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911 engine conversion
I must get asked at least twice a week “Why would you do such a thing? Ruin a perfectly good 911 by putting a Subaru Engine in it “ The answer is simple, I think of these cars as “Art in motion” but from a maintenance stand point they’re the Devils Advocate!
I have owned several 911s ranging from 1971-1978 and only one of them ever cost me less than $3000.00 a year to keep running, most people in my position do not have access to unlimited financial resources, so they use their Porsche as interior garage ornaments, starting them up every 3 months and backing them out onto the driveway to give them a bath or for a quick Saturday drive of less than a 100 miles, then back in the garage they go. Why? Because none of us want to deal with maintenance issues or the cost associated with them. My father owned a Body Shop since the day a was old enough to walk, growing up in this environment, I learned that if you don’t like the way something is designed you change it. The Holdbrook Motorsport conversion for Porsche 911 has taken me 3 years to perfect, here is why it’s such great conversion. First of all I should point out an engine rebuild on a high mileage 911 will set you back about $7,000.00 on average, usually confirming your fears that the engine rebuild will cost about what the complete car is worth, then you must consider “do I want to spend an additional $7,000.00 on my garage ornament? That is usually the last nail in the Coffin of your 911 project. While the guys that do 911 small block Chevy engine conversions have their heart in the right place, They have some fundamental problems with their conversions, You have to cut the nose of your 911 out to install a Radiator, this totally offends Porsche owners of all financial backgrounds and radically alters the Porsche. I have done this radiator conversion twice an it’s a lot more involved than I would want to get myself into if I were a novice, and it’s very time intensive, around a week just for Radiator mounting, with some Kits it’s necessary to cut the gas tank. With a Holdbrook Motorsport Conversion - Complete radiator mounting takes about 2 hours, you cut nothing, and the radiator mounts in the engine compartment and can swing up or down for easy engine maintenance and utilizes “Ram Air” through the rear deck lid Grill allowing the vehicle to retain it’s stock appearance and structural integrity. With a small Block Chevy Conversion it is impossible to use this radiator mounting system, The engine itself will not fit unless you take the front off of it and run the Alternator , Water Pump, AC Compressor off a modified belt system. There is also a rear weight issue, our Chevy LT-1 with aluminum intake and heads, weighed in at 575 lbs. that’s without exhaust manifolds or mufflers, a Turbo Porsche engine weighs right at 500 lbs. When I enquired about a handling issue I was told “ You learn how to drive it with the extra weight, it’s Great”, Great? I can teach an elephant to use a skate board, but it still doesn’t make it right. The other problem I had with the small block Chevy Conversion was after you had spent a month piecing your 911 together it sounded like your brother-in-law’s pickup. With the Holdbrook Motorsport Conversion your engine looks and sounds like a Porsche, the 3.3 liter fuel injected 230 hp 24 valve Boxer engine weighs in at 384 lbs. You don’t have to dismantle the engine to make it fit the engine Bay,and you can be driving your completed 911 conversion in three days. Best of all, you can sell that high mileage 911 engine to someone who has more money than common sense and use the money to off set the price of the conversion. CHECK IT OUT ! www.holdbrookmotorsport.com HoldbrookMotorsport.com |
This sounds like an advertisement, but is intriguing enough for me to let it stay for the moment...
I always thought that the Honda V-TEC engines were the top god these days... -Wayne |
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Re: 911 engine conversion
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Hmmm, $6000 and I still need to come up with an engine. Tell me again how this is cheaper? Is this some of that governmental "fuzzy math?" |
I'll admid that the thought of a hot-rodded NA 2.5L 4V Subaru engine has some draw for a low displacement light weight "run-about".
Something with a bit more guts would be the ubiquitos turbo version or the flat 6's, though I'm sure the 6's are a lot harder to find. |
Wayne,
You are far too diplomatic...I think its a blatant ad. The shop is in Montana and the poster also lists his location as Montana...it reads just like copy or an infomercial. Kurt, I agree...seeing how my SC motor has 190,000, and if the rebuild gets another 200,000 miles (for less money than the conversion), the combined total of the kit and engine would have to last more than 500,000 miles to be worth while. Seely, Although I have posted in the past that the conversion sounds like a very cool alternative, the cost just does not make sense. Also, I think you are making a HUGE generalization about the 911 owners on this board. Most guys here work on their rides (to include all aspects...not just washing and waxing) and in a lot of cases drive the pi$$ out of their cars. Truth be known, I spend more money on my car for little things that I fix for my own reasons...the car itself has been pretty cheap to maintain becasue the parts were so well engineered in the first place. Heck, I JUST repalced the original, 20 year old, rear shocks...190,000 miles and they finally gave up the ghost. Funny thing is my buddies busted my nuts because I had to pay SO much for them ($125/each...I figured it was a bargain). Of course they work great, and if they last me even 15 years, I'm sure my firends will have soaked at least that much dough into spongy, crappy monroe shocks. just my $.02 R/ Dustin |
A 3.3 liter Engine costs about $3500.00 so together with our Engine conversion kit total cost is around $9500.00. The Engine rebuild on the Porsche Engine will average around $7000.00.
Then if it needs a new Muffler, another $500.00 plus installation, Then you will have to pay the Mechanic to set up the Engine so it runs smooth.( going rate is $95.00 hr.) average bill is $400.00, but if your one of the unlucky one's who has worn out mechanical injection and carburetors, the fun is just beginning! After the Mechanic has finished up and handed you your complementary jar of Vaseline,and sent you on yourway, its a given that you will be back every 3 months to adjust the carburetors.( average $400.00 per visit) or you can just not drive it. Add in all the future maintenance costs and parts replacement and I would take the Engine conversion option every time, ITS COMPLETE! average maintenance cost $50.00 per year, plus you have true fuel injection and 230 horses! This Engine is non- interference which means if you ever loose a timing belt while you're driving it doesn't ruin your Engine unlike most other Engines! Finally, the Porsche Engine is oil cooled, I have personally purchased two 911s that were totaled because of Engine fires as a result of backfiring while they were being started, igniting an oily engine and goodbye Porsche! Replace the Porsche Engine and sell it, put the money toward your conversion and enjoy your car! --- |
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...
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If a 911 owner is too naive to adjust their own carburetors, then they certainly won't be doing an engine swap.
This doesn't make any sense... -Wayne |
Where in Montana are you located?
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Western Montana - Missoula
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I wish my customers would come back every 3 months for a carb adjust.......
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Here's an idea, if you really wanted a neat conversion why not the 2.7 Porsche Boxter? I figure if the can cram it between the seats and the truck on a Boxter it will fit in the back of a 911. Sure the motors are a little hard to come by and a bit pricey but it's still a Porsche flat six. At least the V8 guys can brag about all the HP and torque they can make, this subby sway addresses percieved maintenance costs. To me the smart money would be to build a complete EFI intake and system like this one. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/autopartsphotos/fuel_inj/3500_callouts.gif
Seems to me that two manifolds (small and large runner versions) would cover the 2.0 all the way to the 3.0 and solve a lot of people a lot of problems as well as making things like turbos and superchargers more easy to install. My .02c |
One other thing I should point out, I LOVE V8 engines. I'm one of those guys who can tell a small block Ford from a small block Chevy half a mile away just by the sound of the exhaust so you're never gonna convince mt that a flat four subaru will sound even close to a real 911 engine. As much as I love V8's they just don't belong in a 911 and neither does any other engine for that matter. To me the distinct sound of a 911 with sport exhaust is a big part of the pleasure in owning one. If I need more reliability from a 911 I'll just put a newer engine it it but for right now my carbed 3.0SC engine suits my '66 just fine and believe me the exhaust gets rave reviews from everyone whos ridden in it as well as a lot of bystanders.
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That was an add.
I thought this forum was to ask questions, get answers, learn how to, etc. I wouldn't mind if post was a documentation with pictures of how you did it to your Porsche, but if it's an add on how you can purschase the parts from someone else, then what respect is there for our host? |
A 3.3 liter Engine costs about $3500.00 so together with our Engine conversion kit total cost is around $9500.00. The Engine rebuild on the Porsche Engine will average around $7000.00.
>Then if it needs a new Muffler, another $500.00 plus installation, Are subaru exhausts free? You are making quite a stretch here as to needing a new muffler >Then you will have to pay the Mechanic to set up the Engine so it runs smooth.( going rate is $95.00 hr.) average bill is $400.00 Huh? Most guys on this site are DIYers...why would they rebuild their own motor and THEN take it in to be "set up" to run smoothly? Again, you just added an arbitrary $400 bones to the total when its a non-issue. >but if your one of the unlucky one's who has worn out mechanical injection and carburetors, the fun is just beginning! After the Mechanic has finished up and handed you your complementary jar of Vaseline,and sent you on yourway, its a given that you will be back every 3 months to adjust the carburetors.( average $400.00 per visit) or you can just not drive it. Okay, this is just ridiculous. I think the majority of 911's on this board run CIS or Mototronic, so your $1200/year cost to adjust the carbs or MFI is out to lunch. Besides, I've heard of a lot of guys getting their MFI dialed in and never having to mess with it for a LONG time. >Add in all the future maintenance costs and parts replacement and I would take the Engine conversion option every time, ITS COMPLETE! average maintenance cost $50.00 per year, plus you have true fuel injection and 230 horses! Again, just another supposed expense...you mean like oil changes etc? Do Subaru engines not require replacement parts? >This Engine is non- interference which means if you ever loose a timing belt while you're driving it doesn't ruin your Engine unlike most other Engines! Non-issue with 911 engines with the tensioner upgrade...about $400. The chains just don't break. Basically, this sounds like a scare tactic suggesting that we're living on borrowed time until a chain breaks. >Finally, the Porsche Engine is oil cooled, I have personally purchased two 911s that were totaled because of Engine fires as a result of backfiring while they were being started, igniting an oily engine and goodbye Porsche! Yes, they are oil cooled, and I have to admit that oil dripping on hot surfaces can lead to engine fires...actually mine suffered a small one about 8 years ago due to a small oil leak that became a big one at the wrong time. However, having said that, ALL engines are potentially fires waiting to happen. Last I checked the Subaru also runs on gas and uses oil. >Replace the Porsche Engine and sell it, put the money toward your conversion and enjoy your car! Dang! Too late, I ALREADY enjoy my car. Again, I think the Subaru engine (6 cyl) would make a pretty cool conversion, but with the costs involved (essentially $10,000), I think you could do as good or better putting in a 964 motor for the same mileage and money. I will admit that most Japanese engines cost very little to maintain, but I'm not so sure that the 911 guys on this board simply leave their cars in the garage for fear of maintenance costs....heck, it ain't like operating a helicopter. R/ Dustin |
I haven't pulled it because it hardly seems like a reasonable swap ($$$) to me...
-Wayne |
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Guys, all I'm saying is this, Not all of us are Porsche mechanics but
we do love the cars! I'm not advocating that everyone should do this! its an option and the tech bulletin says " engine conversion" not " guys don't change a thing" Example- my 1976 was totaled due to an engine fire, I was told by porsche mechanic's that I could purchase another 2.7 liter for around $2700.00 and do a rebuild on that Engine, grand total around $9000.00 but... in the same breath was told " their not a desirable engine because of the magnesium case and problems with the head studs" that I really should look for a 3.0 liter. In Seattle I was #14 on a list for a used 3.0 that would have at least 200,000 on it.( cost around $5000.00) then I was told it would more than likely need a rebuild ( another $7000.00) that is if I wanted to wait around for a year. My 1976 911 is worth in reality around $7500. With this conversion we don't cut the cars up, you go from 150 horse power ( 2.7 liter Porsche engine ) to 230 horse power, no more oil leaks, and in my case ,no more Engine fires! I was even able to sell my fire damaged 2.7 liter for $1700.00 and off set the cost of the conversion. Again Guys, I'm just offering an option, that dosen't cut the cars up and the car can be returned to stock very easily which is not the case with most conversions. This is my passion and provides an alternative way to keep one's older 911 on the road. |
6 cylinder subes kick butt, and i wouldn't mind one in my watercooled vanagon pickup, but in a 911, there's just something wrong with that.
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It's one thing to do that conversion for fun and to wind up the purists (always fun) but as an economical alternative it just doesn't make sense. I think most guys that could tackle your conversion would simply replace their 2.7 with a 3.0 motor ($3500) and perform a top end rebuild themselves (say $1500). So for about $5K they'd have a car that is worth a little more than they started with. (That doesn't count the oil cooler and lines you'd need but selling the old motor would pay for them.)
I think the same car with $9500 worth of Suburu motor is going to almost impossible to sell thus devaluing the car. That said, hats off to you for figuring everything out. How about some pics? -Chris |
ooohhh kaaay...
time to throw a little Subie knowledge out there. The 2.7/3.3 flat 6 variants are ancient motors. 8 years old, minimum. What are you getting there? What are the maintainance costs associated with a decade-old motor? They're not going to be $50 a year for too long. I was puzzled to see the two sizes- Subaru only has one flat 6 engine currently, and it's the 3.0 liter in the Legacy Outback, and those aren't on the ground like flies. Why would you swap in a crappy old motor? Sure, they're reliable, to a point. You'd be better off shoving in a WRX/2.5 RS motor wih far fewer miles. I am in no way saying that Subie engines belong in Porsches, but if you're gonna do it, do it the right(?) way. It'd be like putting in a diesel benz motor for reliability. Or a mopar slant six. Or a Model T engine. The 2.7 came in the STX models, which were discontinued in about '96... that's not new any more. Paid about 9 grand for the SC... Blow the motor, sell it for 4500. Buy another 911 SC for 9 grand. Blow the motor, sell it for 4500. Buy another SC for 9 grand. YOU ARE NOW AT THE COST OF THIS CONVERSION KIT. And you don't even get to blow up two 911's.... Ran a 15.1@94mph on a crappy evening... STX's didn't go that fast. Why go backwards? If you want ultimate reliablilty, go buy a new Honda Odessey. 15.1 isn't the fastest time out there, but I don't feel bad considering it's the 5th fastest car in the yard... Personally, I think a Chevy 2.5 liter "Iron Duke" motor from a Fiero would be killer... Tha was a sports car, right? Doug |
And where is the $3000 a year thing coming from? Mind the rev limiter, use the clutch and don't hit anything. I don't have well under two grand in receipts in two years, and that's including new tires and shocks, tie rods, full tune up, weatherstripping, etc etc etc. Only way you'll spend $3k a year in maintainance is if you count car payments.
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I guess some people just don't understand.
Unfortunately, my first older Porsche nickle and dimed me to death which ended up forcing me to sell it (long story). Now I'm in the market for any car I want...and I can't wait to get another one! |
Who in there right mind would EVEN ...
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i have a 73t rolling body that didnt come with an engine so i cant take the old engine and sell it to help pay for a 3.0 or a 3.2. so like you i am wanting to do the same conversion with a wrx 2.5 turbo i think that would be plenty of motor for that little car. yes i know it wont sound like a porsche and yes it wont resale for as much but i dont plan on reselling this car. just wondering if you have used a 2.5 turbo yet and how that car drove and how much you spent on the whole conversion
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do you know if a 3.3 flat would fit in a 73t engine compartment. also great find on the motor
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Engine compartments are the same for 911s. If it fits in his SC, it should fit in your 1973 911T. Just try to run the water lines where oil cooler lines normally go, so that you do not cut the tub. This means that if you want a real Porsche engine in the future, the car will still be "unmolested".
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Heh. I'm on both sides of this - I love my 911 and the Porsche Flat 6 engine.
On the other hand, I have an SVX (parting out) right outside my office in the shop. I bought it to use in my Vanagon (not unpopular swap). I can understand why someone would want to, as there are a lot of pluses to the 3.3 SVX engine. 230-240hp stock, easy to get another 20 or so. In that tune, it would run and run and run (just like a 3.0 or 3.2 Porsche). Should be very reliable and long lasting. And if you pay $3500 for an old SVX engine, you're an idiot. Do a quick Craigslist search and you can find complete cars (drivers) for $1500-3000 all day long. eBay has engines for $500-1000. The false economy that most people don't realize is that there is a lot of time and fab work to make one fit. Read that thread that was done on the SC. Great work, but the guy is a very talented fabricator. Makes sense if you have lots of time and talent and no 911 engine in your 911, but still. It will increase the value of my Vanagon Syncro and make it much more enjoyable, but I wouldn't think about installing a swap like that into a long-nose 911. Maybe a ratty 74-77 or later unloved example - but even then... I've got a hot-rod 2.7 on the stand ready to replace my 2.4 in my 73.5 T and webers, etc. It's a 911 and the engine is one of the really big attractions to it for me. |
Oh, and didn't notice this thread had been brought back from the dead...
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