Yup, the wonderful 8:39 R&P from andial. :D

If you're interested in flow numbers for Carrera manifolds, I posted a thread about that here, in case you didn't see it:

http://www.turbo911.org/forum/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1126&KW=extrude

I took stock Carrera manifolds and sent them to Extrude Hone, and after a couple swipes they came back with 285 cfm +/-1 cfm runner to runner. It appears that your numbers are higher than mine, which may be because you flowed them at something higher than 25 in H20. I haven't looked back in your thread to investigate. Given how much was done to mine, I'd be surprised if there are any stock-configured Carrera manifolds that flow much better than mine do. The Extrude Honing process is pretty impressive. Of course, the only fair way to compare is to flow them on the same bench with the same operator.

About your change to an 8:39 R&P: If you're satisfied with using just 2nd though 4th, it's a good solution, I think. For a track car, it makes 4th a more usable gear. Problem is, the spacing between the gears, which is fairly distant, isn't improved, and it makes 1st almost worthless (especiallyin your car, where it will just be a tire smoking extravaganza). Also, the strength of the 8:39 is lower than the 9:38, though I'm not sure how significant that is. I chose to do something different here; I stayed with the bulletproof 9:38 R&P and regeared my stock 930 gearbox to the following ratios:

1st 19:33 (taller)
2nd 23:30 (stock)
3rd 26:26 (shorter)
4th 30:23 (shorter)

This makes for a close ratio gearbox, or an "active" gearbox, where all four gears are road racing gears (which was my goal). If I recall, it will rev out in 1st gear at 72 mph. That makes for some clutch slipping to get it going, but it's not objectionable to me (of course, if drag racing is your thing, it won't work). It revs out in 2nd at around 95, third at around 125, and fourth at 161 or so. This choice of gears isn't for everyone, but it should be right on for my purposes. It's essentially the same gearing as a 915 gearbox, but without 1st gear!

The cost of doing this is not trivial, but neither is an 8:39. I'd say the cost is equivalent. If you've got your box apart, and are doing your own work, that certainly helps. I got some used factory 962 gears (1st and 4th) for $650 each or so, and a new aftermarket 3rd gear for $750 or so, if I recall.

Just a little off key but any help would be great.
Thank you.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-technical-forum/221184-wastgate.html

Thanks for the link Rob. Just in case there might have been a leak with my flow apparatus on runner number 2 I am planning on testing it again but overall I am happy with my results even if that one runner really is a bit high.

I also know I will be happy with the new R&P since one of my only complaints about the 930 tranny was first gear being too tall for fast launches and my need to perform better on tight auto-x courses.

The 15% gearing reduction should be a perfect solution to those problems and having my top speed limited to 170 doesn't bother me one bit.

I am actually happy with the ratio splits between the gears since I am hoping that my mods will give me a pretty fat torque curve between 3500 and 6500 RPMs and the current gears will be perfect for keeping me in that range as long as I am moving faster than 20 mph or doing a 3K RPM launch.

I know it might not be the best solution for a track car but I am trying improve the car's low speed performance.

The car used to clean up its class at many a auto-xes but I had a few tough contenders to deal with. With lower gearing and more torque I will stomp my competition and hopefully end up with some respectable quarter mile times to boot.

Sounds good to me. It's all a matter of how you use your car and where you want to "give it up" when you're limited by only 4 gears. I think you'll find with your power, though, that autocrossing will be an exercise in self restraint...

LOL, it always was but now I can use some more of that restraint down around 25 mph.

BTW Rob, adjusting your flows for 28" would convert them to about 298 CFM.

I'm planning to make the R&P change on my 4 speed also. At this point it's the last item in my rebuild/EFI project.

A G50/50 would be the ultimate but there's too many mods and dollars involved with it.

I talked with the folks at Rennsport Systems about the R&P change and they recommended changing the gears instead. The cost would be about half the cost of G50 upgrade so I'm back to the R&P. So far the Andial is cheapest I've seen. The 930 with the 8:39 R&P closely matches the first 4 gears in the G50/50 which can't be all bad.

Yes, I looked at the numbers and $$$ for both paths and chose the R&P option hands down.

Relatively cheap and effective. I got mine for $1050.

That's why I wait til the last minute to make the final decision on any part of this project. Hopefully I'll come across a better deal on a part to jump on but if I don't hopefully I will have gained more knowledge from this site or another to make the best cost or performance decision.

Taking one's time has its advantages. I have saved thousands by not being in a hurry for what I need. Then again project creep allways gives me creative ways to spend my savings.

I've got my turbo and intercooler options picked out but will wait till the last minute to purchase them.

Good things come to those who wait.

Hey guys I have a G50 turbo and if my money tree were to sprout I would go longer with 1st and close up the rest. With a little slip I can start pretty easily in 2nd and 5th is nice for hwy economy runs. Which leave 2,3,4 for the majority of spirited fun.
My point is don't get to caught up in the 5 spd thing.

It amazing how a little engine rebuild and EFI project has gotten so out of control. With the engine it became a while I'm in there thing with new rods, pistons, and cams. Since the engine's out I figured I should replace all the fuel lines, the rear suspension bushings (Elephant), and new torsion bars. I'm into five figures and I still haven't bought a turbo, intercooler, ECU, or ignition.

I talked to Bell intercoolers and looked at a design they had but I didn't like it. Bell seems to be the cheapest and fastest way to go, but I'd like to have some flow diverters inside the end tanks and I'm not sure if they're willing to put them in. I may have to make my own with their core.

As you mention endtanks are important, but with well designed endtanks diverters become almost unnecessary.

For the sake of good flows and efficiencies I will be going with a side flow intercooler with the following endtank configuration.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116771536.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1116771547.jpg

Hmm I have seen that intercooler before:) Marco knows what he is doing in that area no doubt. I will post some pics of mine when it is done....Marco is building mine as well.

Eric

Marco wanted a bit too much for fabrication so I was planning on getting it fabbed by bell instead. ;)

Speaking of Bell, during a drive here in ATL yesterday, my manifold air temp sensor showed 22 - 23 C all day. This included a 1 degree rise under heavy boost use. For your info, the outside (ambient) temp was 75 degrees F - about 23 - 24 C. I have to say the more I drive the car with the Bell IC, the more I like it. By taking the front to back design and the big core (4"), I have very little pressure drop and temps are just right. It would be interesting to know what the pressure drop is comparing side to side and front to back, then compare temp drops. I like Marco, but I really like the Bell.

Don how much was your cooler from Bell if you dont mind me asking

A little over $1100 delivered...

there pricing sure is nice. What are the end tanks made from?

Could someone please post contact info for Bell?

Thanks

www.bellintercoolers.com

Talk to Gerhard

Thanks Don.

Aluminum

Let me be clear on the price. I sent Gerhard (Bell) the drawing. We talked about the pro's and con's. All I wanted was an IC with end tanks and two nipples (up from turbo, and out to TB with a 90 degree tight radius). I knew that since this was going to be a custom IC, I would have to place it on the engine and make the mounting points. Therefore, this was a fairly simple construction for Bell. A big portion of the total time spent was fabricating the mounts (which I did).

I would bet Marco would do the same, but at the time I needed the IC, he was too busy to do just the basics.

Gerhard is the man. No doubt. He walked me through the design of my intercooler and I should've gotten him to build my tanks like Don did. Instead I just bought the core.

But he is great to talk to. Their customer service is awesome.

Brian

Well, I just got done retesting the intake and it does appear I had a small leak on the flow bench when I switched from one half of the manifold to the other.

I am now getting identical readings between runner #2 and #5. For that reason I can now say that all my port whittling is officially complete.

This week I hope to have the time to press in my new valve guides and cut my valve seats.

After that, once I shell out another $1K for some head studs and flame rings the engine should be ready for assembly.

Then another $2500 for the turbo, intercooler, fuel injectors, megasquirt and some miscellaneous items should give me what I need to put it back in the car.

I may also have to spend another $350 for a shift ring and a gear dog for the tranny but I will cross that bridge once the engine is nearly complete.

MEGASQUIRT why did you cheep out on the electronics? Why not tec3 or something better? I understand that systems that only use a map sensor sometimes have problems with low vacuum that results from high overlap cams.

MSII. 12X12 fuel and spark maps will do me just fine.

Tec3 uses "only" MAP-sensor just like "lowly" MSII. Is Rolex showing better time than Swatch? Tec3 has lot's of features but most of them aren't really needed.

Plus I like the fact that MS is open source and open architecture. Thats a big selling point to an engineer and programmer like myself.

It will all tie in rather nicely with a flat panel instrumentation project I am working on for the 930 so I can add a 'glass cockpit' to complement my nice big VDO gauges.

Here is a screen shot of one of my virtual gauges. All I have left to work on is the code required to cluster several together and to sample the appropriate data via the serial ports.

Since I am planning on feeding the sound card into the stereo's aux channel for use as an MP3 player I have also set up acoustic warnings for when yellow and red lines are exceeded.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1117579645.jpg

You mean Motec not Rolex, the tec 3 is a swatch, MSII is a Heathkit (pronounced griefkit) without the good instruction books. I have an MSEE and 35 years experience and I would predict that even someone like me will have difficulties that in the end would make it cheeper to just buy something that is known to work. In other words I can put in the same ammount of time and effort doing what I get paid for and buy 3 tec 3's or buy a MSII and have a wonderful time reinventing some one elses wheel.

I believe there are thousands of MS users out there who don't even have an EE who would disagree with your opinion.

We AEs are probably better trained than you EEs anways. ;)

I have reviewed the MS and MSII docs and schematics and it all looks well designed and straighforward.

My opinion is based on my actual EXPERIENCE, not any analysis as stuff like this ALWAYS look good on paper and in the propaganda.

My post is also tempered by feedback I have received from several suppliers of like hardware and what their customers have told them.

By the way I really do support people like the ones producing MSII, I admire their courage and success in a very challenging endevor. They are on their way in making a very revolutionary product that they will eventually be selling as a complete unit, probably making millions doing so. But nothings free, so consequently anyone trying so save a buck will probably be doing so at the expense fo their time. But if their time is worth nothing, then its a good investment, otherwise for someone like me its a bad financial decision. But if its your hobby thats another story. By the way once someone starts working fulltime at something say electronics or auto or anything, its no longer a hobby, its work. It might still be fun, but its fun work as opposed to a fun hobby. The basic problem is that life is to short, there is to little time in the day to do everything you want to do, so you make choices, work 10 minutes and drive 30 minutes or work 40 minutes and loose the time to drive.

TO summerize this long line of bs what I do now is buy the best, most suitable product on the market, and then use my talent to modify it to work better, not to reinvent what it already does. OR even worse, in the case of something like the MSII wasting a lot of time making it do what it should do to begin with.

Motec, Tec, SDS, MSII...they are all speed/density systems that use MAP. They all open and close injectors and fire plugs according to pre-programmed tables. Some of them have fancy extra features and nice interfaces but in reality you mostly use forementioned two things. That's all.

If you have MSEE, I'm pretty sure you won't have problems with assembling MSII at all. At least as long as you have basic knowledge of digital circuitry and programming.

Which brand(s) of aftermarket EFI systems have you installed and what were your expiriences?

Hey 350HP930:

What did you develop your gauges with? Which language? .Net?

If so, care to share any of the code? I want to write a program to loop through my TEC3 logged data in real time and output the data to a screen that I can use to view various gauges showing temp, tach, other sensor inputs, etc.

ALSO, I just finished re-assembling and installing my 930 engine after my missed-shift. We started the re-assembly on Tuesday the 17th of May, and I was driving the car on Monday May 30th. 13 days!!!! All done by me and my friend Chad after work and on the weekend of May 21-22.

Brian

Hey Brian,

Its just written in visual basic. The code is still pretty rough and primative since I only have a few hours into it but I am happy to share.

Just PM me your e-mail address and I will send you the project files.

OMG - you are tooooooo much!! ;)

Now I can't wait till your done...I

LOL, I already have a new 14" flat panel LCD I picked up just for this purpose. I need to build a bracket in order to mount it just to the upper right of the stereo.

Maybe someone needs to get PhD.;)

350HP930:

I tried PM'ing you but your box was full.
briankeithsmith@ctc.net - send it to me ! Thanks

Brian