Measurement Tools
 

What is the recommendation for the required measurement tools, vernier calipers, etc. used in the rebuild process?? acceptable degree of accuracy, (.001 or .0001)? Where to find and at what price for the home rebuilder?

The place to find them is Harbor freight. Direct from China. So inexpensive you can't beleive it.

Set of Micrometers, 1' thru 4", Digital dial caliper (optional but if you do not use micrometers a lot, they are a sanity check and easily convert between us and metric and are just darn handy to have) Inside snap guages for cylinders and other holes. Hole guage for small holes like valve guides. feeler guage. All told about $100 to $150 depending on sales. US instruments, eg Starret to do the same thing may be as high as $1000 total. No more accurate, and may not be any more durable, but are repairable (big deal at Chineese prices).

HF also has a 6" digital vernier caliper that is a perfect rip-off of the Mitsutoyo version. It usually is $19 on sale vs. $179 for the Japanese version (I have both). You should try to use micrometers that read to 0.00005" or 0.001mm, if you can. The digital versions make the metric measurements so much easier, but then you are talking some big bucks.

I have some China-made measuring tools, as well as some by Mitsutoyo, Snap-on, and Starrett. By actual working comparison, there is no doubt which are better for quality and accuracy.

rw --This is timely with my other question. Thanks!
snowman, what's an inside snap gauge? Where do you get one?

You mean I don't need a $700 dial bore gauge set to measure the inside diameters and cylinders. I've seen inside bore measuring tool on HF. They look like a T. I assume you adjust these to the inside diameter and measure it with the caliper?

What are the pros and cons of the dial bore gauge other than the cost?

An inside snap guage is just what it sounds like and can do just as good a job as a $700 bore guage, just a lot slower.

It is a T shaped thing that has two spring loaded opposed pins. First you depress the pins and lock them by twisting the handle. Place in the hole to be measured and release the pins, so they make contact with the cylinder or hole, jiggle them with great finnese and lock into position. Remove from hole and measure the pins with a normal outside micrometer. Repeat as many times as necessary to get all the measurements needed and to double check your measurements.

The guage requires some practice to get good readings, but thats the way it has been done for a very long time, it works. Any business that uses one is loosing money doing so as the dial bore guage is much much quicker and requires less talent to operate. But if you are only doing one engine for yourself its the only way to go.

Bob W. - I was in a similar situation, had a decent set of hand tools, (lots of wrenches and sockets), but not alot of Porsche tools or precision tools, calipers, micrometers, etc. About six months ago, after had my engine apart, I got introduced to ebay. (Avoided it for years - for those who have never checked it out - WATCH OUT - it can become addictive!!!)

IF you have the time to be PATIENT and look, you can find on ebay quality NEW calipers, etc (Mitutoyo, Starrett, - swiss / usa made) for LESS than Harbor Frieght prices.

I got a NEW DIGITAL MITUTOYO DIAL INDICATOR (inches AND metric) for less than $25, same for micrometers, depth mic's, gauge blocks, etc.

HOWEVER, I BELIEVE IN BUYING MOST OF MY STUFF FROM PELICAN TO SUPPORT THIS BBS, IT'S ONLY SPECIAL HIGH COST TOOLS THAT I SHOP AROUND FOR ---- AND I would not comment on buying somewhere other than Pelican, BUT FOR THE FACT THAT STUFF IS BEING PUT OUT HERE ALREADY RECOMMENDING SHOPPING AT HF, FOR OFF BRAND TOOLS FROM CHINA. I look at buying tools, the same way that led me to buy a Porsche over a Detroit car, I generally plan to keep it a really long time.

After reading Wayne's tool recommendations in the front of his 1st book "101 Projects of Your 911" and spending more hours I want to count I have accumulated just about every tools mentioned in his "How to Rebuild and Modify a 911 Engine" and I found a number of sites that have fantastic deals on tools.
I am just a novice home mechanic, not even close to being in the same ball park as those who have access to shops or a Bridgeport, etc.

(One example is on ebay - you might check out the seller ID "jackofalltrades001")

I am sure if you take the time and look around you can find EXCELLENT QUALITY PRECISION INSTRUMENTS FOR ABOUT THE SAME PRICE YOU WOULD PAY FOR SIMILAR ITEMS AT HF - I still buy stuff from HF but after comparing precision instruments, I buy those type of tools elsewhere (calipers, micrometers, etc)

I'LL REPEAT - YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY PATIENT, you may have to invest ALOT of TIME, constantly checking items and maybe only 1 out of 100/200 items is a steal, but it is possible to build a collection of excellent tools for a whole lot less than you would think!!

jcbear, what was the best way to search for the tools on e-bay.

We have some old Starrett tools from my dad. A 2-6" micrometer. All the anvals are there but we are missing the 2" & 4" standards.
(Can these still be found?)

We also have a Starrett depth micrometer with many shafts in 1" increments to extend if from 0" to probably 6-7". The clicker knob on the back end of this comes off so you can insert different size shafts.
The back end of the shaft is threaded with a tiny nut that has two flats. I believe this nut is adjusted to calabrate the various shafts. It's simple to calibrate the 1" (Just back it out so the shaft is flush with the surface of the flat part of the tool and adjust the tiny nut so it reads zero.)
Does anyone know how to calibrate the longer shafts?

William - if you go to the main ebay screen - on the left hand side of the screen you will see CATEGORIES -- click on BUSINESS & INDUSTRIAL

On the BUSINESS & INDUSTRIAL screen there will be a bold heading METALWORKING EQUIPMENT -- click on Inspection, Measuring

On the INSPECTION, MEASURING screen, along the left hand side there will be a CATEGORIES section. There will be a list of precision instrument labels (gage blocks, indicators, micrometers, etc.) (the number adjacent is the number of items listed for sale) -- click what ever type of instrument you are looking for.

ANOTHER APPROACH IS TO CLICK ON THE "SEARCH" BUTTON ON THE TOP OF THE MAIN SCREEN AND ENTER THE SPECIFICS OF WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR, I.E. A PARTICULAR TYPE (MICROMETER?) (METRIC?) OR MANUFACTURER (MITUTOYO?)

Good luck - ACQUIRING the NECESSARY tools to properly do a rebuild, as set out by Wayne in his book, IS a MAJOR INVESTMENT and COST - especially to the novice enthusiast who wants to take on rebuilding a Porsche engine - it's the precision that really distinquishes a PORSCHE.

I won't argue that the Chinese versions are as good as the US or Japanese ones, but for one-tenth the cost, they come surprisingly close. I also know of some Indian and Russian precision measuring tools that are surprisingly good for the price, and are metric (no conversion). I personally can't see a home mechanic buying $1000 in micrometers, for the amount of use they will get. I do use top-of-the-line Mitsutoyu and Starrett tools on my engine rebuilds, but I think it is overkill.

JP- I whole heartedly agree with you. My experience since starting, about a year ago, on making FIXEN-UP MY PORSCHE - my MAIN HOBBY, is that you can find top-of-the-line tools for about the same price as the Chinese versions. Sometimes new, sometimes used, - on ebay I have found some excellent used micrometers/calipers really, really cheap. Not every day, or even every month, but ocassionally - they are there.

I look at part of this like previous threads on the UNDYING DISCUSSION on the Porsche Factory YOKE, the $200+ investment can be RETURNED by selling it (on ebay or elsewhere) at some future day.

Looking at ALL the tools on ebay, I think that if at somepoint I no longer want to rebuild Porsche engines as my main pasttime, I WILL BE ABLE TO SELL ALL OF THE QUALITY TOOLS I'VE COLLECTED AND RECOUP MY INVESTMENT..... I AM, HOWEVER, NOT SO SURE THAT THERE IS A MARKET FOR USED CHINESE TOOLS. Maybe I'm dreaming.

THere are no such things as used chinese tools, they are landfill.

I haven't used the Chinese tools but I don't see why they couldn't be made cheap & accurate. A precision thread is not rocket science after all.

If you're a tool junky (like me) but frugal (like me) you'll find that the low priced Starett, Brown and Sharp and Mititoyo aren't that expensive.

This is what I found I use:
- 1", 3" and 4" micrometers (Starrett and Brown & Sharp) - are about $100 each. I haven't needed a 2" mic.
- Dial indicting bore gauge. The low end Mititoyo is under $200.
I frankly found the inexpensive "T" type bore guage impossible to use. I just could never develop the necessary "feel" to get consistent readings.
- An inexpensive digital caliper. Jack is right, these are the bees knees. I use mine almost at much as my 13mm wrench. I use a $70 Mititoyo.

-Chris

Chris-

Where would I look to find some good deals on the Mititoyu tools?

Thanks

JP

I get my tools at MSC but I don't know if it is a "good deal".
-Chris

Other JP,

Also Try

http://www.use-enco.com/

and

http://www.msiviking.com/

Enco has good prices on dial bore gauges.

Is it just me, or are there a lot of "JP"s on this board?

http://65.33.97.117:443/mic.jpg

Chris. It's not just the threads that matter. If you are doing critical stuff, then you should do a gage block stack and check your micrometer to the stack. This lets you know exactly what the reading on your micrometer should be to get the size you intend. The number is just a number, the correct size is everything.

I am totally in agreement on the mit digi calipers. I use mine for just about everything except cooking.


My babys. When it has to be right. Swiss made Etalon's, a bit more than the starrets but worth it to me. They have always been dead nuts to gage block stacks.
The mit uni micrometer is another really cool tool that I have come to depend on. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/etalon.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/mit-uni.jpg

The chink tools seem to give good readings. They come with guage blocks that seem to be accurate, they seem to give the exact same readings as the "good" mics do, they have hardned carbide tips... but they do not have the feel and look of a good tool. I would not hesitate to recommend them to any do it your selfer. They seem fine for intermittant, ocasional use, but I would only quesiton them in continuous, every day use, and where my business depended on it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jgparker
[B]Other JP,
Is it just me, or are there a lot of "JP"s on this board?
QUOTE]

Just enuff, me thinks:D

Since I do this stuff for a living (measure widgets), I find this thread interesting.
The only serious problem I have here is the telescoping gauge
(snap gauge). They are inaccurate in the hands of an amature and incredibly slow in the hands of a pro. Since they a transfer gauge, the chances of making an error are doubled.

I would not consider checking a cylinder without a bore gauge and super mic (or jo blocks) to set the bore gauge. Best to hire it done (and you can learn something while watching).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jgparker
[B]Other JP,
Is it just me, or are there a lot of "JP"s on this board?
QUOTE]

Just enuff, me thinks:D

Since I do this stuff for a living (measure widgets), I find this thread interesting.
The only serious problem I have here is the telescoping gauge
(snap gauge). They are inaccurate in the hands of an amature and incredibly slow in the hands of a pro. Since they a transfer gauge, the chances of making an error are doubled.

I would not consider checking a cylinder without a bore gauge and super mic (or jo blocks) to set the bore gauge. Best to hire it done (and you can learn something while watching).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jgparker
[B]Other JP,
Is it just me, or are there a lot of "JP"s on this board?
QUOTE]

Just enuff, me thinks:D

Since I do this stuff for a living (measure widgets), I find this thread interesting.
The only serious problem I have here is the telescoping gauge
(snap gauge). They are inaccurate in the hands of an amateur and incredibly slow in the hands of a pro. Since they a transfer gauge, the chances of making an error are doubled. You don't know what tedium is till you've been forced to use one to do a bore.

I would not consider checking a cylinder without a bore gauge and super mic (or jo blocks) to set the bore gauge. Best to hire it done (and you can learn something while watching).

Hello JP. good to hear your still measuring widgets. I am still making molds and things seem to be picking up.

Back to the topic. I would recomend that everyone buy a grade B jo block/gage block set. It's the best way to be sure you are getting the size you are supposed to be getting. +-.00005 for around $100
Some of the Porsche tollerances are pretty close and this will provide a good double check for your micrometers and your feel. Don't under estimate the feel part.

I'll assume you're talking to this JP:D


Hey, 5
Not picking up for us'n.
I'll be checking widgets for at least another 50 days.
My number didn't come up but I got a 60 warn notice anyhew???

A clerical error, I'm told. I'm agin' it.
At best, I'll be on the bubble.:eek:

JP,

I dunno, but 60 days can be an eternity in your biz. Was that before or after the new military contract?

Sorry I don't get to see you in"action" on ole smokey. She is at Mike's awaiting a heart operation. I'm supposed to get the full diagnosis on Wed/Thurs.

For me, I learned early on, some folks have the touch and some don't. Those without (like me) are best off letting the other guys do this work for the really critical stuff. If I do want to do the work, I have discovered that quality tools make a great difference in your sucess. It is surprising how small manufacturing variances or errors in technique can results in messed up readings. Quality tools can help protect you from some of this since the error is more limited to the operator.

I have a China dial gauge that works pretty good in the accuracy dept. I have a few Starrets too, but they are a bit too big for the cam timing job.

Dial bore gauges are the best for measuring the inside bores but remember to bolt together and torque the case through bolts and outside bolts before you measure!

-Wayne

www.mcmaster.com
Just ordered the cheap dial bore gauge $112
I ordered thread inserts, Tap etc. they showed up in a day or two.
Very quick.

I also ordered some left hand drills, I have one broken exhaust stud to get out.

"The chink tools seem to give good readings...."

Snowman,
I think you intended to compliment the accuracy of inexpensive tools, but you did it with a racial slur. Would you care to rephrase that? For future racial slurs, what part of your ethnicity makes measuring tools?

Sherwood

the redneck is showing.

Huh!?

. . so the RED is not part of the scarf.


interesting :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/meltingsnow.JPG

more B&S
 

Lighten up on snow a bit. PC sucks. My genetic predisposition is towards chasing sheep, invading France ,making precision Veapons, getting drunk (mmm single malt) and killing when there is nothing else to do. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif

Most of which I don't do. ;)

back on topic A B&S test indicator, the holder part of a indicol, a Starret flexible holder, and a few Kant twist clamps. I know exactly what my clearance is.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/v-1-1.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/v-2-2.jpg

Sounds very interisting. Where did you find a bore guage for this price? Would be a valuable chink to add to my tool box.

PS, chink is NOT a racial slur unless used in that context, in mine it refers to very very inexpensive tools produced in the mainland.

Pelican sells a Fowler Cylinder Bore Dial Gauge Set, 2" to 6", 0.0005" graduations, 6" depth for $95. (not a bad price for a US manufacturer) If you need to measure a smaller bore size than 2", ENCO has most of theirs on sale for ~$45. These are Chinese or equivalent.

http://www.use-enco.com/hotdeals/hd0603/40.pdf

"PS, chink is NOT a racial slur unless used in that context, in mine it refers to very very inexpensive tools produced in the mainland.

Gee, does that mean it's okay to use any racial slang (e.g. nigger, kike, dago, slant-eye, etc.) as long as you're insensitive to what that term means to members (and non-members) of that ethnic group?

I'm afraid some folks confuse the demarcation between PC and a derogatory term. The fact that I pointed this out to you would indicate at least one person on this forum feels this way. If you so choose, go ahead and exist in your world.

To the other folks on this thread - sorry to digress.

Sherwood

Well now I feel bad for making fun of rednecks.
I suppose "trailer Park trash" isn't okay either. . .hmmm. . .
:rolleyes:

Sherwood; take a step back and reallize most of us here see the idiousy of someone posting about 'throw'n sum chink tool in the landfill'.
In fact I believe that translates to 'will be getting angry, working on the car in the back yard.'

Last I heard, rednecks are not an ethnic group nor is trailer park trash although there is probably a stereotype of this latter group. Some of my relatives are rednecks and they are not of the white persuasion.

I'm sure many on this forum understand the difference. I was merely trying to enlighten one person's perception.

Sherwood

Any tools are enlightening, no matter where they are made. For any other terms of enligtenment I usually watch The Benny Hill Show, or my favorite Southpark.

I ordered the $112 Dial bore gauge from www.Mcmaster.com on Monday at about noon EST. It showed up at my house sometime on tuesday. (It was there when I got home from work.) My expectations were certainly exceeded! The 2" micrometer was missing from the order. But I found a note that said they were sorry but they had to get it from another wharehouse. It showed up UPS ground at about 10:30 am est this morning. Again they exceeded my expectations!

FYI, I live in Maryland, just outside D.C. The order I recieved this morning was UPS Ground from New Jersey.


Although it was advertised as a "economy model" in the cataloge it was made by Fowler. It's range is 1.4" TO 6". It has 2 heads with 2 different sets of anvals. I guess that's why it's a little more expensive than the fowler that I saw above is now sold by Pelican. (I didn't know they sold them.) I think I need the smaller range to measure the cam shaft bearing bores. It's still not small enough to measure the intermediate shaft bores in the case. My case has the bearings, I doubt these bores are a problem.

I bought some 4.5mm drill bits to do the measurement on the aluminum gear on the intermediate shaft.

Has anyone had experience replacing valve guides?
I bought a counterbore bit for about $15 that has a pilot and although it is not metric it's just about 13mm. (Isn't 1/2 inch just under 13mm?)

I was thinking of removing the guides myself.
The books state the the new valve guides have an external diameter that is larger than the bore in the head (13mm) and a internal diameter that is reamed out to the final dimension of 9mm.

The process is to remove the old guide, measure the bore and machine the new guide a nat's ass over for a press fit.

Does anyone know the exact dimensions of the new guides?
It doesn't seem like a big deal to get the old ones out.
If I take the heads to a machine shop does it make sence for me to supply the valves and the guides?

I forgot to mention. I was at home this morning because I was up till 3AM playing with my new toy. I measured my pistons and cylinders.
Sorry Wayne, but it turns out that although everything is worn some they are still within the acceptable tolerances for running clearance and the ring side clearance are good. I still might buy new pistons and cylinders, but that is less likely. The $112 I spent may have saved me $2500, but I have a great piece of mind knowing I measured them myself. I know what I have!

More parts to measure tonight!

The guy I use for heads does them for about $400 ($700 w/new valves) and returns them in a couple of days with the spring heights set etc. Years ago I talked to local machinist who did Porsche heads now and then for a shop I know. The machinist's labor alone would have been about the same. At that price it doesn't make sense to do it myself.
-Chris

Is that the going rate for all the heads? What does it include?
Where and how much does it cost to ship back and forth?
Is there a machine shop thread on this bbs?
Thanks!

I replaced the valve guides in my 911T. Very straight forward if you use original size guides as you do not have to machine the heads to fit.

The guides can be removed with a punch. The punch should have a pilot and the major diameter must be slightly smaller than the od of the old guides. If I remember correctly these guides are removed by pounding them from the cylinder side outward towards the top of the head. Fairly simple and safe to do.

If you have differen't size guides the hole is critical. It sounds like you have the correct tool, a drill/reamer combo. Only use one designed for this application. These are usually sized to work with only one size guide. The press fit is about 0.002 to 0.003 inches oversize. The guides should have a taper to get them started, be cooled to as low as possible, dry ice is adviseable. Some kind of press fit lube is also highly desireable. Knowing the correct height (you measured the old ones first, right?) you simple pound them in using the same tool as you did to remove the old ones.

Finally you ream the inside to exact size required, check with actual valve for fit.

Additional note that I forgot. Run a ball hone thru the guide after the final size is obtained by reaming. Only two to four passes are needed. the purpose is to establish a cross hatch pattern to help improve oiling of the guide. Not a necessity but nice.

Then you can have or do the valve grinding of the seats to finish it up.

It only took me 4 hours start to finish, including the valve seat cutting (I used the Neway cutters).