Does anyone have an answer to this:
NASCAR uses a power supply that boosts 12v to 18v for their MSD.
Do you have any thoughts about what that does to energy delivery?

Yes. The MSD box does not have a regulated power supply so 18v will raise the HV voltage to around 800v. The only reason you might need that much voltage is for very high cylinder pressure.

It would lead to all sorts of problems on our cars. I know of a race car that runs a 600V ignition. Eats a plug set in two outings.

If this situation (18v) eats plugs after two outings, does that suggest that the energy/spark is increased?

If higher energy eats spark plugs does it also eat rotors and dist. caps?

drama time anyone ? If you like reverse my #1 and #2 I think I have the order correct.

But William, you are one of the "cool kids" that has been bullied into posting what someone else thinks. You must be an idiot for not ever using a single MSD ignition with 2 coils in any of your builds. You must be an idiot for using 993 Twin Turbo head studs in all of your important builds.

Of course, since you are a "cool kid" and an idiot, I must be an idiot for choosing you to build my engine.

It must be just blind luck that have an engine that works at all.....

:rolleyes:

In the FAQ section of MSDs website it talks about running different input voltage into the MSD CDI and states that between 10v and 16v the output will be the same because the output is regulated.

That's the digital box. The analog MSD is not regulated.

Talk about drama:
This is a perfect example of what happens when confirmation bias meets desperation.

Thanks for the clarification, Aaron.

I know some folks are having a hard time not getting bent but I think this is a great thread with valuable information.

Sorry, I should have said 'some' MSD boxes are not regulated.

On that topic, here's a video I made some time ago showing how a Bosch CDI coil voltage varies with battery voltage and also RPM:

https://youtu.be/K65slwl__dk

Dude, just stop...You and Scottie seem to have the same illness.

^ yeah, not sure what I've stepped into here. Just trying to offer an EE perspective. Gonna duck out for a bit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1614544408.jpg

Moving right along...what is the best oil for my Porsche?

^^^^^^^ lol. :) Canola?

On another note Mark, please send me an email so we can discuss the services you offer as we are always looking to make new connections....

Cheers

Jonny, You need to buy an old MSD 6A and test it (no longer made from what I hear). The rated voltage occurs at 18V on the two I own from 20 years apart. They give a battery voltage range and then made the claim of voltage when in fact it was for 18V, not a typical 14V. The old MSD 6A is actually quite gutless when a single spark in the series is considered. I can't speak for their other products as I have not tested those. It doesn't get anywhere near 800V at 18V applied! Fred

Nascar Cup cars quit using MSD boxes when the R07 engine came out (2011?) At least that was when it was in testing.
The biggest problem with MSD boxes in the pro categories was that some (most?) teams were adding traction control internally and nascar couldn't police it effectively. Mclaren/Freescale ECU's are effectively anti tamper proof, where any modifications are traceable and detectable at the track. The MSD boxes were routinely sent back to MSD to look for any modifications. That took days.
The way that the traction control worked was in conjunction with the rev limiting software. If the engine rpm climbed above a certain rate, the ignition timing was retarded. There were no wheel speed/driveshaft speed, car speed sensors needed, only the engine speed input. And obviously the ignition box needed to see that. We all pointed fingers at each other and it all seemed to get swept under the rug with nobody ever getting "busted" for it. Until EFI and the Mclaren ECU's came out and leveled the playing field.

Dan - great NASCAR story!

In my case, with an LSD and relatively low HP, wheel spin isn't an issue unless the track is wet or dirty. Certainly not in a straight line on dry track. Is it wheel spin the fiddling was aimed at preventing?

Yup, wheel spin. Think about it, if you could come out of a corner, any corner, every corner, and just floor it every single time, without the risk of getting sideways, you'd look like the best driver since Steve McQueen. And the traction control was so good and so fast that it seemed seamless. Lap after lap after lap. And quite honestly, some of the most veteran drivers of all time were seething that some rookie kid could outdrive them after just a few laps on a track they've never seen before, other than on a video simulator.

Correct but IIRC the MSD 6TN/6ALN NASCAR CD Ignitions 6430 is basically a 6AL, just 2.5-3X the money.

The exception was a clear base plate so the box could be visually inspected. MSD claims 'Extreme duty" whatever that means.

I think the internal potting was also clear, so that the electronics could be inspected and/or offer protection from tampering. Previously the potting was black and could not be easily inspected for the aforementioned traction control by the tech officials. The potting "also" offered "vibration protection."

"The biggest problem with MSD boxes in the pro categories was that some (most?) teams were adding traction control internally"
This sounds interesting. Do you know if it's possible to use the input for the rev limiter chip to create a similar effect (IE: traction control)?

The outlaw traction control was done through the circuitry designed for the rev limiter chip, inside the box, so as not to be easily detected. Davis Technologies has a box that plugs in place of the rev limiter chip, but I think MSD must have learned a lot from the confiscated boxes too, because I see that they now sell traction control on the Holley website. I have no idea what other devices it takes to make theirs work though.

https://moretraction.com/

Davis's prices are crazy high for traction control though. If you're not racing with it, you could get similar traction control for a lot less. Even some of the aftermarket EFI ECU's come with it now.

The Jordan Suzuki and Yoshimura Suzuki team were doing this back in 2007 when TC wasn't allowed. Effectively they use rate of change software and start to cut the ignition. This was done WITHOUT wheel speed sensors.

I had the add-on traction control on my racebike that was programable for sensitivity. Not sure if that actually answers the question, but once the genie was out of the bottle, they had to lift the ban.

TC now is unbelievably complex in MotoGP, even with the standard ECU. Throttle and ignition mapping is custom tailored per gear and per corner and based on lean angle. GPS was outlawed, but with the start/finish timing loop, the bike does know where it is on track.

It cost me less than $1,000 for piggyback ECU, wiring harness, ignition module, quick shifter, traction control and self mapping with O2 sensor for a motorcycle. that's running 4 COP and 8 injectors. I can't understand why the Davis stuff is so expensive.

New prototype Duel CD coming soon. Designed and manufactured in the USA.
Testing is on going and limited manufacturing is happening.... Now!

One CD triggering two coils. The box is small (5"x6"x2") and designed to be Porsche specific. All wiring color coding is familiar to anyone who works on the air-cooled engines.

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May I throw my hat in the ring now too.

Great more are becoming available for the market to choose from. What I am pleased about is this new one is also CDI.

I have been selling CDI Ignition for years from these large hemi chamber engines and found in our own testing, that these engines start easier, run better and make more torque with CDI. We have tested about every other Inductive system available and found nothing that comes close.

Maybe others have found the opposite result, as I see many engines running Inductive Ignition. I often think its all about simplicity and cost. The engine runs and make power so why the need for CDI? Its in our name, Performance Developments!

We have been selling this system for years that drives two coils simultaneously. This is well proven, we have been selling this product and the other options for over 25+ years without any failures.

Check out M&W Pro 14 dual coil for Porsche. We make up a simple small adapter harness that plugs right into the stock harness. Single channel system for both Points or reluctor triggered engine are also available.

Keep them coming as more is always better.

We mate the CDI with its own made for CDI Coils. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1619826978.jpg

M&W has been producing great products for many years, great choice.

What could be better?
More options to enhance my twin plug distributors.

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Nice and neat looking. And there is a real call for two channel CDI systems. Looks like something Bob Ashlock might have done. I'm not going to build a two channel unit. If someone wants to fire two coils they will need two boxes. I'm even going to go more retrograde on a handful of units by using some NOS 1963 germanium power transistors that have aged well. But those units won't be going on race cars. Fred

You are correct. Bob is the genius behind this clean little system.
I designed the housing and wiring components to incorporate his electronics into an easy to use, cost effective, high energy system.
Even the wiring codes will be Porsche compatible.
I spoke with M&W ignitions (highly recommended) but elected to work with a small, home grown company nearer to my location.
I like the thought of working with local technicians with the drive and willingness to nibble around the edges.

Believe me when I say it was an educated guess that this was Ashlock's work. The simplicity and layout of the board, for the work it has to do was the clue. You've partnered with a good man. Fred

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For anyone interested, I did end up installing twin CDI boxes into my build .. rubber mounted Daytona Sensors CD-1.

But I have yet to install a Twin Plug distributor. If anyone knows of spare JB Racing distributor, love to hear from you.

Why not get one from Henry?

Here is our new twin CD. Small size [5"X6"], long harness for mounting diversity, state of the art electronics. Custom adjustable rev limiter.
Our distributors are custom built per/application in Bosch or Marelli options.

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