Replacing the turbo hasn't been so simple...
 

Good morning all,
Thanks in advance for reading, and offering any insight to a fried mind...Little background: 1986 930, in the passed 6 months, gutted most smog equipment - still have thermo switch, added rarlyl8 headers w/o heat to already included Kokeln IC, Tial WG...Blew turbo seals about a month ago, and decided to buy another KKK/K27 turbo from TK...Thought it would be a simple switch, but found the 1/4 mile I continued driving after the turbo seal failure resulted in oil being blown and sucked into and through just about everywhere...Lots of cleaning, and then some more as it soaked brand new plugs right upon install!!!Car would not start until I blew all the crap out by turning her over w/o plugs...
So now she's starting, low 800 RPM cold, maybe a slight stumble...The warmer she gets the more sputtering and lean, I suppose, she gets and start backfiring, but more like fire cracking...AFR's go lean, 15's - low 16's, and when I come to a stop, idle stumbles and eventually dies...I let her cool down about 15 min. and was able to get home 3 blocks away...
This morning I found if I pull rear fuel relay, closest to windshield, idle increases...No change when pulling relay up front...All I did was switch the turbo, but I got soon much more...Maybe I'll try disconnecting O2 sensor???
I know I should check fuel pressures and flow...I am waiting on CIS tester gauge...I searched for air leaks, cracked lines numerous times, and - for my level of knowledge and understanding, I'm just about at the end of the road...Any suggestions are appreciated...

Others will have better info I'm sure. But, while we all try to apply the KISS principle troubleshooting, thinking "ok, what did I change?" remember is not unusual for other things to fail coincidentally or or possibly even caused by other failures or changes - especially on a 30 year old car.

Cold idle s/b faster than that, 1,200 ish, dropping to I think 850 +/1 50 after 2 minutes. The WUR does this by increasing control pressure, and therefore leaning mixture, as it warms up.

If you are idling at 800 and the sputtering and dieing or close to it as the engine warms up it sounds to me like like you are starting out ok-ish on mix and then getting too lean as the WUR increases control pressure.

In turn that indicates an intake air leak, or a fuel delivery problem. The fact that you have issues relating to your fuel pump could very well be related. I'd consider doing the fuel delivery/flow rate tests too. I find that 6 graduated baby bottles work well for that.

Thanks Flight,
I know its a process of elimination, but its a whole lot easier going through with the most recent changes made...I tried deleting the O2 sensor, no change...It feels like a fuel issue - as it looks in AFR's - but I hear the fuel pumps buzzing - but pulling the rearmost relay increases the idle...And it hiccups like a major air leak...Thermo-time valve???
Its starting to feel like Linear Algebra, not so straightforward - or too much so for me to grasp...Will try the fuel volume test while I wait on CIS test kit...By the way, if anyone has step by step procedure for cold pressure, etc tests, I would be indebted to you...I haven't been able to find The Idiots Guide to it!!!

When I resealed my crankcase breather cover and all the leaky switches and sensors back there I replaced my termo valve (is this the one you are talking about, there are several things with very similar names). After a week of driving one of the lines fell off causing a bunch of weird bucking, idling, and other similar issues. Its worth putting a hand on that or any other vacuum lines that you touched.

Do a search for the workshop manuals. There's several pages with pictures and diagrams. Somewhere they are on line.

Yeah, I've read quite a bit about that little double-nippled thingie back there...Some have deleted it, some have experimented by switching the lines...its essentially an emissions thing, but I try not to "fix" anything unless its broken, so to speak - so I leave it alone...It's just that the hiccups seem to come upon me as the engine warms up...I haven't taken her out since the last drive a couple days ago, where she went lean, started stuttering when I gave her gas, and firecracker-backfired like a .17 HMR varmint round...

You must have had the IC off and maybe some other stuff, to clean out the oil. Would pay, as already suggested, to make sure all the plumbing into, behind and beneath the IC is intact. Sounds like an airleak, altho you cannot eliminate WUR pressures at the moment. But starting with KISS, I would be looking at the hoses.
Alan

Man, I've had the dang IC and airbag off so many times by now, I'm sick...Fuel output through injectors is good - equal through all 6...Had extra red relays, switched others out, now when I pull individual relays, idle comes way down - would probably die if I didn't pop relay back in...
So, right now as I finish the day, there seems a slight miss in the idle, both cold, and when warmer...Can drive around the block after cold start, but as she reaches temp, she goes leaner and leaner, and more difficult to get her home...The miss gets more pronounced, I would say, while trying to get her home and up the driveway...I CANNOT find a leak, a compromised hose, a leaky gasket or injector...All I can find is a thermo-valve in the back - with 2 nipples - that I can rotate by hand...not the metal base, just the plastic cap unit with the nipples...Does that tighten onto the base, or is that sign that it faulty???I can't find info on the specific physical properties of the enigma that it is...Thanks in advance...

That double nipple unit is a thermo valve that delays Vac advance on the dizzy on a cold engine. Won't let it see vac advance til it warms up. Once the valve opens it will allow Vac to pass to the dizzy. If it has no hoses on it, then that is just a crankcase leakage if not sealed properly.
Alan

anybody know if this thermo-valve spins upon the base unit that screws into the case, or should it be solid on its base???does it tighten onto it, or does the fact that mine rotates mean its toast???
I've got hoses on it, going to TB and Dizzy creating the circle of confusion...I just wonder if its busted, can I delete it and send hoses direct to destination - and just make sure I never hit boost before reaching temp...I never do as a practice anyway...

w......2
This wiring diagram might help. It shows all the wiring and emission control devices that can be removed to setup the car to pre-86 (non-emissions) configuration.
This removes all the unnecessary junk and might help narrow down the problem.
Some of my other diagrams are also available from links in this thread setup by Tremelune.
Good luck

I don't like this thing on the advance side.
it also blocks vacuum RETARD to the dist if you go on boost when cold.
I connected mine to the vac retard. gives a little more idle when cold.

get use to removing the IC. if you have the stock air breather/filter that will be just as bad very soon.

with the air filter off and engine running you can push down or pull up on the air sensor plate to do a rough check of the mixture.
down makes it richer
check power at the plug to the warm up reg (WUR)
did you get the vac lines crossed going to the dist
the one that has vac on it at idle goes on the inside port
are the Orings on the IC good
90 degree boot to the turbo connected good
rubber boot from turbo to IC tight

while waiting for the new turbo, there was ALOT of oil to drain out of the exhaust...the O2 sensor was drowning in it...I also changed oil, air, and fuel filters...Could the O2 sensor be compromised? could the fuel filter be faulty enough to cause a rough running? O-rings are good, lines and hoses good...the connection from K27 turbo to adapter was not like the fit with the former turbo, but I got it on there completely, O-rings intact...No one knows about the turning of the thermo valve plastic upon the metal plug base, huh???

i would have to look at mine.

I dumped a few qts of oil in my exhaust too. it should NEVER rust out.
man what a smoke screen. I did try to clean it out but it still smoked like crazy.

check to make sure the frequency valve is vibrating.
I know my brother runs his WO the O2 and it is fine.

That thermo valve is normally inline between the vacuum port on the TB just below the throttle plate (front of TB from perspective of normal vehicle motion), to the left hand pot on the dizzy. In the stock config there may also be some other doodads in that line, I wouldn't know as most of that stuff is long gone on mine.

I do how however that that thermo valve is solid. Nothing should be spinning. My recommendation to you is to nip off to Pep Boys and get their Whitman's Sampler of vaccum line fittings. In among all the bits and pieces will be a straight through piece that you can use to simply take the thermo valve out of the vac line and hook up the two ends together.

Those thermo valves are made of almost-unobtainium. When I re-sealed my crankcase breather area last year I had to special order from Germany and took for every and I think $130 or something. Should have just plugged the hole.

A crank case leak there will eventually cause a nasty oily mess, but won't cause the poor running, but a vacuum leak could definitely contribute to that observed behavior.

Yes, it should not be spinning. It suggests the press fit seal is no longer. Which may be able to initiate a small leak. I suspect that is not the cause - something bigger. But you can in fact eliminate it by hooking a tube over both ends of the nipples - ie looping them together. Then join the two tubes you had running to it. You have then disabled the switch and any small leak it may have had will not feed into your air/vac system. But given the lean issue seems related to the engine hitting temp, I would look closely at those lines. It may be a clue something not right in that part of the system.
Alan

Thanks guys...will try when I get home from work...I remember exactly how the nipples were oriented before I found they "clicked" clockwise...I suppose, if it IS at least part of the issue, a little sealant and some cure-time might keep me from creating a "Parallelogram of Death" in the future...We'll see...By now I've futzed beyond all recollection with mixture and idle adjustments, so that'll be another task...

I don't think it matters which way the nipples. It is simply a temp activated switch interrupting the vac/boost signal from the TB if my memory is right. I am nowhere near my car right now.
Alan

You could try testing that line from the switch to the dizzy, to see if it can hold a vacuum or boost signal (Mighty Vac pump). If the can or the line had a leak, that would explain the symptoms - air leak into the TB when the switch activates.
Alan

OK guys, I tried bypassing the switch, immediately setting the engine into a low, sputtering growl, with an intermittent miss - like a good kick in the pants...something new, or more pronounced is now amiss...Fuch...So I went ahead and included the switch in the loop, since its definitely not the primary culprit - but I didn't lose the bucking at low sputter to death idle...I'm tired, I can't even remember if that's too rich or too lean...I went through and checked exhaust nuts and bolts...evrything I address is fine...I am chasing a ghost...

Did you try the test on cold or warm engine? If cold, you put dizzy vac advance on the cold engine, which will change things (the sw should have been shutting this signal off). If warm, did you blank the ports on the switch? You could check the sw function by sucking on a tube on either nipple. Cold, should be shut, warm, open. But a useful test would be to see if the line from sw to dizzy can hold vac. maybe suck on it and place tube over tongue - see if suction holds, if no Mighty Vac.
Alan

if you bypassed the TTV and the RPM went DOWN I think the TTV may be leaking.
if not leaking it may not be working(unless the engine is cold) and that line is connected to the vac retard
I would bypass it for now and run the vac line directly to the dist.
then verify you vac on the INSIDE port at idle and it goes away when you rev the engine.

I don't think there's any need to "blank the ports" on the thermo valve. It just opens one side of the valve to the other, it doesn't go anywhere. The back (inside the case) part of that device is a solid brass piece.

On a cold engine, RPM dropped to a sputter before dying altogether...TTV must be defective...I can keep engine alive giving it some gas, but there's a lumpy kick in its rumble that I don't like...makes the whole engine appear to swivel right to left, like what is normal when looking at my vanagon engine from above...maybe I criss-crossed plug wires...Hell, now I'm second guessing all the new components I recently replaced - rotor, dist. cap, plugs, filters, plugs...Will try sucking and blowing the vacuum system later this afternoon, though it feels as if I am already on my knees...

oh man, you didn't mention you'd replaced all those in your initial post. Did you do all that at the same time before the issues started?

I'd make sure the distrib cap is on properly, sometimes the back clip on mine fools me that its on properly but its not. Double check plug wires are routed correctly and that they are firmly and positively clipping on to the plugs and onto the distrib cap. I use a smear of silicone grease on the cap to help them go on and keep moisture out.

I'd pull the plugs and check them. Try ohming them out - look for 5kO, check they aren't fuel or oil fouled, check the ceramic for cracks (I automatically bin any plug that has been dropped or kicked regardless). If any are fuel fouled it might be worth pulling your fuel pump relays and distrib cap and cranking the engine a bit without the plugs in to ensure you aren't flooded.

You could always put the old rotor back in to eliminate that.

Thanks flight...I did all that when I discover just how much oil got circulated around...new plugs were wet with fuel/oil as soon as I put them in, so I blew the crap out until I could start the car...I've covered those bases, but Can never rule out the possibility of knocking something else out of whack every time my hands go into the engine abyss to fetch a dropped bolt, check a wire, tie wrap a vacuum line etc...Nowadays, can't even rule out the potential for a lemon in a brand new ignition component, that's why I have the passed 3 ignition tune ups stowed away in boxes - if I could only remember where...will check wires this afternoon...

Yes - I think you must be right. Makes sense, sorry. Mine has been disabled/blanked off since I had the car.
Alan

Little very embarrassing update: the poor running as of late was because "somebody" reconnecting spark wires onto dist. cap in childlike fashion - as if to say, I think only 2 plug wires coincided with actual, useful spark...new dist. cap, guess I hadn't marked it up, excited that it might be the elixir to the running ailment...So, I'm back to where I started: perfect cold start, smooth drivability until reaching temperature, then she farts up a storm with increase in RPM's, slightly sputtering along...No more backfires, but definitely not right...Gotta go back and delete the TTV again...I got CIS gauge and lines today...might as well learn something new...
Just a question that seems an obvious answer, but I do not know it: Can a brand new turbo be faulty out of the box???Its the same as what I replaced, but when revving up in idle, I hear it winding up so much clearer...and I'm only pumping 3000 RPM's in the garage...Just curious...and desperate...Thanks....

hearing it does not mean its bad, that's the sound we all LOVE.

faulty would be dumping oil or a metallic grinding or scraping.
I ran mine for a few 100 miles then pulled the exhaust just to see if any oil was there.
also check the input to the IC.

its always a good idea to have a baseline of where the engine is.
I have:
fuel pressure's
compression
leak down
mixture
timing

for when I got my car. one of the first things I did.

take another look at the IC ORings. I took a chunk out of one putting my IC back on. I keep a stock of 4-5 just in case I do it again so It does not keep me grounded.
there are so many places for these cars to leak air.
check the intake bolts. 18ft pounds
verify those vac hoses to the dist.
check the timing and mechanical advance. this can be done with a timing light.
remove all vac lines and rev the engine and verify the timing advances
set timing to 26 degrees with lines removed
connect the vac line that has vac on it at idle to the outside port. timing should advance.
verifies the vac advance pot.
then connect this line to the inside port. timing should retard. leave it there and reconnect the
advance port.

above 3k the system goes open loop so the O2 sensor is not used. this strictly uses CP's
verify the connector at the throttle body. this controls when the system goes open loop.

if you have a hand vac pump you can test the TTV for a vacuum leak. this is a great tool to have and a lot of them come as a break bleeding kit.

just an update, letting you guys who've helped know I haven't moved on without you...been back and forth a few times, and can't quite remember where I started, but engine is starting right up, running smooth - until it gets up to temperature...I looped the thermotime valve into itself, committed to never going into boost until she's warmed up, and I end up with the same scenario - reaches temp, begins a slight studder/burping, leading to loss of power...engine will continue to idle now, rather than die like before...It's a temperature-sensitive issue, so I'm thinking WUR or fuel pumps, though fuel output seems consistent...Is this when I need to do cold/warm/system pressure tests???Just a bit intimidated as I will be doing so on my own...Any other ideas are greatly appreciated...

What now?
 

I got the CIS pressure test kit the other day, and followed directions per a link found here, jimsbasementworkshop.com. simple steps, so I wanted to share my pressures, and see what you guys think is the next step...
cold system pressure (valve closed) - 6.5 bar
WUR cold control pressure (valve open) - 1.9 bar
w/ WUR plugged in thereafter - 3.0 bar
...took her for a little spin to get her to temp, which is where she really acts up, missing in a consistent, not rhythmic, tempo...got her home to get warm system pressure, which was 3.7 bar.
shut down engine - pressure immediately dropped to 2.5 bar
after 1 minute - 2.6 bar
4 minutes - 2.5 bar
10 minutes - 2.1 bar
15 minutes - 2.0 bar
...and now 2 hours later, its holding at 1.5 bar...
All seems OK, unless I'm missing something...
Any ideas/inputs is always appreciated...
What's next, CDI, Coil???

6.5bar is the system pressure

did you check the frequency valve.

how does it run above 3k? how about a steady speed above 3k

6.5 is the cold system pressure, with valve leading to WUR closed...as for the frequency valve, how would I check it? I just followed the protocol from the website as it was my first time checking pressures - and didn't come to such instructions...as for running above 3K, I suppose I haven't done too much of that...When cold, it feels normal, as if there wouldn't be a problem in the higher RPM's - I am trying to stay far from boost when not at temp since I cut out the thermo-time valve...when I get to temp, low RPM's she sputters and stutters, trying to climb up in RPM's...That when I get her home...she seems to run better the higher the RPM's - even at temp...No issues when cold...No issues with start-ups - hot or cold...

system pressure is not temp dependent .

when cold, you are in open loop, or no O2 sensor and the FV goes into a default setting.

make sure the FV is vibrating
did you verify that the vac hoses to the dist are connected correctly
are both advance system working. vac and mech.

drive at 3500-4500 and see how it runs. you don't have to floor it.

have you tried running without the O2 connected.

this sounds like a timing issue.

Hard to follow whats done and checked but vacuum leak comes to mind. Cracked im blocks? Broken spark plug? Melted distributor rotor?

Update & Question on Findings
 

Alright, 2 things came to light tonight...While removing the CIS pressure lines, I looked down in WUR, and am not sure what I am looking at, but it seems strange...Is it a clog, or is that what the screen should look like???http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1473826856.jpg
I went for a short drive, to see how she fares above 3K RPM - she slightly misses the entire climb through higher RPM's - and when I got back, at temp, I tried adjusting idle and AFR with O2 sensor disconnected...Once I got her to good numbers - and a little better sound - I reattached the sensor and AFR's went lean, high 15's low 16's...And then I remember back when the old K27 blew seals, it also blew oil all through the exhaust...and that sensor was drowning in it by the time I got to it...Is it possible it got soaked or fried, and that's what is causing my warm temp farting???WUR???
Again, can thank you all enough for the help...you Pelicans are my go to's...

Looks very clogged. Should be a clean gauze. Won't help. More than 50% blocked by the pic?
May even have more crap under the disc. But doesn't really explain the temp effect - unless the cold pressures are enough to mask the issue. But you need to clean it. And probably worth checking the disc as well.
Alan

that WUR will make the CP go hi making it run lean.
clean it and check system pressures.
if they are good and it runs good WO the O2, then the O2 is probably bad.

makes me wonder about the condition of the FD.

What you are seeing in the picture posted above is NOT sediment, or something that is loosely collected there by the screen...It has every characteristic of a brass-colored screen, that looks as though its been disintegrating, or decomposing - for lack of a better description...I cannot just pull/scrape it out...Sorry guys but this is my first time really looking into the WUR's emotions...What does cleaning entail, and/or is it time to send it off for rebuild/BrianLeask-ification???Thanks...