3.0 Engine Advice

[911gilley]

I think this is the right forum to ask this question:
I have been looking for some time now for an engine for my '83 SC coupe project car. I have found several engines, all of which have turned out to have major shortcomings/issues.
I just found a 1983 3.0 cabrio engine that seems may be closer to a "minor issues" engine. Seller says he has no idea what mileage is on it but it is currently transplanted and running in an '81 coupe....says I could drive/hear it run.
He says leakdown is 5 to 10% (cold). Does not have Carerra tensioner update (re no oil lines to covers) but has turbo valve covers. Has new one piece oil return tubes, new cam housing gaskets. Seller says "looks like it had recent rebuild/refresh." It seems to be a turbo cased '83 by looks of case drain plug location. I may go look at it tomorrow (several hour drive each way) but would like to see what you guys think before doing so. I have several pictures which I can post if necessary.

Thanx,

[Porsche_monkey]

1. How much is he asking?
2. What are you prepared/planning to do to it prior to installation?
3. How much do you drive and how long do you expect it to last?
4. Can you contact his wrench?

[911gilley]

1. $4K
2. I feel comfortable doing minor top end work if needed but would rather be able to install into car "as is"
3. I own 2 pcars and this one will be a streetable DE/track car. If I can get 20 to 30K miles out of it I would be happy.
4. He is a used parts operation, this car is one he recently acquired. He does know the history of it, as he sold the engine to the original owner as a transplant engine 5 years ago...don't know if I can find out who the wrench is.

[Porsche_monkey]

I think the price and your expectations are in line.

[911gilley]

Thanks for your 2 pennies worth PBH.
Also, does anyone know whether there are any differences between a cabriolet 3.0 and coupe 3.0? I heard that the engine mounting bracket is different in some way.

[Rot 911]

Price sounds ok with those numbers cold although I would like to know both the compression and leakdown with the engine warm. Like you pointed out I think you will need a different engine mounting bar.

[911gilley]

Wouldn't cold leakdown numbers be a better indicator of health than warm? After engine warms up, wouldn't expansion create a tighter seal on all gasketed/joined areas leading to better (lower %) results?

[Porsche_monkey]

I believe low cold numbers are not abnormal. Anyone else care to comment?

[William Miller]

The rear engine mount bar on a cabrio has a dampner on it which allows it to have a controled twist. Most are worn out by now. I'm looking for a solid one. You should especially for racing. 81 USA = K-lambda CIS with computer. Get him to include the working one If you don't have it in your car or if your cars is a Euro. Euro 83 had no computer (Was K-basic.)
Mine is a late 83 Euro 930/10 k-basic. They also used the Carrera case because as I herd they ran our of the SC cases (Can someone confirm this.) There is no sump plate and the drain is in the case itself.
Will he let someone you know do the leak downs or will he do them while you watch? That would give you better confidence.
If you buy it have someone go over it and replace simple things before you put it in.

What's with the rest of the car? I need some body work. Post some pics when you get back! Where is it located?

[911gilley]

William,
Per your "81 USA = K-lambda...." The engine is from an '83, not '81. The car it is currently in is an '81. Does the '83 engine have the same requirements? I have the original Jetronic box from my '83 but not the CD box....is there a specific CD unit for this engine?
I will bring a compression tester and will ask him to do a leakdown in front of me....good idea.
The rest of the car is an '81 coupe. Let me know what you are looking for and I will get some specific pics for you.

[aigel]

The 'turbo' valve covers were standard on the SC. I think William says 81 and up (81-83) are O2 sensor cars and all need the brain. A much superior setup than the air pump deal on the earlier SC.

Cheers, George

[911gilley]

Thanks to all who replied so far.
Another question, as I am about to leave to look at engine:
There has been no Carerra update to chain tensioners.....should the price I pay include a negotiation for this item (he wants $4K)?

[North Coast Cab]

Chain tensioner upgrade is a necessity and part alone will be $450, I'd say $150-200 to install. The engine mount bracket is an easy change and can be found used for $50. Price sounds good. My only concern is the "looks like it had a rebuild/refresh." That could be anything from a top end job to a cleaning. I wouldn't bank on much. Good luck.

John

[aigel]

If you are on a budget and still want to be safe, you can check your non oil fed tensioners every 40k miles and installt the $29.99 anti-collapse collars.

The main reason for chain tensioner failures is the narrow idler arm setup that was changed to the wide setup in 1980, IIRC. The oil fed tensioners were only the icing on the cake to get things perfect. And those fail too, just not as likely. To keep the oil fed jobs from collapsing, racers install travel limiting shims (to keep the tensioner shaft from bottoming out) in the body of the tensioner that have the same effect than the earlier 'crash collar'.

George

[911gilley]

Well, I just returned from a 12 hour expedition and I caved....I bought the engine.
I did a compression test on it and leakdown as well. Engine was in car and started pretty easily with no visible smoke. I ran it for approx 20 minutes and it idled very roughly...only to look down and see distrubutor moving...his mechanic did not tighten down nuts on dist housing when they were getting it to start yesterday.
Numbers on engine looked like this:
Cylinder# Compression Leakdown
1. 164 7
2. 169 9
3. 170 10
4. 175 11
5. 174 19
6. 165 9

There was what seemed to be a noisy valve on the right side of engine as it ran.....I'm hoping this is simply a mis-adjusted valve and/or timing issue.
There was no visible oil leakage from anywhere and engine looked fairly clean all around. It looks like someone cracked (opened) the case as I could see liquid gasket material (whitish) that looked somewhat new. Same with the timing chain housings and other engine seal areas.....only gasket material here is red in color. I'm hoping that whatever work was done on this thing was done satisfactorily. But as John's Workshop once stated, "there all a pig in a poke until you have it spread out in front of you"
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, engine does not have Carerra tensioner update.....but after asking for a deducton off the price ($4K), seller threw in a new Carerra tensioner kit (with the exception of new gaskets and the covers, which will be used and he will be shipping to me when he pulls them). He also gave me fuel accumulator, filter and fittings, charcoal filter, cruise control servo, brainbox and harness but would not budge on also throwing in the Bosch CD unit, which I had to purchase seperately (but I think I got a good deal on it). He did give me a 90-day "no knock" warranty on the engine, so I have to get moving on whatever upgrades I need to do and get it in the car and running for a while prior to the expiration of this.
A few things I think I need to do to it immediately and could use some advice:
1. Tensioner update.....I have both of Wayne's books and he makes it look simple in "101 Projects..." Is it really this simple and should I try it myself (I know the catastrophic nature of an incorrect procedure)?
2. Valve job....What do you guys think of a newbie attempting this?
3. Clutch bearing seems like it has a lot of play (he left flywheel and clutch on it for me). This doesn't look terribly difficult either...right or wrong?

These are the immediate items that I can see need to be addressed. I would love to hear other suggestions as I'm sure there are more things that might not be a bad idea to do before mounting engine in car.

(I am very mechanically inclined but certainly don't claim to be a Porsche engine expert at this juncture in time).

I am new to Pelican here and from my recent threads and the excellent feedback and knowledge I've picked up, I seriously feel like you are a bunch of great guys out there...It makes me feel a lot more confident taking on some of the chores involved in restoring a car, knowing that I have that support here.

I welcome any suggestions for my new project engine (I only have 90 days to fixen' and installin' it and makin' surein' itin' runnin' okayin').

Thanks guys.

PS. William, I got some pics of body parts from the car my engine came from (real nice shape fenders, hood and doors), as well as some other fenders.....I can hook you up; let me know if you want to see them.

[aigel]

Ed:

I'd slap the engine in your car pronto to get as much miles on it as possible to make sure your warranty is worth something. With those compression numbers, adjust the valves and if things look good under the vavlecovers, go! I belive if anything major is wrong with the engine, it will show within 1k miles.

The chain tensioners are easy to upgrade, you just need to make sure the chain doesn't jump while there is no tensioner tensioning it. A wire, clamp or ziptie will ensure it stays under tension. Also, checking the cam timing after install will be cheap insurance and good practise anyway since you have an unknown engnine on a stand that is nicely accessble!

Congrats on the purchase. Sounds like you have a very good chance to have a recently redone engine that will give you many troublefree miles.

G

[William Miller]

ED, At this point, I agree with aigel. The chain tensioner update is easy at this point. If your careful you won't get into retiming the cams but it would be good to check them and re-time if out of spec. It's a lot easier if out of the car. I'd check out the wear on the clutch disk and maybe replace it with the bearing. There is also a seal on the transmission that would be good to change. Don't forget the o-ring on the guide tube if you order this seal. Bently's book shows a makeshift tool to remove the guide tube from the trans. If you don't have the book let me know.

How long was the engine sitting?
A compression test and a leakdown test are different. I would do the leakdown before you do anything else. This is done with the engine cold and not running. If there are any major problems it should show up with the leakdown and help you diagnose the problem.
If there is a major problem you could return the engine without wasting any more of your time or negotiate a better deal. (It's probably ok but you said you didn't see it sunning smoothly.)

If the engine hasn't been run for a while It could just be bad gas causing the problems. These often will go away after running clean gas thru it with injector cleaner.

Your question: 81-83 K-lambda are the same in USA. My point was that the ROW cars have no brain.
There are a lot of options for ignition besides the original CD box. There are just as many opinions as which ones are the best. My car has the permatune unit because it was there when I bought the car. It's working fine. Aftermarket are a lot less expensive than the original.

I am intrested in the body parts so post or e-mail the pictures to me.
Where is this car. I'm in Maryland, just west of D.C. I'd just go look but it's probably several hours from here.
Thanks and good luck!

[911gilley]

William,
What's the best clutch to put in?
Is there anything to watch out for/caveats when doing the tensioner update?
What is involved in retiming the cams and how necessary is this?
Which seal on the transmission are you talking about? I do have the SC Bentley book so maybe you can refer to a page number.

Owner says engine was sitting for 5 years. I did do both a compression and leakdown test (see results in post above) on warm engine.

I did buy a used CD unit with car (Bosch original).

Car is in Connecticut. Check your mail for some pictures. (You're in MD, probably neighbors with my brother in Chevy Chase).

[911gilley]

William,
Please send me your email address, it's not on your profile.
-Ed

[snowman]

Numbers all look very good. I would buy it and run it as is, for the warrenty period. If it survives that upgrade it. The only problems in upgrading first is you cloud any warrenty issues if you work on it.