Cost of 2.2l engine rebuild?

[RyanH]

My 1970 911T with stock 2.2l engine and Weber carbs may require an engine rebuild and the carbs stripped and cleaned. There's an issue on cylinder 1 maybe a cracked piston ring but needs some exploring to determine. What are people charging in the States to rebuild engines? Multi layered question given I don't really know the problem but weighing up costs and if sending the engine to the States from Australiais cheaper than an engine rebuild here. Seems ridiculous but the cost here in Australia is very high. Any feedback? Thanks

[Lyndon302]

Build it yourself. Not a hard thing to do if you take your time and ask lots of questions.
I'm no expert but if you go to that trouble you may want a better crank. Barrels and look at the heads and get rid of the T cams. Tweek the carbs.
I can point your in the right direction to get parts.
Also we have a shop in Adelaide that will do all your machine work. ( Im loathed to recommend as it always goes wrong. They just did some cooper S stuff for me and I wasn't happy. ) They are well versed in air cooled and we'll priced.
All I know it's easy to spend 15k. If not real pretty inside 20. AUD
Lyndon

[RyanH]

Originally Posted by Lyndon302

Build it yourself. Not a hard thing to do if you take your time and ask lots of questions.
I'm no expert but if you go to that trouble you may want a better crank. Barrels and look at the heads and get rid of the T cams. Tweek the carbs.
I can point your in the right direction to get parts.
Also we have a shop in Adelaide that will do all your machine work. ( Im loathed to recommend as it always goes wrong. They just did some cooper S stuff for me and I wasn't happy. ) They are well versed in air cooled and we'll priced.
All I know it's easy to spend 15k. If not real pretty inside 20. AUD
Lyndon

Tempting Lyndon, I've done everything else on it with books/videos/forums etc so why not the engine? I agree $15-20k is a likely cost, too much for me to consider. Interesting you have a Cooper S, my other project is a 63 Morris Cooper, not an S though. I might pick your brains about parts and upgrades in the near future cheers

[otto_kretschmer]

do you need to split the case?

The T engines are suppose to be pretty bullet proof. They are understressed compared to the other engines. I would look into seeing if a top end would do the job.

[Heinz911]

The 2.2 case is Magnesium that tends to warp when you split the case. So a proper rebuild would require flattening the case halves and re-boring the crank and support shaft carriers. In Europe this activity on it's own is 2000 to 4000 Euro.
I agree the rebuilding process can be done by yourself with some good guidance of Wayne's book and this forum, but don't underestimate the machine shop bill.

I rebuild my own 2.2 engine 9 years ago, It was fun, sometimes frustrating, but I learned a lot.

[spyerx]

Assuming you stay stock and use as much as you can via recondition vs. a build for additional performance, in USD:

carb rebuild / refurbish $3.5k
ROUGH labor to remove engine, strip down and clean, assemble, replace, tune: 10k
Recondition case: 3k
Recondition heads: 2k
Cams: 1k
Hardware: 2k
Recondition crank: 1k
Recondition oil pump: 1k
Recondition rockers/valve train: 1k
Recondition rods: 1k
new pistons/cylinders: 6k
Tensioners, other bits, gears, chains: 1.5k
Misc plating and cleanup: 1.5k
Distributor condition: .5k
Misc: 2k

So about $35 all in. if you do it yourself, ~20-25k.

This is why people then go for some performance mods, as the incremental cost is not too much to go to a higher compression piston, a better valve setup, a little more cam lift, etc. until you get to crazy levels.

[Neven911]

Hi Ryan, Similar situation here in NZ, but firstly how much of your engine needs to be rebuilt? A simple gauge of bottom end health is oil pressure, what are your pressures cold @ 2k for example and hot at idle and 3K, if the engine holds 55-60psi hot @ 3000 rpm then why rebuild it? FYI we have one guy in our group here who has a 2.4S with 140K which still holds 50psi @ 3K and others use 25/70 oil to bring the pressure up.
If the bottom end is ok, then the cost is much less, like most engines the top end wears faster, so what are you up for there? valves, guides, rockers, cams etc, I'd budget about 3K AUD for this (factoring in changing your cams from T to E or similar) The big question is the P&C set and there are many options here, ranging from 2nd hand thru to full new 2.4S set (3.6K USD)
I suppose what I'm saying is that you don't necessarily have to fully rebuild the engine back to out of the factory spec but pragmatically refurbish the bits that need attending to a a reasonable cost.

[RyanH]

Thanks for all your replies it's appreciated. For now I've put a hotter plug in the cylinder where I have the issue, start with the cheapest 'fix' first. Had a couple of hour long drives and all good so far it hasn't fouled. Time will tell!!

[Black 993]

Originally Posted by spyerx

Assuming you stay stock and use as much as you can via recondition vs. a build for additional performance, in USD:

carb rebuild / refurbish $3.5k
ROUGH labor to remove engine, strip down and clean, assemble, replace, tune: 10k
Recondition case: 3k
Recondition heads: 2k
Cams: 1k
Hardware: 2k
Recondition crank: 1k
Recondition oil pump: 1k
Recondition rockers/valve train: 1k
Recondition rods: 1k
new pistons/cylinders: 6k
Tensioners, other bits, gears, chains: 1.5k
Misc plating and cleanup: 1.5k
Distributor condition: .5k
Misc: 2k

So about $35 all in. if you do it yourself, ~20-25k.

The above is crazy high. I recently rebuilt my own 2.2T engine to S specs and will list my actual costs:

carb rebuild / refurbish $3.5k vs $1,100 (this included throttle shafts) Paul Abbot did the work
ROUGH labor to remove engine, strip down and clean, assemble, replace, tune: Did my own labor
Recondition case: 3k vs Ollie's did the works, $2,000
Recondition heads: 2k vs $1,000
Cams: 1k vs $600 for new
Hardware: 2k vs $0 ($2k on "hardware"? what hardware??)
Recondition crank: 1k vs $60 polish
Recondition oil pump: 1k vs $0
Recondition rockers/valve train: 1k vs $600 rebush rockers and surface pads
Recondition rods: 1k vs $150 install new bushings
new pistons/cylinders: 6k vs $3K new Mahle S spec p/c's
Tensioners, other bits, gears, chains: 1.5k vs $500
Misc plating and cleanup: 1.5k vs $0
Distributor condition: .5k vs $500 to rebuild/recurve
Misc: 2k vs $0

Absolutely no idea where these prices come from but they're just wrong.

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

Every pro engine builder I contacted quoted me $22k-$30k to rebuild my 2.2. That does not include any, “while we are in there” stuff, just the engine rebuild.

[horizontallyopp]

Originally Posted by Black 993

The above is crazy high. I recently rebuilt my own 2.2T engine to S specs and will list my actual costs:

carb rebuild / refurbish $3.5k vs $1,100 (this included throttle shafts) Paul Abbot did the work
ROUGH labor to remove engine, strip down and clean, assemble, replace, tune: Did my own labor
Recondition case: 3k vs Ollie's did the works, $2,000
Recondition heads: 2k vs $1,000
Cams: 1k vs $600 for new
Hardware: 2k vs $0 ($2k on "hardware"? what hardware??)
Recondition crank: 1k vs $60 polish
Recondition oil pump: 1k vs $0
Recondition rockers/valve train: 1k vs $600 rebush rockers and surface pads
Recondition rods: 1k vs $150 install new bushings
new pistons/cylinders: 6k vs $3K new Mahle S spec p/c's
Tensioners, other bits, gears, chains: 1.5k vs $500
Misc plating and cleanup: 1.5k vs $0
Distributor condition: .5k vs $500 to rebuild/recurve
Misc: 2k vs $0

Absolutely no idea where these prices come from but they're just wrong.

I wouldn't say "wrong", I would say "conservative if you are paying someone else to do everything". I just completed a rebuild of a 69 911E motor doing most of the work myself as well.

carb rebuild / refurbish $0 - carbs previously rebuilt
ROUGH labor to remove engine, strip down and clean, assemble, replace, tune: Did my own labor
Recondition case: Consider what case work you need doing on a magnesium case and look at the costs. Mine needed to be line bored, I had piston squirters installed, IMS shaft bushing update, oil bypass mod, time certs, bearings fitted. It was pricy.
Recondition heads: found a set of reconditioned 2.2 911T heads for cheap
Cams: sent my 911E cams to Dougherty to re-grind to DC30
Hardware: ($2k on "hardware"? what hardware??). What hardware? Head studs, rod bolts - those all have to be replaced. Oil return tubes. Oil pressure relief springs and pistons. Rod bushings. Rod bearings. Main bearings (non-standard main bearings are expensive). Nose bearing if you replace it. Seals. Cylinder base gaskets to set deck height. Things that need to be replaced like rocker shafts, rocker adjusters. Some of this you don't know until you get there.
Recondition crank: Different tacts here. Does your crank need to be re-ground due to damage or sizing? Or just a clean, inspect and polish? Don't know til you get there. My crank was good, just a clean and a quick polish.
Recondition oil pump: replaced and updated my pump with a 4 rib pump from a swap meet. Cleaned and inspected myself.
Recondition rockers/valve train: $400 rebush rockers and surface pads
Recondition rods: if your rods are still round within spec. Mine were fairly out of round which required some work and I had a local engine machine shop recondition them, install bushings and size. $750 CAD
new pistons/cylinders: Not every rebuild needs new everything like Nikasil cylinders. You can recondition/replate cylinders, get new pistons. There are budget options out there like AA kits (the way I went). All depends on how close to the ends of the earth you want to go. If it's a "no holds barred" rebuild - sure new Mahle stuff is nice, or a set of Nickies and some JE pistons. Up to you.
Tensioners, other bits, gears, chains: depends here on if you are doing any updates. You need new chains, for sure. Any damage or wear to existing idlers? Are you updating tensioners/tensioner arms? That adds up quickly. Consider costs to rebuild tensioners. I opted for a pressure fed tensioner upgrade that I picked up at a swap meet. Our host here offers lots of options for tensioners.
Misc plating and cleanup: 1.5k vs $0 - yup. Plating? I guess that depends if you are doing a "rebuild" or a "restoration". I have friends who drop all their hardware off at the plater just as a matter of course. Myself, I don't care about things that are shiny, so I did none of it. A can of black spray paint and many cans of brake cleaner is about it.
Distributor condition: .5k vs $500 to rebuild/recurve (you know that's the same number, right?). Rebuild/recurve if wanting a stock look. I put in a 123Ignition Bluetooth one. I had a Marelli dist that was previously rebuilt but the curve wouldn't work with what I had planned.
Misc: sealants, gaskets, odd bits of hardware that need replacing. Things you forget about like the o-ring for the cam housing. Flywheel re-surface. Clutch and pressure plate if needed (mine were fine). Oil pressure sender if yours is questionable. Break-in oil which for me is about $150 CAD per oil change and you need 3 of them. If you do the work yourself, you need to buy some tools like a cam nut tool, dial indicator and stand for valve timing, etc.

So for the OP, since I'm in Canada I have some of the same issues as you in Aus - i.e. a lot of stuff has to be shipped (granted you ship a lot further). I can't just "drop stuff off at the experts". The $AUD and $CAD are about the same exchange rate, so maybe my costs are relevant to your cause, but I was about $18.5K CAD for the above, doing the labour myself. Can it be done cheaper - sure as long as a lot of what you have is serviceable. Keep the standard chain tensioners and rebuild. Re-use cylinders and maybe just new pistons. If your cams are serviceable and just need a light polish, there's some money saved.

Would I do it the same way again? If I had the time to find the right core, I don't think I'd be too keen to rebuild another magnesium case engine. I would try and find a later aluminum case engine, which means you have to build to larger displacement.