Case savers, who makes them and what type?
 

When rebuilding a mag case I know we put case savers in them.

Does anyone know the manufacturers name and specs (part number) for the case savers used for the head studs ?

When they are put in what type of glue is used to bond them to the mag case ?

get the time certs here from our host

thanks, I had no idea they sold that.

Well as usual, I searched for Time Cert and Case Saver on the Pelican web site and got a hundred things I did not want and not what I wanted. Could not find it.

So anyone know what I am looking for and where to get it ?

Time-serts are old technology, and I don't recommend their use. See the book for details...

-Wayne

Time- serts make time bombs
 

I agree with Wayne on this one. If you use Time-serts in mag cases for heads stud threads you're asking for trouble.
We do you time-serts to repair/upgrade the four 8mm studs in the mag case that must be inserted when doing an overhaul. I recommend that you have a machine shop install Case Savers because case inserts for head studs should be installed on a mill ( like a Bridgeport). If you install them by hand the studs end up going in all directions. In our shop this is called a " porcupine case" and these cases are a nightmare. They make the installation of cylinders almost impossible (certainly anything but pleasant). Many quality shops like SUPERTEC provide this service. Seek and yea shall find.

As for "old technology", we have been using Case Savers for 35 years, ever sense our VW days.

On a more human note:
President Reagon GOD BLESS YOU and REST IN PEACE.

On a political note:
Mr. Kerry " WHY THE LONG FACE ?"

I dono if W.D. sells them or not.....thought he did. One thing I am thinkin is if you have a mag case (this is not to scare ya and it works out well) there are several updates that should be done while apart..some required some are options (dowl pin and boat tail) I would concider the oil mod as a req. as well as the line bore chec as they all seem to wonder out of the strait zone.......there only 30 yr old ya know!

Where can I buy the case savers ????

Who sells them and what is the part number ??

Ist- call Darrin at the parts counter here at P.P. if that dose not work Ill give ya an other clue.....just want to support the mother ship

HELP,

I called Pelican and they did not know what I was talking about, now I am lost, so does anyone know who makes the case savers, the companys name and what part number ?

look in your P.M. box

If PP doesn't we do
 

We got them. The problem with ordering Case Savers is that there are different sizes. Unless you know which one your case needs, it's hard to buy the right one.
I advise that this operation be performed by a professional machine shop.

Re: Case savers, who makes them and what type?
 

I would guess that they are something like Keenserts. I suspect that the folks that are using them consider that info (you requested) proprietory. The VW bug people must have had the same problems, maybe you can search that universe?
-Chris

Re: If PP doesn't we do
 

That's basically what I found out when researching the Engine Rebuild book. This is not a DIY part of the job.

-Wayne

I have gone through the same investigations: Case savers are not sold singularly, there is several machine shops who use them for in house use only. Time-certs are certified by VW and Porsche for the head strud repair.
http://www.wuerth.de/de/produkte/auto/time-sert.html
Talking to Steve Weiner at Rennsportsystems he suggested that time-certs are just fine for my application (2.7RS stock). For racing applications other rules govern, so listen to the experts with a lot of trial and error experience!
Using the proper mounting plate it is well possible to mount the time-certs properly: In my case all struds are straight up and cylinders are easy to install.

This can't be rocket science, first look into using the inserts in Enco Catalogue, pp. 658 & 659.

Next, find or make a jig as a drill guide. This can't be too hard since the jib could be made big enough to bolt into the other existing fastners on th engine and supported quite flat on the case spigots. Check the depth so you don't drill so deep as to go through the case. Make sure the studs you are using will hold the loads from combustion.

One problem: it might be hard to find metric inserts but I think the differences between metric and US standards will fall in acceptable tolerance limits.

Try Reid Tool (reidtool.com) they sell inserts called "keylocking threaded inserts". We use them all the time in aluminum and magnesium; have never had a failure.

John

well this is not that hard.....I have to guess this is for the cyl. studs right??? call Rick Clewitt he is advertized in most P. car publications,,he even lent me the install tool. Good Guy he is

I disagree with Steve on this. See page 36 of the book, were I show how Time-Serts can pull out of the case.

Funny - both Henry and I recommend having a shop doing this procedure. And I'm a huge advocate of doing everything yourself, if it indeed can be done. It's not something that I would try in my own garage here at home, as I don't have a milling machine. Yet, no one seems to listen. I've seen a bunch of screwed up cases from people who thought they knew what they were doing...

-Wayne

Wayne, you are absolutely right that this work should be done in a professional workshop. I had discussed the issue already in February with my workshop. They have more than 25 years of 911 experience, doing also 356 and many vintage engines (Mille Miglia starts in town!). As I can judge they do at least 10 911 engines a year.In the seventies they did many 2.4 ->2.7 conversions. The problem of the head struds that you are talking so much in America here in Italy does not seem to exist. The workshop has not had particular problems with pulled head struds, yes sometimes one of the (not head-) struds in the case needs a helicoil, but that's all about it. We are talking about stock engines and not about raced engines.

Nevertheless I enquired about all these case saver stories:
I phoned to 3 places in the US to find out, Pelican Parts didn't know about it, a California machine workshop would only do the complete job, but not sell the case saver item. Steve Weiner was very helpful on the phone and this together with B. Andersons book was enough to go for the time-certs. Above all they are certified from the german car industry. So it shouldn't be worse than without inserts.
So finally, I had the time certs installed by the workshop, at the same time the cyl. bores in the case and the oil pressure update were done. If necessary I would also have done the replaning of the case surface, and align bore bearings, intermediate and sealings.

I understand your argument for the case-savers having coarser thread holding better to soft material. They are similar to furniture mounting hardware, and are not high tech material at all!
To me they look like a last resort for completely overheated engines:
Once the cases are completely overheated the material will creep enough to loose holding of the strud or time cert.
The calculation is clear: The more surface area you have the stronger the binding between strud and case. Therefore case-savers, beeing the biggest items are holding best.

Finally, may I ask you some statistics? How many pulled time certs have you seen? How many pulled head struds? How many engines with case-savers mounted have you seen?
Of these , how many from raced engines?


For the future I recommend you to add a little explanation on the case-saver in your excellent book. Just tell people that it is out of scope to do this at home. As a good business man you could also create a sort of rebuilder network in the US, with pelican parts beeing the coordinator.

Actually I do not recommend rebuilding engines without a workshop after my experience. What in my case started with fixing a noisy valve train, ended up in a full rebuild.
There is too many measurements and tolerances to be considered. If I would do it again, a very likely option for me would be to send the short block to a reputed workshop in the US and have the case rebuild properly there. Shipping is cheap nowadays (100USD), so the only ressurance I need is a proper warranty for the case rebuild. By doing so my rebuild time would have been much shorter ( My rebuilder let me wait 2 month)
Maybe I would have opted for some porting of the heads also...


Andreas
http://www.daedalussoft.com/classiccars/Porsche2.4S_Targa.jpg

Wayne,

I already proposed to my workshop to buy spare parts from PelicanParts. They are much cheaper than the current supplier , which is Porsche Italy with a miserable discount. There turnaround is about 3000 Euro/month for Porsche engines.

For the moment he is a little bit reluctant, first for the language problem, and second, he has already settled and does not really bother changing things. There is no time for burocracy and the owner prefers wroking with his own hands on the engines.

Andreas

Andreas,
Is Italy relatively cool by any chance?
I believe that here in (cool) New England, headstuds pulling is not as common as the literature would make you think. I think it is a question of temperature and perception. At one point, half the Porsches in the US sold were sold in (warm) California. Couple this with the fact that most of people writing about pulled head studs are probably in (warm) California and many Porsche machine shops fixing these head studs are in California and you get a perception of lots of pulled head studs.
I'm not against proper case preparation I'm just making an observation.
-Chris

On a mag case, installing case savers without doing any othe work is a waste of time. The case needs line honing/boring first. This sets a point where he case can be machined from. Then the case savers can be installed, the savers will stress the cylinder spigot hole so that will require machining and the deck height of the case will require machining too. The the long 8mm stud hole neds to be inserted. This is the minimum.

Thanks for all the replies. But one thing to consider is this, sometimes people do not have an extra three to seven thousand to tear the entire motor apart for a daily driver. Especially when everyone around them is telling them how worthless the 2.7 is to rebuild on. My situation is simple, I don't have the money to do it right and I would rather save up for a aluminum case and do it right with that better foundation in the future whenmoney affords.

Until then I need to repair two pulled studs so I can drive to work for the next year, oil leaks and all. I am sure I am not the only guy who could use a quick fix, so I figured out a way to do it myself.

Here's what you do.
1. You pull off the cylinder and take off the piston.
2. Build a jig of 4 tubes slightly shorter than the head studs. The tubes should be square and side braced.
3. One of the tubes is short near the case to allow for the drill bit and tap.
4. You pull out the stud where you have a pulled one. Put on the tool drill out the case and tap it. The tool if made properly will hold the drill and tap perfectly square.
5. Put in the case saver and move on to the next one.

The tool should cost less than twenty bucks to make if you can weld.

Yeah is sucks to do a job like this and this way but sometimes it is the only option.

I did find a local to sell me the case savers.
They come from a place called Winzer USA.

Agreed, sometimes what you need is not what you want. But remember, you've only repaired two studs, the rest of the lowers are probably on the way out too. If you drive carefully and don't thrash the car it should be ok until rebuild time.

thanks, all the studs already have case savers in, but somehow two did not stick. I have also added a oil cooler to keep temps down.

I would be willing to bet that what pulled out was a Time-sert not a CaseSaver.
TimeSerts have finer threads than CaseSavers so they don't hold as well.

Will TimeSerts work ? Sometimes
Are CaseSavers better ? All the time.

It's the thread pitch not the insert diameter that is important.

Please don't get me wrong, for some jobs Time-serts are great, we use them for many jobs, just not head studs on MAG cases.

PS: We have CaseSavers and will be happy to sell them.

Do not despair.
I can build any engine I want and I chose to rebuild a 2.7 for my own car. A 76 912E Money is almost always an issue. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1087669761.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1087669780.jpg

Cool Henry, I'll give you a call

Time Cert on the left.

CaseSaver on the right.

You choose

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088021025.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088021047.jpg

what is the external thread size and pitch of the case saver?

not that I doubt that it holds up better that a time sert, I'm just curious about how thin the spigot gets around the insert.

TimeCert 11.5 x 1.5
I'm not certain but they may have a BigCert . They do in the 8mm size.

The CaseSaver pictured is 13.8 x 2.0
This CaseSaver is for a case that was already butchered with TimeCerts.
CaseSavers come in many different sizes.

thanks thats very helpfull

I just happen to know that. The 10mm Big-Serts are 14mm by 1.5. I wouldn't use one for a head stud, but they're good for a twice pulled engine to transmission mounting stud.

JP

Found: A place that sells Case Savers
 

I cam across this when I was looking for stepped studs.
This place sells case savers http://forums.pelicanparts.com/VWHelp.com
Type in "savers" in the search field to get a link to Savers and Inserts page.
-Chris