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-   -   2.7 Rebuild – To bore or not to bore and other questions (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/1082219-2-7-rebuild-bore-not-bore-other-questions.html)

draw 04-06-2025 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukasM (Post 12425156)
Hi Ward,

Nice progress indeed, almost ready for case assembly!

And good to hear that the coating helped enough to get the clearances within tolerance. How durable is the coating, compared to regular bearing shells?

What is your view on the case, did Olli's do a good job? I would have thought that they would align bore to the minimum specified size, since wear just opens up the bore over time, and you want to maximize service life. However I'm a novice when it comes to engine building so maybe I'm overlooking something.

Cheers,
Lukas

The coating is supposed to be pretty durable. HM Elliott does these coatings for NASCAR and MAHLE.

As for the case, Ollie's did great work considering how twisted it was. They had to take 0.035" off to get it back to standard. They did align bore, but couldn't get it back to the minimum size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco_NZ (Post 12426549)
Seems Ollies bore to spec … my case was STD but on the high side, crank was STD but on the low side .. net result too much clearance.

Yes, exactly my situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dedyplay (Post 12427634)
Fabulous engine! Make sure the intake and exhaust ports are well opened!

Thanks, I debated this for quite a while but decided to open the intake to 37mm and kept the exhaust at the stock 35mm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiracHaile (Post 12430532)
I had my case align bored and pined by Ollie’s. I measured my clearances with a dial gauge and plastigauge and they were loose across all mains. I called Ollie’s about it and they assured me it’s fine. So it’s together and once I get it running we’ll see what the oil pressure is at. But I thought I was the only one looks like it’s common.

I'm no expert, but I've talked to a few during my rebuild and this sounds like it's becoming very common...even the guy who coated my bearings said he's seeing a lot of these.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb_911_76 (Post 12433408)
Draw, thanks for your detailed report, very informative as I'm also working on a 2.7. FYI: Previous owner had Dilavar studs on exhaust side. All but 3 Dilavars had snapped while all steelies on the intake side were fine and tight, despite a lot of rust. Novice advice requested: Your bearing trouble has me reconsidering splitting the case. It wasn't leaking, except a bit of sweat around both shaft seals. Are there any pointers that can help me make a decision? I don't know the exact mileage (intermittent odometer), but should be around 80k miles. Cylinders still have cross hash and also Pistons are dead nuts in spec, valve guides are worn... Sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Thanks! This is my first engine rebuild, so I'm not really qualified to give any advice except for what not to do...That said, I think that most people would agree that the mag cases need work no matter what.

draw 04-25-2025 07:15 PM

Bolted on some of the ancillaries...

Got the chain rails installed and a titanium RSR crank pulley from EB Motorsport. I'm a sucker for titanium!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1745635999.jpg

Updated oil pressure reliefs, oil connection, and sump plate with titanium drain plug from EB Motorsport bolted on with PVD coated titanium M6 socket cap screws and washers...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1745635999.jpg

Breather cover, oil thermostat, and oil pressure switch. I got a little sloppy with the paint pen, but at least I know they are torqued...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1745635999.jpg

Question...I'm installing carbs, so is there any good reason to keep these three studs installed? I'm thinking I'll remove these...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1745635999.jpg

Onward...

Veeveessees 04-25-2025 08:11 PM

Are the intakes and exhaust ports wide open ? Fab engine!

Vavavoom 04-29-2025 07:19 AM

Are the ports wide open ?

draw 05-03-2025 06:14 PM

Preparing for the next phase of assembly, I moved on to measuring the cylinder to piston clearances, ring gaps, and installing the pistons in the cylinders.

First measured the cylinders...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Then each of the pistons...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Per MAHLE's spec sheet, clearance is 0.0254mm to 0.046mm. Did a little mixing and matching to get them as even as possible. All came out within range.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746323058.png

Moved on to checking the ring gaps...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

The spec for the top ring is 0.017" and they all started with a gap of about 0.007". About 200 turns on the manual ring file and test fitting 20 times each, got them done. Fortunately, only the top rings needed filing.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Cleaned and prepped for assembly...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Rings installed on the piston...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Insert using a tapered spring compressor...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746322907.jpg

Say a prayer, then BINGO! Installed and ready to go...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1746324508.jpg

Onward...

draw 05-14-2025 08:02 PM

Now to check actual deck height...

Back in post #48, I measured the case and other parts and, using a 1mm base shim in my spreadsheet, I calculated the deck height to be 0.79mm (0.031"). Let's see how things look in reality...

Started with a 1mm shim supplied by Ollie's...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

Installed the piston and cylinder and found TDC...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

Deck height turned out to be 0.85mm (0.0335"). Pretty close to what I expected...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

When I measured on the opposite side of the piston, I got 0.029". This is a little too close for my comfort.

I could stack a 0.25mm and a 1mm shim together to get a better deck height, but this would be about 1.14mm and would lower my compression ratio to 9.98. So doing some googling, I found Hussey Performance who makes custom gaskets in any thickness in 0.001" increments. I gave them a call, sent them one of my shims from Ollie's, and two weeks later got a pack of 6 shims for $150...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

I ordered the shims in a 0.047" thickness, which measured out to be 1.204mm...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

Put everything back together and got a deck height of 0.042" or 1.07mm...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1747279052.jpg

It took a lot of futzing around, but I think this is a good result. I could have ordered the shims in a 0.046" thickness, but I decided I'd rather err on the side of caution.
With this deck height, the calculated compression ratio is 10.06.

In case anyone is wondering, I've checked the Harbor Freight caliper against my feeler gauges, and it is surprisingly accurate.

Onward...

PeteKz 05-15-2025 10:59 AM

Ward and others: FYI, I'm currently running a 103mm forged piston in a motorcycle engine with iron sleeve and .025" clearance and no contact with the head up to 7000 RPM. Per David Vizard, in small block American V8 engines, you can get down to .018" before contact if your pistons don't rock much (e.g., hyper-eutectic cast pistons). The clearances of pistons to aluminum cylinders in Porsche air-cooled engines are pretty tight, therefore they don't rock much either, so I would not be concerned with a .029" piston/head clearance. I have around .030" in my current engine.

draw 05-31-2025 03:26 PM

After ruining two rear main seals using the "PVC pipe" technique, I opted for the "proper" P215 tool...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748731266.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748731266.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748731266.jpg

That was much easier!

Ready to install the pistons and cylinders. Everything prepped and a little bead of Curil T on the base gaskets...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748733656.jpg

Using the Supertec head studs makes attaching them to the connecting rods much easier. However, a word of caution...My casesavers were not perfectly perpendicular to the case, which caused the studs to "porcupine". This became a real nightmare getting a few of the studs screwed into the case. When I do this again, I will install the studs first.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748731941.jpg

Seeing that threaded hole in the adapter on the crankshaft gave me an idea...looks like a great place to mount a degree wheel...

Bought a degree wheel and positive stop to find TDC...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748732480.jpg

Attached the degree wheel to the flywheel side using the RMS tool and made a pointer out of a coat hanger with a little yellow paint on the end.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748732480.jpg

I realize that the wheel turns "backwards," but I really just need an accurate TDC for when I get to the cam timing. Cheap and hopefully effective!

Onward...

75 911s 06-01-2025 06:46 AM

Ward,

Amazing attention to detail on this build.

You asked about the three studs for carbs. I would remove those and plug the holes in the shroud. For the back two holes I just put a nice Bolt and washer in. I used a rubber plug for the 3rd hole where the spacer sits.

draw 06-02-2025 04:27 PM

This is my engine. There are many like it, but this one is mine...

I like the look of the 906 cooling tins, so I bought a set from EB Motorsport. When I went to install them, it became obvious that the 906 cylinder is not the same size as my 93mm cylinders from LN. The hole for the spring retainer was about a half inch past the barrel...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748909906.jpg

Drew up a modified version in CAD and had SendCutSend laser cut them out of Grade 2 titanium...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748909906.jpg

The part as delivered...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748909906.jpg

And installed...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748909906.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1748909906.jpg

Onward...

ian c2 06-02-2025 05:51 PM

Nice
I believe Henry and the guys at Supertek make/sell them .

ian c2 06-02-2025 05:51 PM

Nice
I believe Henry and the guys at Supertek make/sell them .

LukasM 06-03-2025 06:07 AM

It sure is a cool time to live when you have Fusion 360 (and tons of Youtube tutorials) available for free, and then a service like SCS to make custom parts like that for you for a very reasonable price!

Great work as usual!

draw 06-03-2025 07:13 PM

Time to install the heads and cam housings...

Heads refurbished, intakes ported, and twin plugged by CGarr...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1749005705.jpg

Intakes opened up to 37mm...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1749005705.jpg

Installed on the cylinders...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1749005705.jpg

Loctite 574 (over) applied to the cam housing...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1749005705.jpg

And installed...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1749005705.jpg

Starbase, we have a problem (or two)...

draw 06-15-2025 04:22 PM

I ran into a couple of issues.

The first problem was that I'm a doofus...

My 15mm 12-point deep socket didn't fit through the cam housing, preventing me from getting to the head stud nuts to torque them down. Figuring that a semi-deep socket would work, I bought a Snap-on socket off ebay. When it arrived, I could get past the housing and down into the hole. At this point I realized that the nut was 14mm and my deep socket that I already had would fit great. Not a big deal, really. I'm just out $50 for a socket that I'll probably never use. Anyone need a Snap-on 15mm 12-point semi-deep socket? I'll make you a deal...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

My second problem was a little more serious. When torquing down the cam housing to the heads, this nut wouldn't tighten past 15NM...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750031134.jpg

The only way to assess the situation and repair the damage was to tear everything apart...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

Threads on the stud basically disintegrated...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

Removed all the Loctite 574 and replaced the stud with an extra one I had in my stash...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

All back together...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

Onward...

draw 06-15-2025 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteKz (Post 12465377)
Ward and others: FYI, I'm currently running a 103mm forged piston in a motorcycle engine with iron sleeve and .025" clearance and no contact with the head up to 7000 RPM. Per David Vizard, in small block American V8 engines, you can get down to .018" before contact if your pistons don't rock much (e.g., hyper-eutectic cast pistons). The clearances of pistons to aluminum cylinders in Porsche air-cooled engines are pretty tight, therefore they don't rock much either, so I would not be concerned with a .029" piston/head clearance. I have around .030" in my current engine.

Pete, I appreciate your experience here and I did seriously consider going with a tighter clearance. Maybe on my next build...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75 911s (Post 12474557)
Ward,

Amazing attention to detail on this build.

You asked about the three studs for carbs. I would remove those and plug the holes in the shroud. For the back two holes I just put a nice Bolt and washer in. I used a rubber plug for the 3rd hole where the spacer sits.

Thanks Duane! I'm going to remove those studs before I install the shroud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian c2 (Post 12475515)
Nice
I believe Henry and the guys at Supertek make/sell them .

Thanks, Ian. Yes, I think Supertec does sell them as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukasM (Post 12475685)
It sure is a cool time to live when you have Fusion 360 (and tons of Youtube tutorials) available for free, and then a service like SCS to make custom parts like that for you for a very reasonable price!

Great work as usual!

Thanks Lukas! Absolutely! It’s amazing how accessible high-quality design and manufacturing tools have become. Between the tools, the wealth of tutorials online, and services like SCS, the barrier to turning an idea into a real, custom part is lower than ever. Definitely a great time to be a maker!

snbush67 06-15-2025 09:07 PM

Nice build. Were the deck heights on each cylinder the same?

Jesse911 06-16-2025 12:23 AM

This is a very nice build! Also all the photos and info are great as I will be rebuilding my engine soon too. Thanks!

What oil pump did you use btw?

mikedsilva 06-16-2025 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draw (Post 12481838)


My second problem was a little more serious. When torquing down the cam housing to the heads, this nut wouldn't tighten past 15NM...


The only way to assess the situation and repair the damage was to tear everything apart...


Threads on the stud basically disintegrated...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

Removed all the Loctite 574 and replaced the stud with an extra one I had in my stash...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750029684.jpg

All back together...



Onward...

Interesting.. never had a strud strip like that before....

I see you have those vertical marks in your barrels...

draw 06-20-2025 03:07 PM

Time to prep the chain housings for installation.

Apply Dykem...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

Sanded flat...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

Apply Loctite EA 9340 epoxy...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

Found a "worm hole" in the magnesium...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

Not the best picture, but filled it up with the Loctite EA 9340 epoxy and sanded smooth...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1750460076.jpg

Onward...


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