Rod bolt method correction advice

[mike sampsel]

So I torqued my rod nuts to 15#. Waited and torqued to 15 again and swung 90.
Used oil on the nuts, this worked well on the last five rods after I used my breaker bar to swing 90.

Trouble is with my little torque wrench, I discovered I was not able to do the swing 90.
Technique etc blah blah.

So I have unknown torque on one rod. Should I swing 60? Or tighten it to 50# or get two new bolts an nuts and do this one over?

[Catorce]

Do it over with new bolts on just that one rod, of course.

[Neil Harvey]

This is not hard. Surely you can use some logic here. If the final is a 90° angle and ypu never made it, you never went past the bolts yield.

So undo both nuts, re seat them with the 15 (whatevers) you are using and re do the 90°'s. You are done.

Don't understand why the use of rod bolts give so much grief to so many? Maybe its written in "that book"!!

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by Neil Harvey

This is not hard. Surely you can use some logic here. If the final is a 90° angle and ypu never made it, you never went past the bolts yield.

So undo both nuts, re seat them with the 15 (whatevers) you are using and re do the 90°'s. You are done.

Don't understand why the use of rod bolts give so much grief to so many? Maybe its written in "that book"!!

Okay, that makes lots of sense, which means I can press on with what I’ve got. And not have to wait on new bolts. Thanks

[KNIGHTRACE]

I recomend never using oil on the threads as it is not that accurate. I use apr and if you did not reach the maximum torque spec, easy redo them correctly. Many bolts can be reused like Carr or apr, however use what your rods were sized to. You can buy a stretch gauge and it is more accurate than torquing and I recommend never using a click type torque wrench. Hope this helps. William Knight

[boosted79]

"Trouble is with my little torque wrench, I discovered I was not able to do the swing 90"

Maybe I'm not understanding this but if you are using your torque wrench as a breaker bar that is a problem in itself. Throw out the torque wrench because it's now probably inaccurate after being used as a breaker. But maybe that isn't what you meant?

[KNIGHTRACE]

boosted79 somewhere in the early 1990's Porsche went to a torque NM number plus 90 degrees of rotation...quite often was not enough and head studs came loose and motors leaked. It is best in my opinion to torque a bolt to the proper spec and the degrees of rotation and see what that number is with a torque wrench that has a tell tail indicator. Then just use that number, On rod bolts you can use a stretch gauge, Thanks, William

[boosted79]

Yes, I was just pointing out that if he used the torque wrench on one nut to do the 90 swing it may have been damaged depending on what type of wrench it is and the max torque capacity vs. the actual torque req'd to get the 90 swing.

At least he should get the calibration checked.

Better yet, throw out the TTY rod bolts and get some ARPs and a stretch gauge, no torque wrench req'd, at least for the rods.

[Walt Fricke]

At a guess, he didn't break the case, so he was installing the rods (and new bearings) through the spigot. Can't use a stretch gauge that way.

It really is silly if you have the crank out not to use a stretch gauge - they aren't expensive. I got mine from Summit. And dial indicators aren't expensive either.

[Mark Henry]

If you have a vice and known accurate weights, calibrating a torque wrench isn't very hard, I've done mine for years. I have an accurate 1000g scale, so I measured and filled tin juice cans for weights. Then measure/mark 12" from the center of the drive, put the wrench on the drive level in the vice, add the weight with MIG wire on the 12" mark . You gently add the weight and it should click at the weight selected and not a pound more, you adjust the lock nuts on the end of the handle till you achieve this. I made up 3-4 different weights for doing this job and I calibrate my torque wrenches at least once a year.

I always have extra ARP grease hanging around, but if not I'd use a moly grease like swepco 101 or CV joint grease on the bolt threads.

[KNIGHTRACE]

This question is so often asked I make make a youtube video, different lubricants yield different results. Back in the 90's I went to a torque class. It was a test to compare different lubricants.. The most repeatability was a product by ARP called peanut butter. I was using certain motor oils before the class.. Today with like CARR bolts costing $450 in my rods I sincerely expect them to torque themselves. Just joking on that part about torquing themselves.

[mike sampsel]

Liking the info and
hoping my build is good enough for my planned street car use.
It’s in short block state, and I did not use a stretch gauge, nor arp lubricant.

My newer car will never be touched by me, wonder what rod bolts are in it?
It’s a 450 hp 3 liter, seems to hold up so far. Probably Porsche rod bolts.

[KNIGHTRACE]

Mike, rod bolts have an easy life on turbo motors compared to NA motors... Pretty sure your 3 liter is not making 450 hp NA. Also I built many of motors with oil and a torque wrench.. Just make sure the torque matches what the rods were honed at in the torque spec. Friend Of mine got 413 hp on 3 liter NA. and it would be REALLY hard for a 3 liter to make 450 on Porsche case.

[mike sampsel]

KNIGHTRACE,

Thanks for the encouragement on the oil on the bolts/nuts. I have some ARP lube but not clear what torque to use with it, and forgot I had it so I stuck with oil. The 3 liter I’m building is only going to be around 210 - 220 hp (if that). Stock SC CIS (starts at 180hp) going to bigger 98 mm, 9.5 CR JE pistons, CAT removed so unsure of HP.

My bad as I sorta double switched threads: My 3 liter, 450 HP is a twin turbo GTS I won’t be touching it.

Anyway, enjoyed the many different ideas on rod bolts.

[Walt Fricke]

Knight - could you give some general information on how someone made 413 flywheel HP on a 3.0 without a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous? The factory race motor figure of 110 HP/Liter seems a bit hard to beat - or even to attain absent titanium rods, aluminum cam gears and maybe some other stuff internal to the engine.

Or specifics, but not if it would strain your friendship of course.

[KNIGHTRACE]

Walt, I will not give you too much information as it was a friend of mine that built it. I have a 3.2 motor that made 377 hp on JB racings dyno. I have built 370 hp 3 liter motors. But I will get back to answer your question as the motor I am speaking of ran 12 hrs of Sebring and this was 15 years ago roughly so memory is a little faded. However in my opinion today 125 hp per liter is EASY. Back to telling you what was done. Heads were opened way up and changed on shape a little, I have one of the heads in my possession very soon. The valves had to be made smaller by memory due to their being so much duration they would lock into each other. I have photo of motor somewhere and it had mechanical injection, however mechanical injection is not better or easier than modern Motec M130. Back to answer question, there were several pounds removed from the crank, cross drilling, light LONG rods can't remember length today, forged rockers additional cam oil feeds and healthy compression by memory 14:1... The max rpm by memory was 12k but the motor ran at around 10K rpm. It had a 6 speed and was in Montey Sheltons car. I was quite young in the sport back then and it looked complicated to me. It may have won Sebring that weekend but one of the problems we had was belts.... One of my 3.2 motors yesterday seemingly couldn't keep a belt on. It is on a clients car that runs with David Murray. it made 373 hp. and has never before had such a problem or any problem keeping belts on... The motor had gone through a fire and that may be part to blame. Car was not running and in a garage when fire happened therefore we are trying to help the client get back out there.. Here is a little more answer to your question on HP. (Torque)(RPM)/5250= HP therefore HP is simply a cummulative result of RPM. The way to get HP is more RPM and choices that move the Torque higher in the RPM range. Also Mike, I have great camshafts for your CIS build even if you don't go to 98 mm my cams and a CP piston will make 220 HP at the wheels and reduce the chan e poi predetonation even as a 3 liter. my email is knightrace@mac.com if you would like a set of cams. there is no name for them to look up anywhere. However even on stock 930/10 9.8 factory euro pistons with big port we see in the 220s at the wheels, had a motor making 207 at the wheels with 964 cam and changed to my CIS cam and it made 221 hp and 199 tq at the wheels. It can do a little better with CP pistons and a little more cam. I sell CP pistons if you need. I hope I did not run on too long as I was really sleepy while I wrote this.. I know where a picture of the 413hp motor is is you email me I can send it. Thanks, William Knight. knightrace@mac.com