Yes John wins. Dirko rules, huh?

Not that I have had any issues with 574 (hope I never do) but I have a rule of thumb. I set all my bearings, check all the orings, dowels, etc and regroup. I then apply my 574 when I am ready to put the case halves together-NOW. I never let them sit longer then smearing the 574 with my finger and slapping them together. I do see guys having issues with them when they let sit, even for 10-15 minutes. While it is not supposed to make a difference, I believe you can not let it skin. At any rate I just make sure it is a smear and go. :D

Don't know if I buy that. The 574 shouldn't harden - only in the absence of air. Theoretically. I've seen squeeze-out that never hardens. Still 45 minutes tops is what everyone seems to use as the benchmark for assembling the case halves...

-Wayne

It skins like gravy if you don't assemble it quickly. Good to have all components ready to go as soon as the orange goop is spread. It doesn't harden up, it just skins.

In theory it should not dry until it is without air, however I have heard of way to many people having issues with letting the 574 sit. I can say that I have seen it skin when blobbed on the surface and left. I believe it is the skinning in conjunction with the amount. If used with a roller I doubt there to be an issue, however with a smear and glob from your finger the amount is far greater and one small spot would cause a mess. There are a few examples on this board as well as John. For me, I can't risk it. Not with the warranty I offer. 574 and put that case together.

Steve Weiner told me that the trick is to snug down the perimeter bolts first. I see Greg Brown also says the same thing. Greg Brown wrote a good article (does he write any other kind?) about case sealing in Velocity Winter 2002 starting on page 24*. Thanks to Bill V. for tipping me off to this article.
-Chris

* Page 24 of the PDF, page 46 in the hard copy magazine.

That is always a great idea and I do agree. The ONLY time I DON'T is when it is an old 2.7 case.

This is another topic up for interpretation. On the subject of 574, I think that it gets blamed quite often as a material defect, when in fact, the problems are with long install times and/or poor surface preparation. I know that on at least one motor, I was guilty of not preping the surface well enough, and it did begin to leak there.

As for tightening the bolts - Stephen has it right - the early mag cases are a problem, and tweak and torque themselves. I would say on the aluminum cases (stiff) that it wouldn't terribly matter which order you torqued the nuts down, but on the mag cases (especially ones that haven't been machined fully/properly), I would torque down the through bolts first...

-Wayne

May the engine need a Kotex!!!

As a quick update, I've got the engine case, all sealed up and just getting ready to install the exhaust and intake? Might actually be able to get it in the car over the holiday (July 4th) and see if I did a better job this time round.

As for cleaning the cases, I was meticulous this time round. Made sure ti really wipe everthing down and applied plenty of 574. Reinspected the case (with another set of eyes examining and found a piece of the spreader brush). Did a double examination of the case to make sure it would go together cleanly, then put it all together and tightened it down quickly and efficiently (that's what I think I did wrong the first time round).

In case your wondering why it's taken so long, I have a two year old (who likes to help) and a 4 month old (and a wife that puts up with my obsession).

Michael

My suggestion is to use plastic spreaders from a hobby shop, not the cheesy little brushes that leave hairs behind.

Update: She's Alive, alive I tell you, alive.

Fired her up this weekend. After about 10 seconds of cranking, she fired right up. Idle went to about 1800 then settled down to around 1000 RPMs. Talk about a relief.

And then, I notice a leak. I'm thinking, oh *&$%. Went back and looked at where it was coming from and thought, well that's strange, it's coming out of the passenger side heads. That can't be right.

Walked away, and then came back. Looked closer, and noticed that it was coming out of the oil fitting on the chain tensioner on the passenger side. I remembered that in Wayne's book, he mentions not to over tighten since you can always tighten if they are leaking. Picked up the wrench, gave it a little snug, no more oil. When it was leaking, it fell down on the metal surround and leaked everywhere through it. Now, it appears that I have a leak proof engine.

Talk about relief.

Then I noticed the fuel leak. The rubber line running from the engine to the hard line that I believe runs back to the tank was leaking. Reached in there, tightened it up, still leaks. Tightened it up a little more, still leaks. So, I'm thinking that a 22 year old line has the right to leak and I'm not going to question it (I think the fitting on the inside is turning as I turn the nut on the hard line).

Any way, It would appear that the reason why the engine leaked the first time was that I didn't get the cases put together quickly enough.

Many thanks to a lot of members of the board.

Wayne: Your book is excellent. Had I followed your advice without question, I probably would have not had to do it twice.
Others: Thank you for your advice, your tools, your opinions, and your support. This was something that I always wanted to do and am much richer (poorer actually) for the experience. Of course, I'm already thinking a couple years down the road when I build my race car. Going to wait till my kids get a little older so that they can be involved.

Congrats on your engine rebuild. I might suggest that you use a 2nd wrench to counter hold when tightening any sort of fitting.
-Chris

There's no way to counterhold on that line. Not that I know of. It's called the fuel return line. It's a rubber hose that doesn't have a nut to hold onto. It's hard for me to explain. I can put my hand on the line and it doesn't turn when I turn the nut on the hard line that connects to it, but I can't get it to stop leaking.

use a 11mm open end wrench to counter-hold the return line. there are flat sides on the metal end that attaches to the engine line.

John,

You are the man. Worked like a charm. Took a little less than 1/8 turn to seal it. No gas leaks. Took my car for it's first spin. I purchased it in boxes so this was the first time I've ever driven it.

Thank you to you, Wayne, Henry, Grady, and quite a few others for all your advice.

I'm having a good day.

Michael

That's right. "if it were a Chevy you wouldn't have this problem". But then again if it was a frog you wouldn't have to feed it gasoline. My point, a frog is not a car and a Chevy is not a Porsche. I would rather eat sand than give up my Porsche to drive a Chevy, any Chevy.
That said, I do own a Corvette but if I had to choose, the Vette is gone.http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/.../hotbounce.gif

Back to the real question: We always use 5 different adhesives when assembling 911 engines.No one adhesive can perform all the needed sealing requirements. ThreeBond 1104 on case halves, ThreeBond 1211 on the # 8 main bearing, Curil T on the cylinder base geskets, 574 Loctite where the case halve comes together at the through bolts and on gaskets (very this coat) and Epoxy patch where epoxy is required.

this may be a dumb question but could someone, post rebuild use the case breather hose and pressurize the case to see if there are any obvious leaks?

Problems with this that immediately come to mind is that the case is not heated so it may not reveal all leaks

I guess one would have to plug up all oil lines...and I would guess that leaks by the cylinders would be minimal...

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

anyone...

I've thought of this question for a while and haven't come up with a good answer. Seems like it would work. My question though is oil is made to move in a particular direction inside the engine. If you just presurized the engine, what damage could you do to some of the relief values internal to the engine. Probably nothing but I dont' know. Some of the experts would have to chime in. Had I built the engine right the first time, I wouldn't have had the problem.

With most engines if the case becomes pressurized leaks will be created where they previously did not exist. Its food for thought but the amount of pressure required to leak test a motor would surely cause some seal to blow out. The first thing that comes to mind would be a rear main seal. Chuck

I would highly recommend starting any Porsche engine on an enigne stand prior to puttin the thing back into the body.

Porsche is famous for "marking its terratory" with a bunch of spilled oil. No doubt a bunch of non Porsche owners will contest this fact, but its true, as any Real Porsche owner will testify.

Only a MB diesel is more well known for marking its territory.

I agree with Snowman. I posted here before I installed my rebuild and everyone said don't bother with a stand. In hindsight I should ahve done it.

now for the DIY'er do you suggest building a engine test stand? or are you talking about taking it to a reputable shop that has a stand and have it started there?

how much do shops charge for this service?

Do you run normal break in procedures while on the stand or once engine is in car?

just wondering...

I did everything else myself, by comparison the stand would have been easy.

It is standard practice on two strokes (or it is supposed to be) to pressure test the engine cases up to 5 psi.
When I do it I pressure it up and then shut off the air and start checking for leaks with snoop (soapy water). I also watch the gauge to see if the pressure falls off. No reason that couldn't be done with a 911 engine but I think it is overkill.
Dr. Deming taught us that inspection after the fact is too late, the time to inspect is while you still have time to change the outcome without starting over. Sorry, that just slipped out. Too much brainwashing in the 90's.

Running on an engine stand? A little easier if the engine wasn't a dry sump. Supreme overkill. Just install it in the car - you can't run in an engine on a stand, unless it's a dyno...

-Wayne

Its easy, just mount the oil tank next to the engine/transmission and run the std oil lines between them, you do not need the oil cooler connected. Its worth the small ammount of extra effort, given the ammount of time required to fix anything in the car.

wouldn't the torque of starting the motor need a sturdier stand? i don't trust that harbor freight stand with a 200hp engine vibrating away

plus you'd need a fuel hook up, oil, electrical

i'd say take it somewhere to run on an engine dyno (like jerry woods) can do some fine tuning while you are at it...

or install into car and cross your fingers

MJ

I think you are confusing "engine test stand" with "engine assembly stand".
A simple engine test stand would just support the motor+transmission or part of a transmission bell housing. Heck, you could probably just support it on some blocks if you weren't afraid of it vibrating off. The transmission is used to support the starter.
Seems like a lot of work compared to just popping it in a car but I suppose if you did a lot of motors it might be worth it.
I know a shop that has one. I've never seen it but I figured it what they had after a piece of it was left on a friend's motor that they debugged.
-Chris

I think the main benefit would be the ability to see where the inevitable oil leaks are. I had several small leaks that would have been easy to diagnose and fix on a test stand, but were difficult to troubleshoot with the engine in the car.

In the end I spent more time removing/installing several times, than I would have spent building a test stand and fixing everything at once. I'm sure this is less of an issue after you have done a couple of Porsche engines, and for those of you not doing 2.7's.

Then again, maybe I'm just a crappy mechanic.

Your mechanical skills are probably just fine. What you encountered is what most DIY Porsche engine builders encounter. Building a Porsche engine is not as easy as some would have you believe. Your ability to admit to the problems is admirable. Keep trying and you'll get it right sooner or later.

It's just a question of whether the engine mounting bolts wear out before my resolve :)

Its really no big deal, not matter the HP of the engine. They run very very smooth. Heck you can almost start them on the ground ( The only reason I wouldn't suggest this is the ammount of dirt you might stir up) Otherwise anything that will hold the engine will do.

Engine Test Stand
 

Building a test stand might be a bit overdone if you rebuild a engine only once. But if you do it more regularly you might certainly benefit from it.

We will test our rebuild 2.2 engine on the test stand of the Porsche specialist we do business with.
(For images of test stand see www.erpa.nl --> chapter "Revisie & Restauratie" )

Kind regards,

Sander

Just put it in.
If it works , you win. Running the engine on an engine stand takes just as much work as installing it in the car. If you have a problem, take it out. When you get a system in your head, you'll find it only takes an hour or so.
Most of the problems in a new engine will show up immediately. Some will take a little longer. if you put it in and drive it awhile you can fix all the problems at the same time.
Good luck