Help: REbuild is leaking oil like crazy (Update)
 

I followed the Bentley Manual and Wayne's book. Followed everything, checked and rechecked.

Put it in, hooked it up, followed Wayne's start up proceedure.

Fire it up and:

After a bit of encouragement, it fired up, smoking like crazy. I was psyched. Then, I noticed the oil. Flowing out the back like crazy. The engine was running strong, sounding like it was suppose to. Problem is, I have a quart of oil on my driveway.

What did I do wrong? What should I look for? Help please.

Couple things I noticed was the oil pressure was showing 5 bars and the tach was not working. Not sure if this matters or not but I provide it at ancellary knowledge.

The leak appears to be coming from the area of the driveshaft pulley.

Please help. I'm feeling ill right now.:eek:

Given the reported size of your oil leak I would first suspect something is missing or loose in the area of the pulley. I recommend you relax, clean up the oil the best you can, replace the leaked oil and restart the engine and look for the oil leak. It is sometimes helpful to blow a coating of baby powder over the area of the suspected leak. The leaking oil will carry away the powder giving you a trail back to the leak. Some possibilities: Did you install the gasket on the intermediate shaft cover and are the screws tightened? Is the temperature sender screwed in properly with thread sealant? Are the cam tower lines or the oil pressure sender leaking? Is the crankshaft seal behind the pulley leaking? All of these possibilities may be readily fixed with the engine in the car. If the Loctitie 574 sealant was improperly applied to the area around the no. 8 nose bearing or the o-ring around the nose bearing was damaged or improperly seated then the leak will likely require addressing by pulling the engine and resplitting the case. Hope you find it is something simple. Cheers, Jim

Quart of oil? That's not a small leak - something is disastrously wrong...

Driveshaft pulley area means missing number eight o-ring (very bad), or damaged front pulley seal (can be replaced with the engine in the car).

-Wayne

I'll be trying to address it tomorrow. I have to figure out how to start pulling the pully out without dropping the engine. I was so sick to see the oil yesterday that I couldn't think straight.

To your comment about the Loctitie 574 sealant being improperly applied, how would I have done that. I thought I followed the book.

Hopefully I have time tomorrow. My wife is expecting our second child (due date on Wednesday) and my goal was to have this back and runnign before the second child was born. Don't think I'm going to make that date now.

I know the ring was on it when I installed. I also know I put a new engine seal in as well. I guess I won't know till I pull the pulley and see where it's leaking from. As you can tell, I'm not getting a lot of sleep right now thinking about it. It's to cold out in the garage to start working on it.

It's probably the main crank seal. Are you sure you didn't forget to put it in? If not, then it's probably installed incorrectly... Or the layshaft cover is leaking... Bu that's enough oil to suggest the main seal, because that area is under oil pressure.

I took a quick look this A.M. before work and it's not the layshaft cover. It appears to be coming up from behind the pulley. Next step is to pull the pulley off, and see if I can tell where it's coming from. Anything I should know about pulling the pulley? Should I start briefely or should I be able to tell. Should I just turn it over without fuel to build pressure? It only seem like it leaks when it 's running. Don't really see it leaking when I'm just turning it over.

Thoughts?

clean the area, get a strong flashlight, and start the engine. maybe you can see it leaking. worst case, it could be coming from between the case and the #8 main bearing. did you smear a thin coat of sealer in the case bore where the o ring contacts the case?

Yes. So, hopefully, it's an improper application of the main seal.

Thanks for everyone's support. You don't know how sick I felt to see the oil coming out like that. To go from increadible joy to hear it fire up to total dismay to see oil coming out the bottom.

good luck, and CONGRATS to your upcoming new baby!

Three points: Oil dumped on a non-absorbant flat surface makes a big puddle or stream (since few surfaces are truly flat); a quart of oil makes a really big puddle or stream. You may have not leaked as much oil as it seems. The first time I installed a pulley end seal on a 911 engine I messed it up even with the correct factory tool. I managed to get it "cocked" with the inner lip and the "garter" spring awry. I fussed with it and got things straightened out but was concerned I'd damaged something so I pulled it and installed a new seal more carefully - no leak occurred. The important thing is not to despair and give up.

Replacing pulley seal with engine in car: Parking brake on, wheels chocked, transmission in gear, rear of engine jacked and blocked up to take load off rear engine mount. Remove belts, remove muffler, remove rear engine mount, remove rear sheet metal tray piece, (may also need to remove air pump and A/C bracket), remove console (bracket surrounding pulley on crank), and crank pulley.

Good luck, Jim

Jim, thanks for the hope. I'm really hoping it's the seal. Thanks for the info on the best way to pull the stuff. I'll get working on that tonight and let everyone know what I find.

On second thought, it was probably more like a half a quart over a couple of minutes. I don't recall using the special tool to seat the seal so I'm wondering if I didn't set the seal properly? Would this cause the leaking I'm seeing?

1/2 a quart over a few minutes is still a big leak. Some are able to install the seal without the factory tool; since I've had access to one I have always used the tool. Did you lubricate the inner lip of the seal with engine oil and apply a sealant like Curil-T to the outside of the seal before tapping it into place? Did the lip that runs on the shaft ever become twisted or turned inside out? If this happens the "garter" spring which pushes the seal lip against the shaft and effects the dynamic seal may no longer be in place and perfoming it's function. Jim

1/2 qt over a few minutes would be a LOT for a leak between the case and #8 bearing, so hopefully it's the seal. maybe the spring got knocked off. the fittings on the cam oil lines are tight? also the hard lines from the cam lines to the chain covers. the bolts that hold the ramps in the case too.

If it's the seal, is a relatively easy replacement...

-Wayne

If it is the seal, should I replace with a new one figuring this one was bad or was damaged on assembly?

I'll be pulling it apart tomorrow to inspect per Jim's instructions.

And one other question, could I have something blocked in a passage way that is forcing the oil in that direction causing the leak?

If it is the pulley end seal that is leaking install a new one. Jim

I think it will be obvious when the pulley is removed. You will probably see a pinched seal or something like that...

-Wayne

Before going to the trouble of removing the pulley make sure it is not leaking at the base of the distributer, oil from here might appear to run down behind the pulley.

Worst case scenario confirmed. A fellow Denver Pellicanite (Grady Clay) came over and helped me pull it apart. It's coming out from the outside of the bearing.

Therefore, it's either a pinched seal or the bearing was bad, not perfectly round, or something. Anyway, it's a complete disassembly.

Wayne, look for some more orders coming from me in the near future. Not sure what I will be needing until disassembly.

Grady did mention that we should have a disassembly party when I get it back down to the block. Seems like a good idea to have people analyze what went wrong.

Also, I'm planning on doing a leak test before I start disassembly to make sure everything looks good from that side.

So, what's next. Beside the birth of our next child which is due any day. My thought is to pick up a used engine so I can drive the car then take my time with the rebuild and maybe do some more modifications to improve it's street performance.

Thanks for the advice. And, if anyone has an 80 - 82 engine they want to loan me, I'm all ears.

So, any thoughts on what I did wrong?

i had that problem a few years ago on a 77 930 engine. seems the 574 anarobicized as a thick mass between the case halves, and the nose bearing o ring didn't get squeezed properly. 9as well as the rest of the engine). that stuff is supposed to be applied with a tiny roller, a very thin coating. now for years i just swabbed it on with my finger and never had a problem, that i know of, until that 930 engine. so now i'm scared of it. dirko rules.

Uh oh, John fuels the sealant argument here.

Sorry to hear about your news. In all honesty though, since you have assembled the thing so recently, you should probably be able to tear it down and slap it back together within a weekend. Not too much cleaning to be done - you don't have to separate the heads and the cam towers, and you don't have to do any clearance checks. Since you're familiar with it right now, and all the nuts/bolts are not frozen on the car, I think that you will be very surprised at how quickly you can drop the engine and tear it down.

Tips for saving time:

- Drop the engine without the transmission
- Remove the injection as a single unit, including the fiberglass shroud
- Keep the heads and the cam towers together (no need to remove rockers then)
- Keep the pistons inside the cylinders (no need to reseat the rings)

More thoughts - did you put in the dowel pin for the bearing and align it properly?

-Wayne

Update:

On Thursday, February 19th, my wife gave birth to the most beautiful little girl in the world. We're all doing great. Helps to put everything in perspective. Thank you to everyone's best wishes.

It's going to be a couple of weeks before I'm ready but I'm intrigued by the idea that I don't have to pull the towers and cams out. How do you handle the connection from the rods to the pistons if they are all together as one unit. That was probably my least favorite part and I did that one at a time. Is there a special tool that makes putting those little retainers in easier.

Question for the board. A fellow Pelicanite suggested that I run then engine for the break in period (adding oil of course) to check to make sure nothing else isn't working. Note that I bought the engine in boxes so this is the first time I've seen it run. Do you all think this is a good or bad idea?

Congratualtions on the birth of your daughter; she is what really counts. Loctite 574 can be easily and uniformly applied onto the case sealing surfaces with a $.79 acid brush and an "axial dabbing" technique. Jim

As far as aplicators go I would strongly recommend a plastic glue spreader over the acid brush. The brush can leave bristles which will cause leaks. The glue spreaders can be found at arts and craft stores, even cheaper than acid brushes :)

When I dissasembled my engine it was clear that 574 had been applied around the seal of the #8 bearing. Is this normal practice? Wayne's book has it going in dry.

In spite of the general feeling that o rings should be free to move, which is 99% true, i always use a bit of sealer in the case bore where the o ring would contact. preferably something that doesn't set up hard.

TWo things:

Wayne: Have you ever pulled the cylinders and heads as one unit and are there any lesson's learned?

John: What type of sealer do you recommend?

the chain housings are removed first. next, the heads and cam towers come off as a unit. the P+Cs next. it'll be easier next time. it will be interesting to see what you find as the reason for the leak.
i've been using an ELRING product called DIRKO. just go easy on it and it won't squeeze out to speak of. part # UN 125 3000 from IMC, elring #036.161. elring makes curil, so it shouldn't be to hard to find. try pelican first, they can get most stuff.

John,

Thank you, that makes sense.

What does everyone think about running it and breaking it in while it's still in the car? Does it make sense to see what else might be wrong or is better for assembly / disassembly to not run it?

Thoughts?

yank it.

If this were a chevy you wouldn't have this problem.

I agree with Mr Walker(completely). And Snowman (a bit).

Wanted to Provide an Update:

1) So, having a two year old and a two month old has slowed down the rebuild significantly.
2) The issue was that I didn't get the case halves sealed down quickly enough and the Loctitie hardened in that area. You could actually see some spots where it was pretty thick. Sometimes you can read, and reread, and still do something that is fundamentally stupid.
3) The engine case halves are back together. And to Wayne's question, the dowl pin was in the hole.
4) I'm putting the P&C's on this weekend if I can get a few hours. Once again, having a two year old and a two month old diverts your attention away from the hobby. But it's a great diversion.

My question. I removed the heads as one unit. I tried to keep the cams from moving but one side moved slightly as I was pulling the chain off. What's the best way to put the heads back on. Should I just loosen all the rockers, get the cams set at the appropriate location, then perform the cam adjustment like I did previously?

All help greatly appreciated.

Michael

Just did this a weekend ago. You can rough time the engine by getting both your cam "dots" on the ends of the cams pointing up, and then setting the engine to TDC on 1. You can then carefully assemble the head/cam blocks back to the short block. Then attach your chains, and re-time the engine as normal. We didn't even really need to loosen rockers, although we did loosen 1 and 4 to be safe. With SC cams I can't imagine you'll need to.

guess i was right on the 574.