Is an engine rebuild possible for a complete novice mechanic?
 

I do not have any experience working on an engine, but I'd rather do it myself then pay my local Porsche expert 25K+ to do it. I know it's ambitious, but is it moronic of me to consider it?

The only repair work I've done so far on my '81 911 SC is replace the shifter and coupler bushings and deck lid shocks.

Sorry if I'm the 1,001st person to ask this question.

Buy and read Wayne’s engine rebuilding book.
Then decide if you have the tools and skills to do it.

Thanks, Dennis. Indeed I do have the Bible. It was the first thing I bought after the car. It's also what guided me through the couple of projects I've already taken on.

Wayne uses mechanic icons to indicate the talent required. As a novice, it's hard for me to comprehend what five-mechanic icon level of difficulty is. So I guess I'm looking for anecdotal support or discouragement. As in, "Yeah, I knew a novice who tried. Smart guy, but he failed miserably." Or, "I'd only try it if you could abort and hand things over to a pro if you become overwhelmed."

I don't think you should try it. Or put another way, you should try it but be prepared for it to not go well. Building an engine isn't like replacing the shifter coupler bushings, just repeated many times. You have to know a lot of little things about a lot of little things, and your hands need to be experienced in how to do certain things and how those things are supposed to feel. I don't know how else to put it.

What might be a better idea is to remove the engine yourself and strip off the exhaust and induction, and present it to an engine builder as a long block. Then when it's rebuilt, do the installation yourself. Some builders won't go for this because it introduces too many variables out of their control. But if you find a builder who'd do it, it would cut down on labor costs significantly.

Thanks for your response. Much appreciated. Do you know any engine builders in or around Richmond, Virginia? I realize no engine builder would probably allow it, but I wish I could shadow a mechanic to learn. Have you ever heard of anyone hiring an engine builder to instruct or oversee a novice rebuild?

Engine Rebuilding Workshop..........
 

The answer to your question is NO. If you have the desire and interest to learn to rebuild your 911, you could do it. I have disassembled and assembled a 911 motor more than a hundred times and I am not even a professional mechanic. Just an avid DIYer like anyone in this forum.

My advice to you at this point is to over-come your fear and anxiety about 911 motors. It is one of the easiest motor in the planet to work. Many would disagree but I find it fun and enjoyable to rebuild one. Learn how to drop the motor/transmission and you will be on your way to engine rebuilding. Majority of the participants who attended the Engine Rebuilding Workshops in April 2018 and September 2021 had not done an engine drop before but eager to learn rebuild a motor. Some of them have successfully rebuilt their motors.

I will be back home in 2 weeks and will start another 911 teardown very soon. You are welcome to observe and see first hand how it is done. There are more than 2 dozen people failed to attend the last workshop in September due to Covid-19. To deliver my commitments to them, I am planning another workshop in April 2022 and finally retire doing it.

Tony

Maybe odd for someone like me to suggest this as my daily is rebuilding these engines.

However, you definitely can do this. These are not hard engines to rebuild. They are shrouded in myths about how difficult they are. But if you study how and why, they are really simple.

Here is my advice. And you can email me for any answers to any questions. I'm here to help. I am even thinking of having a professional type school next year. It wont be cheap but it will be conducted in my pro shop with all my experience and knowledge available.

BUILD IT ON PAPER FIRST.

Make a list of the tools required. Don't cheap out. Get good tools. but don't over buy either. A really good solid engine stand is a must, or a solid bench where you can bolt the cradle to.

Decide on a clean area in which to do the build. Plenty of bench space too.

Get in the habit of cleanliness. Clean up after each process.

Break the build into easy to do processes. Disassembly, inspection, cleaning, measuring, machine repair, parts sourcing and assembly. After each process, clean up. The disassembly can be messy, but if you take your time and have drain trays etc, you can keep it clean. Go to Lowes or similar and buy the shop paper towels. Go the restaurant supply stores and buy "bussing" trays and some cutlery tray for small parts.

Understand there will be some parts of the build you may not be able to do yourself. Cleaning is always a bear. You can do the heavy lifting here, scraping and getting rid of the heavy dirt. Lowes or HD have large plastic trays that are used for mixing concrete. Buy one of these and use this to clean the large pieces. You can buy solvent in 5 gal drums from TSC. Just pour it back into the can after use and dispose of it correctly. Once you have the heavy dirt etc removes, have the parts hot tanked and cleaned in a professional wash tank. BUT, make sure its regularly cleaned and the water and soap changed often. Otherwise you will be washing your parts with dirty greasy water. When this is done the galley plugs etc should be removed. In other words, get it professionally cleaned. The cleaning of engines is the most time consuming part of the build. It should never be shortcut'ed either.

Inspection and measuring maybe difficult without the correct tools and test equipment. This is where you should rely upon a good machine shop to do the work for you.

Expect to replace all bearings, chains, chain rails, full upper and lower Gasket kit, chain tensioner parts, etc. The parts that probably will be attention will be the case, heads, crankshaft, rods, Cylinders, pistons, camshaft, rocker arms, to name just a few. Inspection will tell you this. But you may need help here understanding what does need attention. Some stuff is pretty straight forward. If you see scratches, gouges etc, you can bet these will need attention.

The assembly is pretty easy. Take it slow, make sure you have everything correct. If you have any doubts, stop and recheck. Again, break the build into smaller process. Assemble the crank and rods. Fit the Oil pump and shaft. Fit the crank and rods to the case. Glue the bolt the case together. This is understanding that all measuring has been done and is correct. You may want to use a pro shop to do all the measuring etc after the parts are repaired etc.

This is quite common for us to do. We do the final cleaning, inspection and measuring and repair work for many shops and end users. We then supply the bearings etc fit them and do all the final clearance checks etc. All the customer has to do is to assemble knowing all clearances are correct.

I believe the Cam timing gives many sleepless nights. I can honestly tell you, its only because of the lack of understanding of what is happening with the valve motions. This is actually very simple when you have an understanding of what is happening.

Lots of first timers have built an engine. The advantage you have is you can take it step by step, take as long as you need and ask as many questions as you want. You can also sub out parts that you feel are above your head but still oversee the main project.
First thing to do is pull the engine, clean it, tear it down and clean the individual parts. You can work with your machine shop and get help with measurements. Taken one step at the time, anything is possible.
Watch a couple good youtube videos to get the overall gist of the teardown and build. Buy tools as you need them and enjoy the process.

Neil said it way better a couple minutes earlier. Listen to him.

As usual, Neil’s advice is excellent. If you are prepared to take your time and learn, you can do it. One note, Wayne has 2 books out, one on 101 Projects; and one specific to engine rebuilding. Make sure you have the rebuild book. This forum is an excellent resource, but be prepared to hear conflicting opinions-do your research and make your own decisions.

dho

Much like delivering a baby. You can do it but it will be stressful and more complicated than it needs to be.

One simple tip. "Too many minds" will create chaos. Given that there is no "right" way to do most tasks, pick one adviser you trust and follow their lead. Like most things, a consensus will usually muddy the waters.

Good luck and enjoy.

Perfect , Henry's answer is really good , it will be more stressful and time consuming than really necessary , and hopefully it will run well for many years .

It’s always easier to disassemble than to reassemble properly
Bruce

911SCRVA,

You're getting good advice from experienced DIYers and recognized pros. Some questions:

• what is the problem with the engine? Is it a running, but tired, high mileage original with bad leakdown and compression or is it damaged (over-rev, neglect, unknown history)
• what are your goals? a good running stock motor? a hot-rod?
• what kind of budget do you have? would you opt for new Mahle piston and cylinders or would you economize with replated cylinders and aftermarket pistons?

I agree a DIY rebuild is feasible and lots of us have done it. You need good resources (factory manual, Wayne's rebuild book, this forum), some mechanical aptitude, patience, determination, a good attitude and (as Neil says) a plan.

One challenge for inexperienced builder (like me), is knowing what is re-usable and what has to be replaced. Sometimes it is a matter of measurements, but other times it takes a practiced eye (when I did my first transmission rebuild having a pro look at the disassembled unit and identify what needed replacement was invaluable).

Given all that, you are not too far from Bruce (Flat6pac). You might want to talk to him about options.

Good luck.

As you can read, there is a lot of support here if you go down this path. I would not recommend it if your goal is to save money. These guys are all "builders". By that I mean they all enjoy taking things apart and putting them back together. They can't help themselves. So their time spent is never a cost. It's their time and it's what they'd rather do. If they run into a difficult problem, they keep trying and trying. I've seen too many projects end, because of a lack of this attitude.

I bring this up, because your initial query is not what I'd expect from any of these builders. It's more about desire than ability. If I'm wrong, then welcome to the club!

Also, should you make one or more mistakes, do you have the time and money to rebuild it a second time?

Besides some innate talent, what makes a good engine builder is experience. If you don't have any experience, the odds of making a catastrophic mistake increase significantly. Contrary to what was said previously, the Porsche flat 6 is NOT one of the easiest engines to rebuild.

I suggest no, do not attempt. I have built several VW type 1, small block chevy's, big block mopar's, big block pontiac, Alfa 4 cyl dohc (over the past 50 years) and presently a 914/4. One of our current projects is a 914/6 conversion, I have a local experienced 911 engine builder completing the task. Rebuilding a 911 engine is on my bucket list, but given the risk, I am not ready.

Best of luck with whatever your decision

Based on some of the replies after this, Henry was spot on.

I cannot offer up anyone else's time but mine. I am here to help from start to finish and all parts in between.

Nice dig, Neil.....

Rebuilding a 911 engine is not for the feint of heart and is a tall order for someone with zero experience even with a book and someone on the phone to help. If the OP wants to tackle the job, by all means he should. But, people leading him down the path should note the challenge for what it is. Even people with experience building a couple of 911 engines have been known to make significant mistakes.

Oh, and let's not forget the cost of the tools one must buy to do the job correctly.....

Personal experience,

I found that taking it apart was equally important and time consuming as putting it back together. Patience, using the map/oxy mini torch to remove exhaust nuts, several times over, having never used one it took many tries till even the setting was right, all nuts came out clean, but it was squeeky event. Planning out how to remove the engine, that took weeks to plan, it was so easy in the end that all the study seemed foolish, but it was required. Seeing the car tilted at such an angle online makes you doubt it. Rocker arm shafts, taking them out nice and clean. Cleaning the engine as much as possible before the drop, then getting the engine onto an engine stand then cleaning it all over again, even buying the right engine stand took study and planning, another few days before a plan was reached. Measuring the bore of the valve guides using a split ball gauge (never used one before), removing the valves and looking for burrs up top the stem where someone had pinched the valve, that would rip the guides up and did, but the guides needed replacing. Buying the right/strong valve spring compressor that was sturdy enough but not too expensive, that took time.... Cleaning out the rocker arm shaft bores without scratching or enlarging, them, in the end it was simple but again planning, simple 2000 grit or even paper with paint scratch polish wrapped over a piece of rigid aquarium tubing and rotating only to the depth outside of the functional area, it goes on and on. But the dissaembly is what teaches you the re-assembly, you study/read about the re-assembly before dissaembly, that way when you remove everything, the questions you've asked yourself get partially answered. Measuring the timing chain sprocket alignemnt before removal just to see what Bentley/Wayne are talking about and checking learning a technique. Checking and measuring tensioner height and how much room there is for the tensioner to expand before it maxed out, gives a feel for the chain wear, all this I did along the way, and much more, so dissasembly and cleaning was equally or more important because this is our first view of how the engine is assembled and works. I've been playing with cars, even at age 20, my dad and I did a head gasket and I helped, etc... so, without that basic foundation of doing all the work on every car over 20 years, I'd be reluctant to take it on myself, I'd say, send it out.

Phil

Its Friday night after Thanksgiving and what else is there to do.

Someone way smarter and wiser than me, once said, "there is nothing to fear but fear itself".

Mount Everest was conquered, we landed on the moon having never done either before, too. And each of those are far more difficult that rebuilding one of these engines. These engines have a couple of unique querks but are not hard at all. You want to start on something more difficult, I can suggest some.

Don't get the cost of tools mixed into the mix of how hard is it going to be. In my first post I suggested building this on paper first. I can and many others can also, tell you want tools you will need. The cost of tools has nothing to do with your passion level. Passion will overcome any obstacle, cost or fear.

Each of us has different levels of fear and passion. I guess you have to decide where you lie in that scale.

Trust me when I say this, take your time, understand every step before you tackle it and if you have doubts, stop, rethink it and if required, redo. Ask and and all questions along the way. Know that every question you get answered, you will create 3 more. Help is available here and as I have offered, I will help any way I can.

You will have limitations for sure unless you decide to go into this full time and spends hundreds of thousands on tooling and machinery. These are areas you can identify and get outside help. You can save thousands on the disassembly, cleaning and assembly. As for tools, there isn't a huge list that you will need. Many here will loan and help out as well. You may even be able to borrow an engine stand. You need one for the disassembly and the assembly. In between it will be used to hang parts that get painted.

Another consideration, may be to have some else do the long block disassembly, cleaning, machine work and you assemble the engine. You at least get the satisfaction of accomplishing that.

I did.

It was stressful and I had to do four top ends before it was done. 100% related to nikasil plated cylinders.

You might plan on this taking a long time, but it’s like college: a lot of work and stress to get an “A” in engine rebuilding.

Willingness to take it apart if it isn’t right.

Money. Cutting corners to save money is a fool’s errand. Your car is only worth 1/4 of the total. Engine and transmission 3/4. What you put into it will be what it is worth.

Track all expenses with receipts.

Record all measurements

Take a billion pictures. Especially after you apply adhesive, but before to clamp/bolt the two parts together.

Years later, you will not be afraid of the next one.

"Years later, you will not be afraid of the next one."

That's an important point, you'll have freedom once you're comfortable having done it once to say casually, yeah, okay i can drop the engine and fix this or that without having to worry about dropping the car off and leaving it for a week or two while you wonder if it's sitting outside overnight. If I paid 25000$ to rebuild, I don't think I'd be driving it to near redline at every empty intersection, at every opportunity... Unless something flies through the side of the engine, I'll fix it, you have an 81 sc, pretty tough bottom end. That gives you freedom, unless of course you've got cash to burn, then that's freedom too!

I'd say earliest scenario is it's done by August next year, but March 2023 would be the right timeframe for my first time, that's the level of patience I required if started this time of year.

Phil

81scl

I have just gone over the edge - a top end hot rod build on my dad's 74
 

I'm about to do it, but i've been a car guy for almost 60 years.

This job is a major undertaking, you need tools, space, CASH, TIME, MORE CASH and a real desire and commitment to spend enough time researching, understanding what is going on and WHY clearances, cleanliness and planning the rebuild really matter. Not to beat the point into the ground, but this takes a devoted interest - and time.

End of Rant - I love cars, i'm 73, got a lift in my garage - my dad's 74 coupe and an old dirty 77 308 ferrari - for you to have a happy outcome, you gotta be committed/really interested, have the cash and hopefully a local guru, (like i have - Trackrash) that can answer your questions/ loan you tools and lend a hand with the difficult bits.

I am all for self reliance, exploring new things, but if you lack the commitment, space, (and spousal support :-), this might be a good thing to farm out, or partially farm out.

As you have seen, there is a huge availability of the most experienced and qualified help rooting for you to have fun and do it. Does it work for you???

With a lot of optimism and good willl,
chris

After I finally got done in 2016, I drove it extremely hard for two years.

I know exactly what is right. Especially Rod bolts and lighter pistons meant I set my own redline at 7500. Many track days

After two years, just for the fun of it, I did another top end, with ported heads and a bigger cam. Then did more track days.

In all I have single handed over 8 removals and reinstallation. I have lost count. Under two hours out. Two hours in.

Oh, and then I decided to rebuild my broken transmission.

All the things I did and learned from 2013 to now we’re the first time I did anything like that.

Planning, mental practice, and reading will only get you so far. Jumping in is when it gets real.

And then you will understand why a shop doing a rebuild for $25-30k is a reasonable sum.

You could always sign up for one of Tony's classes. At the very least you'll walk away with a better understanding of whether it's doable for YOU.

911 engines aren't the most simple engines out there to overhaul, that's for sure. And "book time" for an overhaul by a seasoned veteran is about 60 hours labor. If you haven't done much mechanical stuff before, multiply that by 4-5, at least. Even then, there's a lot of down time waiting for things like parts and machine shop work.

As mentioned before, there are a few special tools necessary, but even those can be overcome with some ingenuity and thought. Many of us have performed repairs at the race track with what we had available, when our own special tools are hundreds of miles away.

And don't forget that a disassembled 911 engine takes up a LOT of room in your garage, and at some point the car itself being in the garage is a burden for precious room. At the dealership, we had the luxury of keeping the car high up on the lift, but still had dedicated engine carts for all of the ancillary parts and a clean room for engine assembly.

Ideally, enlist the help of someone who has done it before.

There are several steps that are best done with more than two hands.
It is helpful to have an experienced eye look over the parts you plan to use monitor your progress and give you feedback. Plan to hear, "not clean enough" multiple times.

There are bound to be local experts in the club that you can talk with and likely convince one to come over and look at your progress, answer questions and help with some of the steps.

First engine I rebuilt was a 911 engine, early 1990's. I was able to enlist the help of the inimitable poster Walt Fricke.

Wayne's book didn't exist, no youtube videos to watch, and I didn't have a forum full of information available. (perhaps a blessing)

MVP player in your team.........
 

TwoBlu,

Having Walt Fricke is like playing a pick up basketball game with Lebron James in your team. Walt is an incredible troubleshooter with very impressive experience.

Tony

It's depend of how much you want to rebuild it.

But if you are not very excited by the adventur and money "is not an issu", let someone rebuilt it for you.

+ if you do not have tools, you will "loose" this money on bying thoses tools

I think what Black993 stated is very important to understand :"Your hands need to be experienced in how to do certain things and how those things are supposed to feel. I don't know how else to put it."

I agree that everything can be studied and experience is #1 but some just have the feel and some don't lets be honest. If you don't have it all you do is question every decision or step you just finished, this is where the stress comes in. I have rebuilt many engines, I started with VW water cooled, many many muscle cars and in recent years focused on just the beloved 911 aircooled. Many builders here in the US have commented here and I really do not question them but having build many different engines, the 911 engine is for sure not the easiest or even one of the easier ones. Yes, it's simple but there are many many parts and therefore many many mistakes that can be made. I am fortunate that its a hobby for me and i can take as much time as I want and need, that is the other very important part in my opinion.
To summ it up, i would not recommend you building your engine with the experience you have.

I am astounded at how much thought and advice this group has given me. Thank you.

I don't know what I'm going to do, but, to address one comment, the thought of rebuilding the engine myself was, yes, initially sparked by cost, but, more deeply, a desire to learn the engine. I have an immense respect for the car and car--and also those who know how to work on it. I would like to rebuild the engine, but, at the same time, I don't want to make a catastrophic mistake mid-rebuild.

You've given me a lot to think about. Once I've explored all the options, I'll be sure to let you know how I'm proceeding.

Again, thank you all very much for your responses.

At times, I am drawn into helping those that touch a certain part of my soul. I did this for Jeff in Australia. I am offering to help here in a similar fashion.

I am now located in central Florida, not that far from where you are. Maybe there is a way to help you with some in person schooling.

Contact me directly and we can discuss some options.

nh

LMN Motorsports in Virginia Beach, (757) 947-1451, is an excellent shop. Google LMN Motorsports. Lutzo, the owner, has won the 24 hours of Daytona as a crew chief. Dave

Lots of good posts here.

Yes, you can do it.

You need all of the correct tools. You need to completely understand each assembly operation and what you are checking and doing during each operation. Every engine builder at one time built their first engine. So the thought that you need experience is moot.

Sure, buy Wayne's book, research the forum for ideas. But in both cases know enough to find out what advice not to follow in both cases.

Call up or email an engine builder and ask for advice. We all likely did it at one point in our careers. Neil has offered help, Henry would likely lend you his ear too. As would I.

If you are going to do it, commit to doing it "right". We have seen DIY rebuilds that were well done and ones where the fellow should not even have attempted it. Pick who you want to be. If you are willing to invest in the correct tools, find a good source for the head rebuilding and other specialty machine work, then give it a go. But don't mess around. If you are not 100% committed, don't start.

Cheers

I DIY'ed the top end. I don't think I would recommend it if you don't have long history of DIY on mechanical processes and have knowledge of mechanical things in general. For example: torquing nuts and bolts, how O rings work, cleaning threads, use of never-seize, getting and keeping things clean, when a proper tool is needed compared to when using a make-shift tool will be okay, pressing in seals, what items should be triple checked, use of measuring tools and 100 things I'm forgetting. If you can find a pro to do the rebuild after all the sheet metal/etc. is taken off that would be my suggestion. When you have a pro (e.g. Henry Schmidt) do this work they know all this along with how things feel when they go together. They also know many places where the design can be easily improved - the DIY'er is not likely to know these points. Remember there are lots of places for oil to leak. All that being said. There is a certain pride of tackling this yourself and it adds to the experience of owning and getting to know the car.

Not to knock anyone's knowledge but race care crew chief is no indication of mechanical expertise.
I once had an IndyCar crew chief of the year (1990s) work for me as a line mechanic. Great guy, infinite contacts but useless on the line.
I once asked him to clean up the wiring on a track 914/6. After about two hours he came to me looking for a new harness. Right way to do it? maybe if there was actually a replacement available. He was used to just calling Lola for a new harness.

I rebuilt mine, but I have to say I've been monkeying around with cars since I was 16, With that said I'd never done ANYTHING close to rebuilding a Porsche engine so, IMHO, you certainly can do this. Just have the mindset to focus and follow Wayne's book. Of course the resources here will be invaluable when you come across something that does not make sense or needs clarification. Go for it, I VERY much enjoyed the project.

I may be heading into similar territory, so you're not alone. Getting my 3.2 ready to install, half a head bolt fell out (had exhaust valve cover off to replace a stud). So, while I've done everything else on my restoration, and swapped the 3.2 for the original 2.7, I've never cracked a 911 engine. Rebuilt a Chevy 350 with my dad 34 years ago, but that doesn't count for much. I ordered Wayne's book and I'll read it to decide if it's something I think I can tackle. With 90k miles +/- on an otherwise very healthy engine I have to decide how far to go, and what performance upgrades I want to/can do.

I'd say go for it. Lots of balanced opinions here from experienced folks. You have to sort of discover who those people are though from spending lots of time reading here. They will become apparent. Henry's advice on finding a mentor and following their advice will save you from a lot of worrying and over analysis. Wayne's book is indispensable.

Most important advice I can offer is to be patient, and enjoy every step of the process. Don't rush it. Do the research until you find the answers, and if you have to pick from several answers, most the time they are all correct, just slightly different. Example. Carrera tensioners. I'm running them on my car. My brother's 911 does not have them, but we did Jerry Wood's mod to his when we rebuilt his tensioners. Two approaches, both work fine.

You will gain an incredible amount of knowledge and confidence and it will affect how you drive and enjoy your car for the better.

Here's my threads:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/936456-broken-head-stud-feeling-sort-sick-right-now.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/937294-rebuilding-my-83-3-0-a.html

I was a complete novice when I did my first engine years ago. I guess that's the case for all of us as first timers :). It can be done with research and care.