjustments, and dynos, and other contortions to get CLOSE TO CORRECT. Even the threads that I have read that claim initial success seem to come back with fuel or ignition problems within days or weeks -- and often with broken engines.


SO, HERE'S MY BASIC BASIC QUESTION:
Is there a computer set-up that I can install, that will simply take throttle/rpm input, and then AUTOMATICALLY adjust fuel pressure, air, and ignition to the correct settings BASED ON MAINTAINING THE IDEAL AFR and no knock?

- No requirement for someone to dyno it (except for bragging rights, as one Pelicaner puts it);
- No need to master the science of mapping (which, BTW, I still cannot read or understand, and I "done been to Kellege and beyond");
- I don't want to have to tell it two or three boost settings! No, I want boost when I want it -- not according to when I think I may need it.
- To heck with having to tell a chip-company what your setup is, in order to get a chip that "theoretically should match your setup" -- and every time you change something, a new chip is required (coming from my continual interactions with computer guys, this smells exactly like a dollar scam for simply doing simple keyboard work, huh...)(once the program is figured out, it's just a question of plugging in the variables and "press to imprint");
- To heck with having to continually MANUALLY adjust this or that to prevent this or that;
- To heck with having to continually buy this or that to prevent this or that;
...and especially to heck with those fatal and unforeseen occurrences in the arena of fuel/spark/air that blow the engine.

I know I speak for dozens of N/A owners on this website who have similarly aspired to boost our engines. I can tell by the threads I have read going back to at least 2004 that many aspiring boosters have dropped out of the project because they just could never get the turbo to run right due to complexities beyond their scope (and beyond the scope of their local tuners). In fact, I'll bet MOST turbo projects have been aborted! Bet, but impossible to accurately poll.

Tell me there is a straightforward computer assembly, that will automatically adjust spark and fuel in response to throttle (rpm), to maintain the ideal air-fuel ratio without knock ----- without me having to get a degree in mapping -- and not becoming a slave to the dyno-gods.

Is there one??
I welcome answers -- especially suggestions for simple control units and simple set-ups that will release me from the fears of bad AFRs, knock, overrich mixtures, etc. . Even “...no there is no such thing, but there oughta be…” will help.

Something that will automatically detect and adjust fuel and spark, without imprisoning my car by the need for continual adjustments, or being held hostage by the dyno-gawds.

Thanks, if you made it thru my frustrated rant...., and especially if you have an answer.

[drmatera]

maybe on the planet of Bubble Gum and Cotton Candy.

Seriously, no. There is no escaping the tuning process. Otherwise the factories wouldn't bother spending millions of dollars on computer advancements and tuning processes

[xbmwguy]

damn matera like the new avitar.... go megasquirt with a real conservative tune and problem solved. as d said you have to do some tuning

[s5uewf]

I have an Electromotive TECgt and I do believe it has a feature that allows you to use the wide band sensor to auto correct / auto calibrate the AFR to match the values you set as targets in your AFR table. You do need a timing map and a fuel map and an AFR map. Then, using the EGO auto feature, the ECU will self monitor and correct to achieve the AFR values - I believe. I have not studied this section of the software intently.

Check out the website for a more detailed and better explanation than I am able to give (I do not have the manual open as I type - this is from memory)

EGO Control Feedback Automation I think is the feature

[Uncle]

Simple answer is NO.

Long answer is still no adding, if they can't do it in F1 yet you sure as hell can't do it with an off the shelf EMS.

[jpnovak]

The answer is Yes and No.

I am involved in a build using a Subaru STi motor. The open source tuning allows you to adjust but, the adjustment in this case is to AFR target values. The rpm/load map is constantly in adjustment to reach a target AFR. Spark tables are adjustable, cam timing is adjustable, but actual pulse width is not adjustable. It is the first time that I have seen this level of tuning. The system takes some serious processor power and data crunching to do closed-loop tuning in real time. There are also highly developed algorithms that have very good feedback between the mass air flow going in and the AFR coming out. Its pretty trick.

Now, the No part is that I have never seen an aftermarket system that allows for this level of tuning. MS and some others have close-loop tuning cycles that are typically for idle mixture or idle speed. The MSExtra code does have a correction factor for fuel trim that can run in the background automatically. In my experience, it is OK for minor changes but don't expect miracles. Tuning the car by hand is still the best way.

I am not sure why you think that there are only arcane methods for tuning. The software on many of these systems is mostly easy to navigate if you have some understanding of how an engine works. If you can tweak carb jets or turn a mixture screw you can probably tune EFI.

As far as time constraints there usually is more time in the mechanical aspects of the installation and wiring than there is in the tuning process. I guess this just comes from experience. The process does not have to be necessarily complicated.

Have there been problematic installs? absolutely. In my opinion you get out of it what you put into it. This is the same with any fuel system.

[baloo]

Yah. Thanks to all inputs. Looks like I asked the right people the question that has always been the source of my trepidation about the whole conversion.

jpnovak -- regarding mechanics vs tuning..., I'm pretty confident about the bolting and plumbing (or in finding an answer how and where to put the pieces). But it's that larger area of my ignorance involving mapping and tuning that is daunting. Good to hear that it might be as simple as carb tuning -- however, you also mention the experience factor, which puts me back into the dark or having to study a subject that initially was just a passing interest.

s5uwef - I checked out the Electromotive TECgt website. Yah, that's pretty close, but keerist, it ain't cheap, huh. I wonder what the Chinese have developed/copied that might be comparable for 1/3 the price.

xBMW -- I'm thinking Megasquirt, and I did check their website, but, like all of you have said, there's no escaping having to "learn calculus", huh. MS seems to be a common system used by Pelicaners, so probably a good source for troubleshooting.

I guess I'll put all the pieces together (the mechanicals) and then spark it up and see if anything breaks, and tune from there?

[Tippy]

I have a chip for 55lb injectors and over 1-bar of boost made for your engine.

All you need is a rising rate FPR from Protomotive (my Protomotive chip of course) and your EFI will be done.

I'd trade you FPR's for a small amount of cash if you were local.

Pretty simple. It's really plug and play.....

No adjustments would be needed.

[baloo]

Tippy,
Do you have the 55lb injectors?
I have a Begi RRFPR that came with a kit purchase from another Pelicaner (along with a rebuilt 3LDZ, and standard 930 J-pipe, using stock heat exchangers) .
Mind you, I have not changed any of my 3.2 engine's internals (Nikasils), so I understand that my max boost should not be over .5bar.

So, would your chip work with my setup?
PM me.
Thanks.

Originally Posted by Tippy

I have a chip for 55lb injectors and over 1-bar of boost made for your engine.

All you need is a rising rate FPR from Protomotive and your EFI will be done.

Pretty simple.

[Tippy]

Yes, it'd work as long as you had 55lb injectors. Mine are still installed so I don't have any for sale.

Your DME needs to be an 8K to work. If it is not, it's a simple mod to turn your 2K or 4K into one.

[Tippy]

So, here's the list off top of my head:

1. Proto chip (I'll sell cheap compared to new. They don't wear out or degrade AFAIK)
2. BEGI regulator you have now
3. Find out if stock pump is capable of supporting fuel flow for 0.5-bar of boost. If not, install a Bosch -044 (this pump for sure is more than enough).
4. 55 lb injectors to match chip. You could run 60 lbs too and be fine. It was a little lean at idle and cruise, so a little bigger would be fine. Know someone here was selling some.
5. Enjoy!

[Tippy]

I finally read your entire post.

This is how my chip works with boost:

1. You go to WOT, and the chip goes to an ignition map for boost (retards timing across RPM range). The chip map changes are triggered by the WOT switch on side of the throttle body.

That's it!

Now, how does the chip know how much fuel to inject during boost? It doesn't. It never will.

The RRFPR simply multiplies fuel pressure and you have more fuel to match boost (injector open/closing timing is part of WOT map and doesn't change with boost).

Voila!

So, that's why I said there's no adjustments to make. You can adjust the airflow meter if you like to richen or lean and/or the fuel quality switch on the DME, but more than likely, you don't need to.

It's plug and play.

[Beetspeed]

Originally Posted by baloo

BASIC QUESTION: Is there a computer set-up that I can install, that will simply take throttle/rpm input, and then AUTOMATICALLY adjust fuel pressure, air, and ignition to the correct settings BASED ON MAINTAINING THE IDEAL AFR and no knock? Something that will automatically detect and adjust fuel and spark, without imprisoning my car by the need for continual adjustments, or being held hostage by the dyno-gawds.

Is there one??
I welcome answers -- especially suggestions for simple control units and simple set-ups that will release me from the fears of bad AFRs, knock, overrich mixtures, etc. . Even “...no there is no such thing, but there oughta be…” will help.

Something that will automatically detect and adjust fuel and spark, without imprisoning my car by the need for continual adjustments, or being held hostage by the dyno-gawds.

Thanks, if you made it thru my frustrated rant...., and especially if you have an answer.

Short answer(s): yes, there are several stand-alone ECU's that have working closed-loop fuelling.

No, none of those use or have closed-loop spark control and adjustment (never even heard of that one, besides a Saab OEM ionisation system).

For knock control using spark advance retardation there is actually an excellent stand-alone system we have discussed before on this forum (J&S).


I use a DTA S60pro ecu for the closed loop fuelling for many years like that now. It plain works backed-up with logs to prove it and saved my engine many times when I ran into too small injectors or a badly installed fuel pump.
It also stores the corrections it makes, so the tuner (you) can decide to use them or not.

Same holds true for the active cylinder selective knock control (Vampire model from J&S using wasted spark setting): many times saved my engine from stupid mistakes or whatever happened when I decides to 'upgrade' something. We all know how that goes..

This is all 5-10 year old technology, common on other platforms. I am still amazed how little of the 930 community uses this.

Best regards,
Walter

[Uncle]

A good EMS and a tune is alot cheaper than a new motor. You're dong it wrong if you think otherwise.
Put it this way EMS stands for Engine Management System. What happens to a buisness with poor management?
It fails.
What about one with a manager who fixes mistakes after they happen?
It sort of works but is doomed in the long run.
Now what about if you have a manager who has set his staff in this case injerctors,turbo etc clear tasks and over sees all their work?
It works. Everyone knows what to do,when to do it and for how long.

Its about control. The more you have the better it works.

As for this gem.

I wonder what the Chinese have developed/copied that might be comparable for 1/3 the price.

Nothing, nothing at all. Again are you happy to trust your engine to the cheapest thing you can find?

I am not having a dig at you I'm just pointing out the facts. You get nothing for nothing. The less you spend the less you get.
As for your first post and the thoughts about needing to have things redone more than once. If this needs to happen you're doing it wrong. It should be install correctly. Tune. Forget. The only way you need to retune ever is if you make a change.
People do dumb things like getting the EMS to also act as the driver for the coils. Sure you can do it but why load it up for no reason? Use LS1 coils get a crazy amount of spark they drive them selves and place no load on the EMS. Its no harder to wire up and they cost bugger all.


FYI I am doing this exact thing right now. Adding boost to a 3ltr SC motor. I've gone with a Haltech sprint 500. Will it cost more to buy and set up than my new turbo? Yep. Do I care? Nope.

[baloo]

Incredible amount of expertise and input. Incredible. Can't thank all enough. The broad spectrum of responses, while each of you having success with your ends of the spectrum, tells me that there is no single answer, AND that it all might not be as complex as it has seemed to me.

Tippy -- I PMd you.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by Uncle

A good EMS and a tune is alot cheaper than a new motor. You're dong it wrong if you think otherwise.
Put it this way EMS stands for Engine Management System. What happens to a buisness with poor management?
It fails.
What about one with a manager who fixes mistakes after they happen?
It sort of works but is doomed in the long run.
Now what about if you have a manager who has set his staff in this case injerctors,turbo etc clear tasks and over sees all their work?
It works. Everyone knows what to do,when to do it and for how long.

Its about control. The more you have the better it works.

As for this gem.


Nothing, nothing at all. Again are you happy to trust your engine to the cheapest thing you can find?

I am not having a dig at you I'm just pointing out the facts. You get nothing for nothing. The less you spend the less you get.

Walter,
Thanks for the analogy -- good one, and it helps me understand the big picture. However, my problem/obstacle is gaining the knowledge to "be a good manager and set clear tasks." THAT's the essence of my dilemma. I don't know the tasks (BTW, I'm sure you also have had PLENTY of managers who didn't know what they were doping -- and STILL continued up the ladder, huh.

As to the Chinese issue -- it's inevitable that something that can be analyzed and then given prescribed solutions, can then be computerized. Inevitable. And the price?? A question of time before competition overcomes proprietary intellectual
ownership. Look at the 4-function calculators in 1967 (over $100 back then, now under $1 for dozens of functions), or better yet, flat screen TVs just 5 years ago, once over $1000 for a simple 26", now under $300 for 50" LEDs.
I think the computerized engine controller companies have not yet been the target of copy cats. Just a question of time.

And quality? Just a question of time before the Chinese go thru the same evolution that the Japanese went thru -- 50s/60s "made in Japan" meant cheap junk. Now, Made in Japan means Lexus -- undeniably and embarrassingly besting our own best efforts. Yikes, how could we let that happen.

So, tell me what your EMS will do, and the cost? Does it detect knock and compensate for it also?
Thanks.

[Ronnie's.930]

What happened to the rad Porsche engine pic?

[Uncle]

I work in the manufacture explosives. Bad managers don't last long. We do get them now and again but they are gone within a few months. You can't fake it.

Yes, there are lots of crap managers out there. Take the brand "EMS" otherwise known as Engine Munching Systems for example..

Today, the time you are asking the question. There are no Chinese systems you can buy so its a moot point.

Now the qaulity question. I am lucky I live in Australia we have always been world leaders in this stuff.
MoTeC > Corporate > About Us
Haltech - Engine Management Systems
Autronic - Fuel Injection Systems, ECU
Adaptronic - Energise Your Engine!

This is what I bought. Its the lower end of the Haltech lines but for the job I require it to do its plenty.
Specs.
Platinum Sprint 500 | Haltech - Engine Management Systems

I know the dealer so I got a little off the price but its the best part of $1000 + sensors and putting it in the car. In the end its going to cost me ~2k

[Tippy]

I PM'd back.

The Chinese can easily duplicate any EMS system AFAIK. I'm new to the electronics building business but what I know, the Chinese can build EMS's and build a helluva lot more than we can in the same timeframe.

[SteamWolf]

Originally Posted by Uncle

I am lucky I live in Australia we have always been world leaders in this stuff.

Dude!! You can't say that here!