Obie-Juan,
Chill out! It's called a hobby! Let us enjoy the fruits of our labor because we did it and did it well! We took the road less traveled because we chose to.

Mmmmkaaay...you installed two Electromotive systems and several unreliable others you don't remember? :rolleyes:

It would be very interesting to hear which "others" you installed and what problems you run into.

And yes please, do get technical. I developed analog electronics for living a while ago so I hope I should be able to understand what you talk about...

Which software did you use, how did you map your Electromotive systems, what happened with "unreliable" ones...I'm eager to know.

Even If I dig out the bloddy details you won't be satisfied, another thing I have learned along the way, so I am officially "forgetting it", say what you will. Those who have been there and done that understand. Those that haven't may, someday. Electromotive and other advanced systems have easy to use "mapping" software. No need to learn C, C++, basic, Unix, fortran, cobol or some real computer language. The less than desirable ones leave you to machine code your way thu specific processors, using no known "real" programming tools. Hit and miss , fill in the matrix code. Then theres the mismatched parts problem, with drivers, driving parts that they cannot drive, at least and live long,in other words interface hell. Then theres the working environment, near mil spec, -55C to +125C or more, humidity, vibration, sand and dust, and on and on. Most of these so called systems cannot work outside the lab. And reliability, whats that?? FEMA whats that?? All real considerations for any real automotive app. Say it dosen't apply? Say again after you are stranded by your auto electronics. The unreliable ones are in the JUNK pile. Why have I fogot them? No need to remember them.

Whew! Are you dating yourself!
I'm an automotive embedded software development engineer and I believe the term you're looking for is "extreme temp" processors. I have looked at a lot of literature on the EFI modules coming out and none of them require any programming knowledge. The parts have been out there for years for the automotive environment and the costs have dropped accordingly. I think if you also read some of the backgrounds on the designers of these systems, you'll find they are Automotive engineers with extensive background experience on the systems they've designed.

Jack, you are embarrassing yourself. It's obvious that you have no clue. Check your calender, it's 2005 not 1985.

Exactly how am I dating myself?? Mentioning ancient systems of programming, but also mentioning newer ones, ie "easy to use" mapping software, ie no brains required software for auto buffs, or in my opinion user friendly software for non geeks to get what you want without learning greek. 1985 is pushing it back a couple of years, C is good for at least 1988. And the current systems still using machine code date back to what?? 1972?? Or for non micros, late 1940's.

Your ignorance on the subject is beyond comprehension. Go back to your carbs and points ignition and leave the software to people who know what they're talking about.

Knock this crap off!:mad:

Don't ruin one of the better threads on this board with this tirade.

Amen.

Bump.
Hey 350hp930, any news or updates?
Hows the job going?

man this thread is old I hope rebuilding my 930 doesnt take this long

Me too. The crap is about "ignorance on the subject is beyond comprehension" Like explain it to me as I am very very dumb.
I have grown up with the earliest IBM machines and know how to program the latest micros, exactly where am I getting off this bandwagon??? Give me a fkin break.

lol, I really need to update this thread. Sorry for laying low for so long guys, but to sum it up I have been focussing on a new career and women for the past few months.

Some of you guys can know how distracting that can be, but trust me, I have not given up on my ongoing project, just pushed it to the back burner for the meantime, that's all.

Snowman, cool it. This stuff is old.

Back on track, eh (hopefully)? I'd be interested to read more too.

ianc

mmmm.....women......got any pics of her barrels?!!

Sorry guys, I just get irritated when people are just discovering what the Military world and I have been doing for over 30 years, on a routine basis. Extended range processors? not if you have been in the "real" world its ALWAYS been -55C to +125C OPERATING. Many are discovering the "real" world as automotive apps drive the demand for cheap civilian electronics. Reliability is also being "rediscovered" here along with the routine derating requirements, and stress analysis, and rel calculations that go with it. The latest buzz words if extended range , blah blah are for the people who have not had to live with reality for a very long time, for the Mil spec crowd its whats required by mother nature and hasn't changed for a very long time.

You were good right up to here.

Now can we get on with the show please? ;)

ianc

what engine management you EFI guys using out there?

Elecromotive TEC3r with their XDI ignition

hope to use SDS with ign control www.sdsefi.com

for flat sixes with twin spark its the EM4-6F model.

whats the word 350HP930? any progress? if not, how are the ladies treatin' ya? you ought to have gone to Carnval in Rio, you'd have gotten all the pelt you needed and then been able to focus on your rebuild again:)

yeah Jack, whats been going on, lots of loving (q the barry white track) or lots of wrenching (on your engine)

Hey guys!
havn't posted yet on this thread....however i did just enjoy a great read.... was kinda hoping to end about 4-6 pages form now with a dyno chart....lol....

I have to agree with both snowman and 350hp, i agree 100% with snowman that the tec3 system is MUCH better, excellance did an atriclie that said as much, however, in 350hp case, where he is doing the whole project himself, and his time at the moment isn;t worth a massive amount ( for example i would do it 350hp's way, whereas my dad would do it snowman's....and we are both capable of either....though his programming is Defitnly out of date....i just finsihed my last C++ and java courses)

so i don;t see the huge arguement, as as for those unbelievers snowman, i believe this was handled in a very poor mannor, expecially the issue of a challange, what would your opinon have changed if he had put it out there? i'm willing to bet nothing.

as for the arguement of carbs....i love them, and i'm an EE student. On the UVic formula SAE team (little race car), the first year i joined the team our car was a carbed 750cc gsx engine, we did a bunch of work, and it took me and other student about 2 weekend to get the carbs to produce and wickedly smooth powerband between 5000-13000 rpm...

the next year we had a fancy new ignition/injection system, though i was not heavily involved, (as my studies didn't allow, not out of want or ability), the setup took a very very long time to get working properly, and this was because all of the programming and sensors setup was done in house, in the end I called into yamaha ( iknow gsx is not a yamaha engine) canada as to a good basepoint setup, therefor allowing us to adjust to what we believe would work... this proved to be very little help as it was actually a sensor error that was making all of our readings useless....


but wow....i get off topic fast..... i guess i'm saying that i dislike it when threads get negative, i prefer to give people the benifit of doubt....what would someone gaiun from lying on an internet forum?


anyways.... 350hp lets see some progress...or some barrels as worded elsewhere....i'm 19 a fueled by testerone, gimmie cars or girls or i'll go elsewhere.

flippin eck!

TTT

Here I am quoting myself. Just what the heck are any of you talking about when you say I am out of date??? Was it the C++? or was it the languages you probably don't even know about, like Fortran?? Both are irrelavant in this as a lot of these so called systems use a "user friendly" made up language that are nothing but "user friendly". You think I am out of date because I mention languages you have never heard of? Yet ignore the more current ones I mentioned?

Like I said give me a fkin break.

It is my PROFESSIONAL opinion, and I AM a PROFESSIONAL, that it is better to buy a well developed system like the Motec or Tec 3 systems. It is less expensive if your time is worth squat, it will work better, and you will not have to reinvent the wheel, and not everyone is good at inventing. Again this is only based on more than 35 years experience and being a cheep skate myself, ie a do it yourselfer, even if it cost a little more. In this case it will cost you a whole lot more.

And who in the commercial world has ever done a FEMA analysis? I will give you a clue it means Failure Effects and Modes Analysis. If you have never done one, you shouldn't be doing automotive electronics. Or even a simple worst case stress analysis? How about proper de-ratings, ie so the thing will work for 15 or 20 years like you would expect it to. I would be willing to bet a years salary, oh wait I'm retired, but anyway that none of the aftermarket stuff has had such analysis done to them. I would also bet that the mfgs HAVE done such analysis, and their systems are infinitely more reliable than the aftermarket ones. Its my guess, and its an all out guess that only the best of the aftermarket systems, like Tec 3 or Motec MAY have done this, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Sort of like using Microsoft Windows to drive your car, its ok if it Crashes, every day. Bill Gates is a very rich guy, who is to say he is wrong??? I happen to admire him, even if he IS wrong.

bump

Thanks snowman, now I remember why you are on the ignore list

Please keep me on it.

As much as i'm sure that you all know what your talking about and that everyones different oppinions are correct. This is 350HP's thread about HIS car and about how HE is going modify it.
If you want to argue about who can piss further up a wall or whos methods for getting it up there is best then please go and make a new thread about that.
It would be such a shame to ruin this highly entertaining and informative thread with un-related arguments.
I'm not taking sides or saying who is right. i just come here to hear from 350HP..

so whats been happening with the project Jack?

I prefer aftermarket actually for that very reason. Manufacterers will update there stuff and sell them to you in there next model, otherwise your ***** out of luck with what you got in your present model. Of course you could go aftermarket if the stock system fails right ;). Plus aftermarket systems are constantly being updated by the people who use them, such as the megasquirt system. When was the last time you saw the manufacterers offering open source code for the base programming in there engine management systems?

The competative nature of the automotive market prevents them from offering an open source system at this time. Unfortunate, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

But for the hotrodder its aftermaket, cause its the only way. But please spare me on the megasquirt POS. Its no less than 30 years behind the times and requires bokoo hours to hope to make an obsolete system work. I have built and tested a MS system. Its for an 18 year old guy with zero bucks to do anything constructive. In that case its a great system, but otherwise, forget it.

22 actually. And i've compared the processing power of the ms2 with some others, and other than the big $ giants (motec) it had faster processing power. So i don't see why it's a POS. Maybe you can cite some specific reasons as to why it's a POS instead of touting about being a proffessional and trying this and that without backing it up.

The first and largest problem is the documentation, or lack of. The only way I could make sense of it was to ignore it and look at the actual circuitry and figure it out for myself. This fact alone leaves most people in a heap of trouble. Then there’s the endless list of "options” It’s so endless that it’s useless, which option to use with what?? Not all that easy to decipher, sort of like "why didn't you just design it yourself to begin with?! Just making a suitable wiring harness is a daunting task, especially if you are not familiar with what’s needed to make one that will endure and not become the source of endless trouble. One huge problem with the MS system is that there is no coherent theory of operation presented, i.e. a short essay on how this particular system should operate, what each signal does, in detail and so forth. a lot of its there, but it ISN'T coherent. And exactly which MS system are we talking about? There are at least a dozen variations talked about, different ignition systems, different interfaces to different ignitions, the mixing of MS 1, MS 2, MS 3 builds and what does and does not work with them.

There is no mention of de-rating when the system was designed, i.e. guides as to how much to de-rate things, what if any de=rating was followed during the design. The components used are not high quality, nor compatible with an automotive environment, The entire thing as built needs to be put in a sealed container or conformal coated. I doubt the thing can withstand any serious vibration that might be encountered in an automotive environment. This doubt is based on my experience designing and actually testing hundreds of electronic devices for aircraft, missile, and even automotive type environments. I could make a wager that 20 percent of the components will fail or fall off the board during a 20 minute random vibration run, of say 0.04 g squared per Hz. This is an environment that you might see on a firewall under some conditions or in a non optimum location on a race car or pickup truck.

The sensors with MS is "Pick a sensor" and then try to figure out if MS will work with the ones you picked and if so which options to use to make them actually work.

Then with all these random variations, you still have to make your system work properly, which it may or may not. Since there is little commonality with all these variables its much much more difficult to troubleshoot problems. Combined with the lack of theory of operation, its like a real challenge. Don't believe me, ask someone who has successfully completed one and ask for an honest estimate of the hours put in to make it work. If the guys an automotive engineer, then multiply the hours by 5 or 10 x for the novice.

Pick up the lit on a Bosch Motronic version 1 and compare it to MS, Then find lit on say a 1990 Caddy with a Northstar engine, a modern design. Read up on the operation of the ignition and power train control systems, and then compare to MS. MS it like comparing a 1960s cap discharge system to a 1990 Porsche system. No comparison at all.

Best argument of all, if the MS system were any good the big buck guys would be using them instead of Motec. They might have big bucks, but beleive me they are still cheep tightwads when it comes to spending money on something that dosen't do anything in return for it.

Well from messing with tuning softwares for the tec, motec, and MS, they all are generally the same, just MS seems TO ME to have more freedom of choice. The tec to me is junk for the money, it's very comparable to the MS, and about 6 times the cost. The motec is badda$$, mainly because it has a tidal wave of features. Actually i do have a book on bosch fuel injection systems, and i've opened a few bosch ECUs up and to me it doesn't seem like there is anything special in them, but i've never opened one that was in the obd2 era so i imagine they are leagues more complicated now. But they are all nothing more than a heap of electrical components with one or two main IC's for doing calculations. They are actually on the same level of complication as the electrical circuits i used to do in highschool. And the last time i checked all the sensor are standard GM sensors, unless you want to run something else, then you must modify. Unlike electromotive at least you have that option, plus eletromotive refuses to give part numbers from gm for there sensors or other parts, so you cannot source them yourselves.
What's nice about the other systems is that if they break intially or are already broken, they'll be fixed without any sweat from your side of things. With a MS, you need to fix it yourself or pay someone else to figure it out.

pinch harder, pee higher

I never even got to the software part. What good is software if the hardware dosen't work???

Seems to me like there are plenty of people who got it to work. www.msefi.com

LOL!

Don't leave out further!