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-   -   Suspension upgrade project using Rebel Racing bits (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/759756-suspension-upgrade-project-using-rebel-racing-bits.html)

speednme1 07-09-2013 06:16 PM

I would like to add to what Ken stated about Clint. I too ordered parts(935 spring plates, front and rear bushings) yesterday(Kenny's fault..lol). Parts were shipped out this morning. Clint was vey personable and easy to talk to.

gsxrken 07-10-2013 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwasbury (Post 7538924)
Re: the through body front anti-roll bar, I think fuel tank removal is pretty much mandatory for installation. Its also recommended to weld the mounts in I believe, and weld the drop link attachment points onto the front control arms.

Jacob, I hadn't heard that welding the mounts in was advised, but I haven't even read the directions yet. Is it under any stress? I wouldn't have thought it should even touch the bar, but again I haven't gotten this far yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFairman (Post 7539060)
I installed the trailing arm monoballs without removing the trailing arms from the car. I didn't even remove the calipers or the emergency brake cables.. I just disconnected the stainless braided brake lines I have on the rear brakes lines so I could remove the trailing arms far enough to do the work while laying on the ground under the car.
...Call me crazy but thats how I did it and it wasn't easy but wasn't real difficult either.

Jim, thank you for posting your approach here. I will definitely attempt to follow how you did it, rather than tackle the much bigger job of removing the arms again. I was 10 years younger but I think that wheel bearing job still took me over 10 hours to do both sides. If I knew any better then, I would have changed that bushing when they were out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 7539866)
Also, you may need to do some sanding of the torsion tube and filing of the aluminum insert in order to get the spring plate bushings to install properly. There is a lot of variation in that area from the factory it seems. The rubber bushings didn't really need a precision fit.

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe the freezer and the torch can help out here too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speednme1 (Post 7539987)
I would like to add to what Ken stated about Clint. I too ordered parts(935 spring plates, front and rear bushings) yesterday(Kenny's fault..lol). Parts were shipped out this morning. Clint was vey personable and easy to talk to.

Speed- don't blame me for your own insanity. You have to start a thread on what you're up to. Clint's bushings don't even constitute a rounding error on your ride!

JFairman 07-10-2013 02:27 PM

I'm glad to help with descriptions like that.

I don't remember removing any of the CV joints and axles either. I think I even left the rear shocks attached to the trailing arms to hold the heavy end up.
I have tarret adjustable rear sway bar drop links and I did unbolt them from the spring plates. I have weltmeister adjustable spring plates on the car.

It's heavy with the rotor and caliper still on it but you can move it around enough and pin up the small end against the sway bar with a floor jack to hold it in place while heating up the small end and hammering out that steel sleave the origonal rear bushings are pressed into.

gsxrken 07-10-2013 02:41 PM

The front arms are off to the powder coater.
I have no idea how my control arms even moved on those bushings. Besides being out of round which you can see somewhat in this pic, the arm barely moved even after it was free of the strut ball joint. It just stuck out and if I pushed it down, it mostly twisted the bushing and popped back up when I released it.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-p...7_+8_21_28.jpg

Getting them off is easy, a little heat and then when the bushing starts crackling, just twist it all off with a screwdriver.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0...7_+9_13_51.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8...7_+9_13_51.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5...7_+9_13_51.jpg

After four of them, you can detect the smell of rubber in any room of the house.
Smells like... victory.

The Tarrett bars require the old style (pre-73) sway bar bracket. So I had to remove the loop on each arm:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-a...7_+9_13_51.jpg

Chisel off the remains of the sway bar end loop"
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u...7_+9_13_51.jpg

And grind it all away to make room for the older bracket:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-k...7_+9_13_51.jpg
Here's a shot of the new style:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w...8-no/image.jpg

Into the parts washer and then off to the powder coater:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v...7_+9_13_51.jpg

Flieger 07-10-2013 04:20 PM

Mask off the areas where you will be epoxying the race onto the arm. That will save you the trouble of sanding it off later.

To be clear, the arm is not supposed to move in the rubber bushings. That is what makes them "silentblocks". The suspension motion is accomodated by the rubber twisting like a torsion bar (it does add a small amount of spring rate). Clint's bushings use a dry lubricant so that there is a smooth rotation while getting rid of the deflection of the rubber in the radial and axial directions which cause the alignment to change.

I would recommend against the hot&cold method when fitting the bushings. The fit is tight already and it could make something bind if it is shrink-fitted and expands to be out-of-round. Clint has a small portable lathe to allow him to reduce the diameter of the aluminum piece if the torsion tube is really bad (like one side of my car was) but normally it is rusty and so a pick and various tools in an electric drill will get the diameter back to round enough. It can be a little loose because the epoxy will take up the gap and when you assemble everything without the torsion bar it ensures that the epoxy sets with the bushing properly aligned.

speednme1 07-10-2013 04:38 PM

Wow Ken, that is some serious work there. I need to get my skills up...:(

fredmeister 07-10-2013 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwasbury (Post 7538924)
Great project Ken.

I made my life more difficult by opting for monoballs for the trailing arm to chassis mounts. Pretty much impossible to install without complete removal of the trailing arm. If you are just refreshing the factory rubber in there, I think you can do this with a "partial drop." I am sure that air tools will help. Looks like you already removed the ball joints...those were a real ***** for me, so you appear to be getting along smoothly.

Re: the through body front anti-roll bar, I think fuel tank removal is pretty much mandatory for installation. Its also recommended to weld the mounts in I believe, and weld the drop link attachment points onto the front control arms. Curious to see how you get on with this because I stayed with factory anti-roll bars, so this is another upgrade I could consider for my ride.

Not really required to remove the tank. I think I did it with it in place but it made getting to the reinforcement plates more difficult. Its been awhile so I dont remember exactly how I did it.
I was able to remove the rear t-bars through the small round hole in the rear fender that is covered by the cover plate. Its just removed with the small little nut that sandwiches it between the inner and outer wall of the fender.

Its gonna be a nice project tot ackle and the ride will be much improved in the car.

Fred

gsxrken 07-12-2013 03:08 PM

I got my control arms and front tow hook covers for them back from the powder coater. I had welded on the drop link bracket prior to PC so now it's all nice-nice in a chassis black coating.
I made sure he didn't coat the bearing surfaces, and I just checked and the RSR bushings slide right on with no issues. Perhaps Flieger you were only referring to the rear plates.
In either case, I can resume the front end assembly.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b...7_12_18_49.jpg

I did some searching on welding in the sway bar brackets due to Jacob's note. Actually, I couldn't find reference to welding in the triangular bracket, but there are a few examples of guys welding in a reinforcement piece of metal around the area were the bar passes through the tub. The 914 guys seem to sandwich the tub sheet metal with two thicker pieces and drill through all three to beef up the area. But in general it appears that as long as the bars adjustment are within the proper orientation, it is not necessary. It appears that when the link is adjusted near straight up or straight out and cannot articulate further, then the bar can go solid and introduce way too much stress to the bushing area and tear the sheet metal. The vast amount of users of these bars have had no welding nor any issues.
I'll post up more progress when I can get back under the car... I'm up to my nose in a bathroom remodeling project as well.

Flieger 07-12-2013 03:30 PM

I meant both. Powder coating usually makes shafts too big for the race to fit over. Looks like everything is good.

gsxrken 07-17-2013 06:22 PM

A few progress notes...
One of the leaps of faith with the through the body sway bars (on the later cars that did not come with them) is drilling the sheetmetal for the bushings. The Tarrett instructions assume you have the holes already, and if not, see your authorized dealer for the adapter mounts and control arm u-channel.
There is an indentation under the stock body schutz where you can see where a sway bar might go. I buzzed off the undercoating with a wire wheel and got down to this:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--...7_17_22_+2.jpg

The next step is to drill out an 1-1/8" hole and the three holes for the bushing-to-bracket bolts. Again, there is some trepidation in drilling into the tub irreversibly and without any sense of precision...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...7_17_22_+2.jpg

On the passenger side, it was easy to use a telescoping magnet to maneuver the backing plate bracket down to the new holes, catch it with my fingers and secure it with the bolts. The drivers side was a bit more challenging, but snaking a coat hanger from the wheel well through the holes and up alongside the gas tank allowed me to loop the bracket onto the coat hanger and then fish it back out towards the hole until I could catch this one with my fingers as well. Absolutely no need to remove the gas tank on this 1986 930.

A trial fitting of the bushing to make sure I could catch all three bolts:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C...7_17_22_+2.jpg

And then a quick touch up with rattle can on the exposed metal, and miraculously the sway bar slid right through one bushing and appeared through the other one on the far side. I was relieved that it lined up so well! I can twist the bar with a thumb and forefinger and it spins with very little effort.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c...7_17_22_+2.jpg

I installed one control arm with the new bushings, and after some fiddling with the concave/convex washer, got it nicely adjusted so that it falls from horizontal to vertical from its own weight. I now need to do some searching on how to set the torsion bar adjuster end cap. I'm not clear on what postion the arm should be in when I try this.

Flieger 07-17-2013 06:43 PM

Some people turn the clevis on the A-arm 90 degrees from the factory orientation so that the bolt goes laterally and is therefore parallel to the sway bar axis. Gives more freedom for adjusting the bar and the other axis of misalignment isn't as critical with lowered, stiffened cars. You can basically just assemble the sway bar and put the A-arm at the angle it will be when on the ground and see where it needs to go, then just try to match it to the other side.

Flieger 07-17-2013 06:45 PM

Mine is in the factory orientation.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5257/5...de5de6ee_z.jpg
Front Suspension Geometry_ 019 by Max_911S_fahrer, on Flickr

gsxrken 07-21-2013 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 7555514)
Some people turn the clevis on the A-arm 90 degrees from the factory orientation so that the bolt goes laterally and is therefore parallel to the sway bar axis. Gives more freedom for adjusting the bar and the other axis of misalignment isn't as critical with lowered, stiffened cars. You can basically just assemble the sway bar and put the A-arm at the angle it will be when on the ground and see where it needs to go, then just try to match it to the other side.

A great idea but I already welded mine in the stock orientation prior to powdercoating. Clint had sent a picture with the center to center measurement and I zapped it in.

I have all but finished the front suspension work. I have the control arms on new bushings, the sway bars installed and finger tight for now, the new strut inserts installed, and the 22mm torsion bars in place. I really need to have the car down on its own weight for the next steps to tighten everything up and adjust the sway bar down link length. One of the next steps is to figure out where I need to put the torsion bar adjuster. With the new bushings, the arm swings down as far as the strut will allow it. I'm not sure where to orient the splined adjuster arm so that it will be roughly centered in the crossmember when I'm at my desired ride height. I guess it will be a trial and error process.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Y...7_21_21_30.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t...7_21_21_28.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e...7_21_21_28.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-q...7_21_21_28.jpg

gsxrken 07-21-2013 07:08 PM

Forgot to mention the easiest part of the job- probably because it was so easy it took up no bandwidth. The strut tower brace is installed by removing tow of the upper strut mount bolts and replacing with two longer bolts that secure the bar's eyelets. Couldn't be less drama.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i...7_21_21_29.jpg

The rest of the work is decidedly more time consuming. If it wasn't for a nice array of air tools, I would probably have maimed myself at some point, and from a time standpoint I would definitely still be out there. As it is, I need only to lower the car and adjust/tighten everything and take it for a ride. I've lost 2 weeks of in-season seat time and might wait for later in the year for the rear. Kind of not in the mood for it right now, either.

speednme1 07-21-2013 08:05 PM

C'mon Ken, time to cowboy up and finish that rear..lol. Jk man I know you have other things going on. The front came out sweet, can't wait to see it on the ground.

gsxrken 07-26-2013 09:10 AM

Time for a few more updates. I have completed the front end. The control arm adjuster "ears" were fine right where I had them. With the suspension at full droop, I installed the arm as far down as it could go in the crossmember and put maybe three or four threads of the bolt showing. When I put the car on the ground, it was too low but reaching under and cranking in a few turns and I'm back at my original ride height.

I set the front Tarrett bar to the softest position; I don't know whether at that setting the new bar is even as stiff as my 1986 stock (larger than earlier turbos) 22mm bar that I removed. In any case I thought I'd start there, and I took the car out for a quick 5 mile spin. I must say I need to move on to the rear refresh sooner rather than later. The car was definitely smoother in hitting road imperfections, which is a bit counter-intuitive since I removed rubber bushings and replaced with teflon-like bushings throughout) and the front end was definitely firmer on low-speed dips and whoops in the road. But the car still waggles on quick right-left, right-left jerks of the steering wheel. Of course the rear suspension is 27 years old and has 100k miles on it, but if there was ever any doubt, the rear suspension is as important as the front in terms of responsive turn-in. So I will move onto the rear work next week rather than wait til winter.

I also jumped at the opportunity to get some very nice Forgeline's from a friend of Rey's. They are 17s, which to my eye still fit the era of the car while offering a stiffer sidewall and a wider tire choice than my stock 7x9 16s (albeit not as wide a choice as 18s).
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R...7_26_12_35.jpg

Right now as Rey said above, I'm all over the place. One of the bathrooms is completely under renovation to restore balance in the household given the 930's recent updates.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-q...7_26_12_45.jpg

And now we're off for some time upstate for some ATV and 2nd Amendment exercising. So the car will have to sit a bit more.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O...7_26_12_47.jpg

IMR-Merlin 07-26-2013 10:32 AM

Looks good Ken.. You will really enjoy the ride with Clint's stuff. I have it in my 930, but the car is not done yet. I did a full set up, including coil overs on a friends Carerra and he loves it.

Flieger 07-26-2013 10:38 AM

Those quads look like fun!

You are making the right decision to do the rear right away. It controls the behavior of the car. That is why Porsche went to so much effort with the passive rear steering on the 964, then the multilink 993,996,997, and now the active rear-steer 991 GT3, all the while keeping the tried and true strut setup on the front.

fraggle 07-30-2013 04:25 PM

Beautiful work!

gsxrken 08-06-2013 09:07 AM

Thanks Fraggle and welcome to the board.
I began the rear suspension work this weekend.
First one needs to disconnect the rear arm from the spring plate. Before fully disconnecting, I took an angle measurement with an inclinometer level:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H...8_+5_19_+5.jpg

to get the torsion bar out, I needed to pull off part of the rubber trim and peel back the vinyl black sticker on the rear quarter:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7...8_+5_19_+5.jpg
Then I could remove the cover plate on the rocker so the torsion bar could come out.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Q...8_+5_19_+5.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7...8_+5_19_+5.jpg

Bushings in both arms were deformed where the rubber had cold-flowed around the weight of the torsion bar supported car. These provided years of good service and deserve retirement now.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w...8_+5_19_+5.jpg

Down to the torch, vise and wire wheel grinder to get the bushings off and cleaned up:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z...8_+6_12_17.jpg

As the directions suggest (and Flieger pointed out somewhere in this post), the arms required a few passes with a flat file to allow the inner bushings to slide on:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N...8_+6_12_17.jpg

Last shot of bushings oriented loosely on the arms before I JB-Weld the bushings on and had to quit:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-a...8_+6_12_17.jpg



This job is very doable by the backyard mechanic. Air tools make it easier but there is just no rushing possible. The car is going to down for a while unless you can blast out 8 hour days in succession. And I have yet to tackle the frame bushing. JFairman posted that it is possible with the arms in the car and I am going to try that soon.


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