2.2L Case mounting threads -Missing insert

[scootermcrad]

Hey everyone!

I'm going to start a more official build thread on my 2.2L project, but for now I'm just trying to get the yoke attached so I can get it on a stand, clean it up and inspect it.

When I started looking over the case for this engine to see what I need to get it up on a stand, I noticed I seem to be missing an insert. The two bottom holes seem to be a good match to M10x1.5 (same as PET calls out) and the left/passenger side top hole WITH the insert in place is also M10x1.5. The missing insert location has a thread that appears to be an M14x1.5.

Is this problem solved by simply purchasing the correct insert (N 022 202 1 ?) and installing it? I feel like it couldn't be that simple, but maybe it is. Ultimately this case is going to get sent out for the typical mag case work, but need to get the yoke on it and get it securely up on the stand, so I can get it apart and look at everything.

Thanks for any advice. Sorry if this is an obvious question. This is my first rodeo with these engines, so I want to do my due diligence and ask questions if I'm not sure. Especially with an engine that has very little back-history.

Nevertheless, I'm super excited to finally be at this phase of my project. It's been years in the making. More on that later, though...

[scootermcrad]

Looking around a little further, is it possible that this had a Case Saver in it? Seems the Mother Ship sells a Case Saver that just about matches this thread (I only went a couple threads deep with the M14x1.5. Maybe a 2.0 pitch would be a match):

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/RP102.htm?pn=RP-102-INT&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3uycrree-QIVnhXUAR33ogBiEAQYASABEgLhSPD_BwE

Looks like maybe I did ask a stupid newbie question. (palm to forehead) If this is really what I need, any installations suggestions? When I send the cases out I'll have this re-evaluated... If I can ever get it up on a stand.

[Flat6pac]

Use the same case saver/ timesert you would use for a pulled head stud.
Bruce

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by Flat6pac

Use the same case saver/ timesert you would use for a pulled head stud.
Bruce

Thanks! Looks like the one in the link should do the trick. Probably need to pickup a M14x2.0 tap to clean up the threads. May as well get an M10x1.5 while I’m at it.

[scootermcrad]

Can anyone tell me if the M10x1.5 with M14x2.0 external thread Case Saver uses just a standard straight thread pitch, or does the case require a special thread profile cutter for installation? I would like to pick up a thread chaser to clean up the garbage in these threads so I can verify they are correct and not damaged before trying to re-insert a Case Saver. I don't want to run an M14x2.0 chaser in there if that's not the correct pitch/profile. Going to pick up a M10x1.5 chaser while I'm at it.

Thanks

[cgarr]

Its a standard 14X2.0 nothing special

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by cgarr

Its a standard 14X2.0 nothing special

Thanks Craig! I appreciate it. That's great news

[scootermcrad]

Ok. I finally got around to this. Ordered a few 14x2.0 inserts from our host. Tonight I spent a little time examining and cleaning up the threads in the case and they are DEFINITELY M14x1.5 and NOT M14x2.0. The threads are in great shape, in fact. However, these inserts I bought obviously aren’t going in without a pitch change, and that doesn’t seem like the right move here.

I started looking for M14x1.5 inserts and I’m coming up empty. Our host doesn’t seem to have them, either. Does anyone have a source? Am I missing something obvious here?

[scootermcrad]

I've been searching for a couple days now, and the closest I'm coming to finding the right insert is a Time-sert (Big-sert) p/n 50155. The tech rep at Time fasteners says, "It's very close to an M14x1.5 external thread", but looking at this website (https://www.wiseautotools.com/time-sert-50155-m10x1-5x24-5-over-sized-big-sert-replacement-insert/) they are measuring out much larger. A standard M10x1.5x24.5 Time-sert uses an STI thread that is much smaller than an M14 thread. Closer to an M12.

I'm running out of ideas. I called our host directly and they definitely don't stock these and referred me to Time-serts.

EDIT: Additional note. I did look up the part directly that the PET shows (N 022 202 1) and had a dealership look up the P/N to see who currently might stock it, and he said nobody in the US currently has it listed as in stock. Only Germany. If that's what I have to do, then so be it, but it's listed as a "helicoil" and this does not appear to have a thread for a helicoil. I don't want to order something from Germany only to find out it's not right. So if anyone has any information on THAT, it would be helpful.

[PeteKz]

If you can't find a Timesert of the appropriate dimensions, I can think of two other ways to do this:
1. Make a custom insert. If you have the tools and skill, you can do it yourself, or any machine shop could do it. I would start with an M14x1.5 bolt, test fit it to make sure it threads in securely, then drill down the exact center of it (preferably with a lathe, or a drill press if you are real careful), and then tap the inside hole to M10x1.5. Then cut it to length, and use epoxy to put it in place, and bolt it up to the tranny case so that the epoxy cures with the insert in the mechanical tension it will see in use.
2. Use the M14x1.5 timesert. Then use an M12x1.5 bolt to the tranny case. You will have to drill out the hole in the tranny case a little to fit the M12 bolt.

[ed mayo]

Those inserts were factory done on all cases. Pretty sure they were helicoils. Try search for helicoil sellers.

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

If you can't find a Timesert of the appropriate dimensions, I can think of two other ways to do this:
1. Make a custom insert. If you have the tools and skill, you can do it yourself, or any machine shop could do it. I would start with an M14x1.5 bolt, test fit it to make sure it threads in securely, then drill down the exact center of it (preferably with a lathe, or a drill press if you are real careful), and then tap the inside hole to M10x1.5. Then cut it to length, and use epoxy to put it in place, and bolt it up to the tranny case so that the epoxy cures with the insert in the mechanical tension it will see in use.
2. Use the M14x1.5 timesert. Then use an M12x1.5 bolt to the tranny case. You will have to drill out the hole in the tranny case a little to fit the M12 bolt.

Pete! I like your way of thinking! Option #1 sounds very appealing, actually. Even if it's just to get it properly bolted up to my yoke and on a stand for disassembly. I have a lathe, so that's no problem. And if I use a 70 or 90 mm length bolt, I have plenty of meat to chuck up in the lathe without damaging external threads. I'll just need to order a high quality M10x1.5 tap.

I was thinking earlier about doing this, but figured I would go for the "off the shelf" method first. The "something came out of there so it must be available to go back in" method. HA! Never dreamed this would be such an issue.

Anyone feel like it would need to be post heat treated/hardened for any reason??

The Case-Savers that I ordered from our Mother Ship, don't appear to have any thread locking mechanism, so I'm assuming they were intended to get locktited in. They are more or less just "thread adapters".

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by ed mayo

Those inserts were factory done on all cases. Pretty sure they were helicoils. Try search for helicoil sellers.

So the WERE helicoils! That's good to know!

EDIT: Just looked up standard Helicoils for that size and they're a bit too short.

I'm thinking to get this thing up on a stand, I'll just machine the insert and order the correct P/N from Germany and see what comes in.

[PeteKz]

If you have a lathe, then make your own part. It will take less time than finding and ordering something online. Certainly less time than discussing it on this forum!

No it doesn't need to be heat treated, in fact, it should not be. Engineering practice for nuts and bolts is for the bolts to be high strength, and the nuts to be more malleable, so they will conform to the bolt threads (which should be rolled, not cut). Those inserts should NOT come out. So epoxy it in place with a moderate load to ensure it sits firmly against the threads in the case.

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

If you have a lathe, then make your own part. It will take less time than finding and ordering something online. Certainly less time than discussing it on this forum!

No it doesn't need to be heat treated, in fact, it should not be. Engineering practice for nuts and bolts is for the bolts to be high strength, and the nuts to be more malleable, so they will conform to the bolt threads (which should be rolled, not cut). Those inserts should NOT come out. So epoxy it in place with a moderate load to ensure it sits firmly against the threads in the case.

Good stuff! Thank you for your input on the subject. Any epoxy systems you lean towards for a case like this? (sorry for the pun)

[PeteKz]

Hah, Hah! I'd just go with JB Weld. Make sure parts are clean, etc.

[Mr Beau]

Some other options:
M14 x 2.0: https://www.ezlok.com/search?thread_m=M14~2.0

All sizes: https://www.ezlok.com/search

Uses 'standard' tap sizes if you pick a solid wall insert.

[Flat6pac]

Timesert makes the full installation kit with drill, tap and installer
Bruce

[Flat6pac]

Timesert makes the full installation kit with drill, tap and installer
Bruce

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by Mr Beau

Some other options:
M14 x 2.0: https://www.ezlok.com/search?thread_m=M14~2.0

All sizes: https://www.ezlok.com/search

Uses 'standard' tap sizes if you pick a solid wall insert.

Thank you for the links! The M14x2.0 is the same size as the Case-savers. I'm concerned that if I were to try and re-thread an M14x1.5 to a 2.0 pitch, that I will do more damage than good. Sucks that I'm 0.5 off on the pitch. SOOO close to just putting a Case-saver in there and moving on.

Originally Posted by Flat6pac

Timesert makes the full installation kit with drill, tap and installer
Bruce

Yeah, I think this is going to be the last resort. Time sells a kit to do the Big-Serts with the tap and installation tool. If I mess up this case during the process, that will be my last resort. Glad I'll still have that option. For one insert, I don't think I want to go to that extent unless I have to.

I think my new "Plan A" is going to be purchasing a M10x1.5 tap (which I'll use often, probably) and machine my own insert from an M14x1.5 bolt. Probably makes the most sense all the way around. I'll order a couple inserts from Porsche using the PET number, to have on hand before I permanently install the machined insert. This will at least get me up on a stand for inspection and tare-down.

Some great suggestions here! I appreciate all the help! Never thought one simple insert would turn into such a big thing. I guess that's sort of the fun of it, though.