2.2T to 2.x

[Rough_Rider]

Currently running a tired 2.2T in AX & DE. Chassis, suspension, etc is focused in that direction.
Budget right now is super tight figure 2-3K so have to stick as much existing bits as possible. Looking for a nice linear torquey motor.

Can someone pick apart my two concepts

1st Install new 2.4 P/C's, 2.7 crank, 2.4 E cam. (estimate 165hp/170tq)
2nd Rebore 2.2 C's to 85mm (maybe 86), JE P's, 2.7 crank, 2.4 E cam. (estimate 170hp/??tq)

Finally this is prolly a real stupid question but do i have to replace the rods going from 2.2 crank to 2.7?

[022spa]

you are going to need more money.
Or, without spitting the case: (big savings)
at least new pistons and cylinders, (Biral since you cant use nickies with out having piston squirters put inn)
Cams will cost you plus some webbers.
A front cooler for competition use will set you back some money too.
think a few bucks for gaskets and possibly rebuilt heads for your tired old motor etc.
Pulled studs? (probably not with the T but when high compression is put on they might pull)
It really adds up.
Crank and rods for a 2.7 is out of the question on this budget $$$.
Sorry.

[cnavarro]

Not true. Nikasil itself is very oleophilic. You can use nikasil cylinders without piston squirters. We do it all the time with the many four cylinder engines for which we make Nickies. Not to say that oil squirters aren't a good thing - they help to keep piston temperatures down, which helps when a high-silicon content aluminum alloy is used for the piston, which is weaker than say, a 2618 forging alloy, which has little or no silicon.

[jpnovak]

What year? '70 T did not have piston squirters... '71 T did. He may be fine.

Cheapest would be to find some 2.2E pistons (or equiv) and some E cams. (assuming he does not head head/case or other machine work)Cost only goes up from there.

[Rough_Rider]

Good answers, to fill in some of the blanks. Its a 71T so should have squirters. case has already had some light work (boat tailing, etc) Nothing that gains any noticable performance but i believe the case is solid.

I intend to strip it & split it, with a little help from my friends :-)

Already have webers, oil tank & front cooler, she was built with a much bigger engine in mind. Today's issue is a crutch fix for low compression / oil contamination, probably due to exhaust valve seat Or rings.

[V12man]

Bore to 85mm
10.3:1 JE's
S Cams
Setup ports and webers to S Specs, advance curve etc.

And you will have a fantastic fun motor - just like mine - although it's been replaced with a 2.7 RS spec motor, the high comp 2.2 is great fun to drive, and loves to rev.

[304065]

What's wrong with the engine? Leakdown? Oil pressure? Leaks?

Seriously, for a budget of $3,000 not much can be done. If you split the case at all there's the possibility of mandatory machine work as the magnesium cases can distort when opened. If the oil bypass modification has not been performed, that and a later oil pump are a good idea.

If the heads need work I would go there next, make sure the valves are sealing properly. Finally, check to make sure the pistons are in spec and deglaze and re-ring. Repair all worn-out parts such as chains, ramps, etc., and make sure you have Carrera tensioners. That shouldn't leave you with much change from a $3,000 bill if you are doing the work yourself.

The trouble with starting with a 2,2T is that EVERYTHING must be changed. Crank to counterweighted 70.4 will require new rods. Case mods might include align bore, deck spigots, deck throughbolt holes, oil bypass, notch for oil pump and clean the oil passages while you are in there. Porting the heads is an expense over and above the standard rebuild of about $700. New camshafts are $700 or so. JE Pistons are about $1100 per set. Charles' excellent Nickies cylinders start around $2800.

None of this is intended to discourage you in the slightest, only to make you aware that building a high-compression hot S+ motor is about a $10,000 proposition these days.

[V12man]

If you leave it at 2.2, you will be able to keep the 66mm crank and your rods (provided they are in good condition) and if you are prepared to pay for them, you can bore the T cylinders out to 85mm and get some JE's as pistons with higher compression rates - there is a lot of debate about using the non counterweighted crank on a hot 2.2 - I don't believe you must swop to a counterweighted crank - although this might mean the rebuild cycle is shortened a bit - of course you can swap to the counterweighted one - up to you - I kept mine - so far so good. I suspect this is not only my opinion see Non Conterweight 66mm cranks

I did however have it balanced - definately reccomended if you do decide to keep it.

I am by no means an expert about this - but it's your call how you do it - what I do know is that it will not cost you what your budget is (no matter what the budget) - there is always something else as you go over the edge of the slide ) The more you study the more you will see what the possibilities are - I suggest you spend some time studying and thinking about where to with that motor - it's a fun pursuit in it's own right.

On page 59 on, in my copy of Bruce Anderson's 911 Performance handbook there is some discussion of the smaller 2.0 and 2.2 motors - especially what you can do with a factory budget and a short rebuild cycle.

[jasam]

Originally posted by john_cramer
What's wrong with the engine? Leakdown? Oil pressure? Leaks?

Seriously, for a budget of $3,000 not much can be done. If you split the case at all there's the possibility of mandatory machine work as the magnesium cases can distort when opened. If the oil bypass modification has not been performed, that and a later oil pump are a good idea.

Ohhh new ideas ! can you post more info about them?

My heads are sooo good now, they re-ringed the engine, lubricated all the Throttle body, did some changes to the Zenith and installed the Al. flywheel, I'm very happy with it... I think I'm pretty much stock with the BHP but I don't care, the car runs amazing and I enjoy very much driving.....


John as you usually do good ideas for us newbies

[Rough_Rider]

Thanks again for the responses.

Compression test show'd a big drop on #5 all others measured within 20% of each other, which is to spec. However they we're just within the 20% limit. plug 4, 5 & 6 all have significant oil fouling. I change plugs every few events & always see the same pattern, regardless of weber settings.
Lastly there's a lot of crankcase pressure blowing oil out the case. I catch upto 3/4 quart during an AX event. Chassis is capable of 1.5 peak lateral G's, sustained more like 1.3g.

I understand things can multiply quickly, so i'm specing out potential solutions. Factoring in my time to rebuild & deals i can do with friends. More hp would be nice but this will not be an S motor, their to peaky. At best it'll be an E spec.

As I see it i'm either doing:
Stock 2.2T rebuild
Stock 2.2E rebuild
Stock 2.4E upgrade
Custom 2.4E on 85mm re-bored cylinders.

In all scenarios i'll split the case to understand what foundation we're starting from.

[Long Nose]

Wow - I am in exactly the same place as you are, with a 2.2L 1970T, and I am planning a rebuild this winter. I love the idea of boring out the T cylinders to 85 mm and going with some high compression JE pistons. If I am correct, the T has the cast iron cylinders, so that would save purchasing the nickasil cylinders - big bucks. What would be the final displacement if you did that?

What about top end? I would spend most of my money on the top end for now, since if this is going to be your 1st rebuild, you might want to do it in stages. I would want the engine to rev. nicely, so I would go with the titaneum valve spring retainers, sodium filled valves, e cam, port the head. Put your money in the top end for now, that way if you do get more budget next time, you can spend more on the upgrading the crank, case, etc, next time when you have more experience, more money, etc.

When are you planning on doing the work?

[304065]

The thermal capacity of the cast-iron cylinders isn't that great. Remember that a 2,4 T produced 140 HP, so if you get above that level the cast-iron cylinders will be pretty overtaxed for the heat generated. Even if a set of Biral 84's could be located, boring them to 85 is about $50 per cylinder, and the JE's are running about $1100 per set. So that's 2/3 of a $3k budget right there.

The TI valvespring retainers are important for high-RPM race applications with 906 or better cams that make power from 6500-8000 RPM. A 911E cam stops making power and just makes noise above about 6500 RPM. Which isn't to say that you can't rev the engine to 6800 (I go beyond that in races all the time when I'm passing somebody) but only to say that it's not going to be worth it to make a big investment in porting the heads (2,2T heads have 29mm ports, I think Tyson measured them and they're not the 32 that is claimed) and exotic valve gear if you can't utilize it.

I would budget for an absolutely bone stock 911T rebuild and have some extra for any surprises that pop up when the case comes apart.

Extensive blowby and a big drop on #5 is probably a broken ring or two. Oil fouling suggests worn-out valve guides, a pretty common problem on smaller engines with high mileage. (Bruce Anderson talks about this extensively in his book).

[cnavarro]

If it were me and new nikasil cylinders were not in the budget, I would probably go with cast iron cylinders over the birals. What I would do is cryo the cylinders and coat the pistons, which isn't that much money on top of the cost of the JEs. I might even go as far as to maybe even coat the chambers and the faces of the valves with the same thermal barrier as applied to the piston. I've even nikasil'ed cast iron cylinders for certain projects where a cast iron cylinder had to be used, but the better wear properties and reduced friction made it worth the cost of putting the plating on there.

My problem with birals are that they still are limited by the iron liner, which to allow the heat to transfer better, has to be thin. Thin liner cast into aluminum fins tend to washboard and do other weird things under high temperatures. Additionally, factory biral cylinders tend to suffer from porosity, from the few birals I've tried to bore out.

[jasam]

John and everyone...

What would be the 10 things you would do to a Stock 2.2 T and you would like keep it (the engine). Which sides would you improve... The carrera chain ten.. new oil cooling, flywheel ????

[V12man]

Top 10 things

1 - Oil bypass mod
2 - New Cam chains
3 - Front oil cooler
4 - tensioner failure collars - if you don't do the carerra tensioners
5 - Case and head engineering
6 - New rod bolts
7 - Balance everything - crank, flywheel, pressure plate, rods, pistons
8 - Decent gasket set
9 - Make it pretty
10 - Clean, clean, clean etc

[daepp]

I have a 72 2.4T. When I bought it, it had been rebuilt with 2.2 "T" P & C's. Good power, however, the car smoked - something was wrong - never was sure what was wrong, but the best leakdown was 12% and the worst cyl. was 30%.

The engine was rebuilt with used 2.4 S cylinders and new JE 9.5:1 domed pistons. Also used S spec GE cams. Oil bypass md. The output is now approx 200HP and is very driveable (3rd gear is absolutely heaven!). The only down side was that since the HP was so much higher I had to eventually add a front oil cooler. Before the addition, the car would get up to 220 to 230 deg f on warm days. Now, I can't get it to 200 no matter how hard I try.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

David

[Long Nose]

Sounds like a sweet rebuild - did you do your own work? How much did that end up costing you? Did you keep the same crank shaft?

[daepp]

No - Henry Schmidt
Started at around 8-ish, but with a couple of changes, addl detailing, new front oil cooler with lines through the chassis, etc , I think it ended up in the 9's. I thought it was well worth the $$. Only remaining issue is the MFI.

The car runs awesome - but very rich. And while I know htis is supposed to be normal, I do worry a little about gas in the oil, and the wife and kids don't like the smell when we're at a stop light, etc. Of course, I just love the performance.

I am planning to put it on Loren Begg's dyno when I get the time as I was told by some that at higher revs the T MFI is probably getting a little lean.

[Long Nose]

How do you think that set-up would work with carbs?

[daepp]

I imagine it would be awesome! I had the MFI and just wanted to keep it original. Plus, you cannot beat the sound of an MFI engine under full throttle!!!!!