frozen 3.0

[Shuie]

I actually found a 3.0 core locally. The engine is seized. The guy didnt know the engine type number when I asked. Im thinking of going to take a look at it.

My questions:
-As long as there are not any extra holes blown through the case, what are the chances it is rebuildable?
-Since it wont turn over by hand, is there anything else I can inspect to give me a better idea of rebuild potential?
-What is a reasonable price for a seized 3.0 core?
-Where do I look for the engine type number? It should be 930/06 if it is from a SC, right?
-are there any other engine type numbers like 930/02 that can use a 2.7 crank?

TIA.

[aigel]

The engine number is stamped on the left crankcase half, below the fan housing on a lip that comes up quite a bit to hold the fan housing.

From the SC bentley:

Engine Numbers:
1978-1979 (930/04) (49 states)... 6280001, 6290001-on
1978-1979 (930/06) (california)... 6580001, 6590001-on
1980 (930/7).............................................. 6400001-on
1981 (930/16)............................................ 6410001-on
1982 (930/16)............................................ 64C0001-on
1983 (930/16)............................................ 64D0001-on

I would not buy a seized engine unless it is REALLY cheap. There is much that can go wrong without leaving a sign on the outside. Cheap=500 bucks. A grand is too much already, unless there is a full useable fresh fuel system etc. with it and other peripherals that may be sold for what you paid for the entire engine. If something came apart on the bottom end, you may have a bad case, a bad crank, at least one bad cylinder and only few good heads... The least you need to do is open the sump plate and see what's in there. If it looks like this, pass ...



Even if there is any much smaller bits, it is bad news. Pieces of bearing etc. are not tolerable since they will indicate problems with the bottom end and you align honing the case and buying a new crank and rods, possibly.

Of course, an engine can seize from valvetrain failure too, which may be much less problematic. So, the valve covers would be the next thing to pull and the chain covers. Will the seller let you dig that far in. Still, if the pistons met the valves, you may be buying pistons and other bits ...

The engine to go for IMHO is a later one with the higher compression, O2 sensor instead of air pump and the better (wider idler sprocket base). I am positive 81 up, maybe 80 is okay too.

And again, the engine to go for in my eyes is one that turns over easily and does not make any weird noises...

Good Luck, George

[Rot 911]

George gave you some good advice. Core value on that engine is around $500

[Wayne 962]

Yikes, is that a piston pin in the bottom of the engine there? Can you send me a larger size pic of that for my archives (wayne@pelicanparts.com).

$500 and you can't go wrong. $1000 is a bit more riskier, but you still probably won't get hurt if the thing is junk (you could part it out and sell the useful parts on eBay, etc...). Both numbers would include the CIS too...

-Wayne

[Shuie]

Thanks a lot guys! I appreciate the help and the advice. Im still a newbie at this stuff.

Is the risk that the entire case could be trash? Do the cases often fail, or just the crank/bearings? When the guy told me it was seized, I automatically assumed the crank was cashed but that the case might still be good.

An SC crank is not cheap, I know. Best case scenario is that the crank needs to be turned. What is the worst case scenario? A new crank? A whole new case? When an SC engine seizes, will the bearing journals likely be hammered out of shape?

Sorry for the questions, just trying to understand the risk.

[Doug Zielke]

Hi George....that's an award winning shot you've got there.
Please post (or e-mail) me a larger image for the MM files.
Much appreciated!

[aigel]

I am afraid I can't send or post a bigger pic since this is someone's elses mishap and I don't want to give it out without asking him directly for permission. I will have a chance to ask over the course of this spring. Cheers, George

[aigel]

If something bad happens to the bottom end, the crank can be toast beyond repair and the case may need at least align boring and may need more repair too. I strongly advise to buy an engine that turns freely, unless it is real cheap and you have more $ to buy whatever else you need.

[Dleong]

That picture is my engine, and it turned over very nicely, with no noise, and had no external signs of damage. I would guess it would've looked like a pretty good engine if you didn't look inside or do a compression test.

[john walker's workshop]

pull the intake and look down the ports. pull the sump plate and hopefully it doesn't look like that one. a dropped valve can stop it from turning and it can be a reasonably cheap fix (sometimes). a crank seized in the mains can kill both crank and case, so that one should be cheaper.
a crank and case are each worth at least $1K.

[aigel]

Dave:

Small world! Now that the owner of that shot has found us, you can answer Wayne's call for large prints directly.

Unbelievable that you could turn it. Did it make any weird noises? Do you care to share more pictures? And what's the plan for the engine? I suppose you are going to that 3.2 now?

Cheers, George

[Dleong]

I didn't take that many pics. Here is a larger pic, plus 2 more:

http://www.dleong.org/scratch\sump.jpg
http://www.dleong.org/scratch\sprinkles.jpg
http://www.dleong.org/scratch\cylinder.jpg

It was a pretty benign blow, and I did not expect the final result. Neither did most people who examined it in the field. Hardly any noise. no smoke. Running 5,000RPM at the time.

The theory is that a cylinder was running lean, and destroyed a piston, but no one really knows.

The schrapnel went into the intakes via the PCV, and that is why you see metal sprinkles in the other cylinders.

I am looking or a replacement 3.0, since I plan to run the PRC Toyo Cup Series, and I need to stay legal. Otherwise, I would install a 3.6.

Anyone have a 3.0 engine for me?

[emcon5]

Wow.

Fixed the links

http://www.dleong.org/scratch/sump.jpg
http://www.dleong.org/scratch/sprinkles.jpg
http://www.dleong.org/scratch/cylinder.jpg

Tom

[aigel]

Dave:

I have no leads to a 3.0. Of course you probably know that Parts Heaven will sell you one with a 90 day warranty for about $5500. My coworker checked with them recently and that was the quote IIRC.

Buying an ugly duckling SC for the engine may be an option and then sell the roller or part it out? Of course if the car is beat, the drivetrain usually isn't any better.

I'll keep you in mind, in case I hear something, or smack my car up on mines road. Problem is they go hit things a$$ end first most the time.

Cheers, George

[Wayne 962]

That sump pic says it all. Thanks for posting the larger pic - I have saved it for my archives...

I would predict that *nothing* except probably the fan & housing were salvageable from that engine?

-Wayne

[Dleong]

That is a good question. I haven't taken the case apart to make that determination. What do you think? I am pretty sure I have 5 good pistons, and Cyl. 5 good rods, and 5 good heads. Is 5 the same as zero? Some people are encouraging me to try to rebuild the engine.

Should I have vented the crankcase differently to avoid spreading all of that shrapnel? This was a track only car.

What makes a piston come apart at 5K RPMs?

[aigel]

On a normally aspirated engine, I don't think it is likely that the piston will explode from running lean. I am not saying it is impossible, but likely it ain't.

What's up with the head on the 'bad' cylinder? Any valves missing? May the piston have hit a valve first? Any damage to the other heads / valvetrain indicating jumping time etc.?

I am fairly new to the flat six, but I would be scared to use the case and crank again, ditto on the rods. Pistons, cylinders and heads can be checked easier. The shrapnell didn't scar the walls? 6 is a better number than 5, but you can always mix and match, at least from bank to bank.

If it were my engine, I'd sell the remains and start from scratch.

Cheers, George

[Dleong]

No missing valves. No indication of the piston hitting anything, although the evidence may be destroyed. The shrapnell was pretty fine, and maybe scored one othee cyl., but new pistons and cyl might've been be part of a rebuild anyway.

I will install a replacement engine, but then I'll have a box of parts to decide what is good and what is not.

[feelyx]

I would clean out your oil tank chances are schrapnel is in there via your oil pump. objects that big could rip right through your oil filter. I would at least have the case and crank checked, these engines can take a beating.

Tim in Sac

[Doug Zielke]

Dave.... 10/10!
Connoisseurs of Carnage thank you for sharing the pics.