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Your comp ratio is 8.4:1 given your numbers of 549.8 and 74.4.

THe compression ratio is the displacement Plus the comp vol all divided by the comp vol.

Thats (549.8 + 74.4)/74.4= 8.4:1

Think about it. At bdc you have the total displacement of the cylinder PLUS the compression volume all filled. At tdc you just have the compression volume. Thats why you must add the compression volume before dividing. Not only that, thats how its supposed to be calculated.

Last edited by snowman; 11-25-2005 at 09:03 PM..
Old 11-25-2005, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 89turbocabmike
Steve@rennsport where are you?

David, Steve is someone you should talk to. He has a contrary opinion to Stephen(IA) on JE's, though I was a bit heartened to hear Stephen's support of JE's as it gives me some other options to consider on my rebuild. JE is also local to me. Decisions, decisions....
Hi Mike:

LOL,...I'm reading this thread sitting on my hands with a sock in my mouth,...

Each to his/her own.
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Old 11-25-2005, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
Hi Mike:

LOL,...I'm reading this thread sitting on my hands with a sock in my mouth,...

Each to his/her own.
I know, I know, it's just that I'd like to get a true 8:1 with my EFI conversion and I've always heard that the 3.4 Mahles run below their stated 7.5:1. I'd like to also run a 3.6 crank for a little extra displacement. What about coating the skirts for more wear protection especially from stroking?

BTW, missed seeing you at GAF this year!
Old 11-25-2005, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 89turbocabmike
I know, I know, it's just that I'd like to get a true 8:1 with my EFI conversion and I've always heard that the 3.4 Mahles run below their stated 7.5:1. I'd like to also run a 3.6 crank for a little extra displacement. What about coating the skirts for more wear protection especially from stroking?

BTW, missed seeing you at GAF this year!
I'd agree that its very tough to get that with the Mahles, but there are FAR more factors at work here,....

You are correct in that Mahle's spec CR is always higher than reality, but in an air-cooled, turbocharged engine with only 4 studs per cylinder, thats not a bad thing.

Years ago, one of the monthly performance trade magazines I receive published a matrix chart showing static CR against boost pressures to show effective CR. Quite enlightening, to say the very least. This chart was done by one of the blower manufacturers to show what happens when one runs a high CR with modest boost (and don't forget that this was aimed at water-cooled engines with MUCH stiffer, better supported decks and heads).

As the old saying goes,.....Less is More,....

Make HP with airflow and a good turbocharger, not simply piling on boost & CR.

I wish I could have attended GAF, but we were really busy. Hopefully, we'll go next year as long as we aren't backed up.
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Last edited by Steve@Rennsport; 11-25-2005 at 11:13 PM..
Old 11-25-2005, 11:11 PM
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Jack, please ignore my lack of basic maths for a moment. how do i arrive at 549.8 as my displacement? my bore is 97mm and my stroke is 74.4mm. 97x74.4 is 7216.8 right?
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Old 11-26-2005, 02:29 AM
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Andy look at my working out for the volume that is correct, id just overlooked what snowman pointed out that you need to add the compression volume onto the stroke volume for final cylinder volume. As for the 74.4 bit Id just copied it down wrong as you pointed out it should have been 74 been your compression volume.

Volume of cylinder = area x height (stoke length)

Area of circle = Pi (3.141592654) * radius squared

your radius is half you bore diameter = 9.7 / 2 = 4.85

so volume = (3.141592654 x( 4.85 x 4.85)) x 7.44 = 549.8

Notice I changed the numbers from mm to cm this gives the final result in cm cubed which is equivalent to ml as this is what you are measuring you final compression volume in.


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Old 11-26-2005, 02:51 AM
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So if as you say you think you compression volume is nearer 68, then the total volume would be 617.8 this would equate to a ratio of nearly 9.1:1. However if you was right in the first place with the 74ml for compression volume it would work out at 8.43:1. Just curious what method are you using to measure you compression volume?
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Old 11-26-2005, 03:00 AM
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thanks steve. flippin maths!
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1980 SC soon to be big hp 3.3t powered 73RSR Replica (well, I'm keeping the engine but everything else is going )
Old 11-26-2005, 03:06 AM
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Quote:

[snip]

As the old saying goes,.....Less is More,....

Make HP with airflow and a good turbocharger, not simply piling on boost & CR.

[snip]

[/B]
I completely agree with this statement if the engine is going to be run at high rpm and high boost most of its life, i.e. track conditions.

However, for most of us who live on the streets, the higher CR works very well around town. With proper hardware and heat/engine management (dry lube skirts, ceramic coat domes, polish combustion chamber, proper timing and AFR's, etc), 1 bar at 8.5:1 is completely within reason and rewarding around town (especially if you are running a 930 gearbox).

Since I have EFI, I will back off the timing for DE's, even with the 8.0:1CR.
Old 11-26-2005, 07:45 PM
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steve im using snowmans method of 50/50 water antifreeze injected and measured while piston is at tdc.
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Old 11-27-2005, 03:13 AM
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Why water/antifreeze?
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Old 11-27-2005, 04:55 AM
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Antifreeze normally has anti corosion agents in it I would presume thats Y????
Old 11-27-2005, 04:58 AM
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I used #1 fuel oil, it worked well in my burette when I checked the cc of my 912 engine, also use a dial indicator to set tdc, not the pulley mark.
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by YTNUKLR
Why water/antifreeze?
I would guess because antifreeze has wetting properties?
Old 11-27-2005, 10:51 AM
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wetting and colour properties i think. its a bit of a mission trying to spot the exact point that the fluid touches the underside of the spark plug hole. the colour certainly helped me
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Old 11-27-2005, 02:11 PM
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Andy is right on, color and wetting. Any liquid could be used as it will not be there long. Oil, eg tranny fluid, is good but what a mess when you dump it back out.

I also use a syrnge, usually a 50 cc one. They are very inexpensive, accurate and in most states readily available at feed shops or out of some hobby stores or scientific supply catalogs. some come with blunted needles, some don't.

Last edited by snowman; 11-27-2005 at 04:49 PM..
Old 11-27-2005, 04:44 PM
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Steve and Andy,

I think you two are not talking about the same set of volumes....

Steve, I'm not following how you arrived at your conclusion without taking into account three separate volumes, piston dome, swept volume, and head volume. It appears you used only two, swept volume and head volume. But maybe I'm just not understanding it right.

I have posted a method on my website that remove some of the confusion. Check it out if you like. Let me know if there are any questions.

<http://members.rennlist.com/jimwms/Tech/comp_ratio.html>
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Old 11-28-2005, 03:08 PM
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Piston dome, head volume and all the little dimples in top of the piston and head are included when you measure it with the engine assembled, the piston at TDC, valves closed, sparkplug removed. The engine is placed on an engine stand, spark plug opening up and a fluid introduced into the cylinder untill it reaches the bottom of the spark plug hole. Some agitation may be required to remove any trapped air. This is the most accurate way of measuring compression I know of as you cannot overlook anything, everything is accounted for, everything is MEASURED, except the final calculation and swept volume. The number obtained by this direct measurement is V1 in your example. This method dosen't miss important things , for example the compressed head gasket thickness. Other sources of errors accounted for include differences in rod lengths, differences in compression heights of pistons, differences in crankshaft throws, differences in valve protrusion, differences in piston tops. Finally one LESS measurement is involved, reducing the possibility of error.

Please note that this is a FINAL compression check. The method you have cited would be used while the engine is apart. Its always useful to know where you will end up, and then to prove it when you get there. I have found there is often as much as a 1 cc difference in the two methods due to accumulative errors.

Last edited by snowman; 11-28-2005 at 04:00 PM..
Old 11-28-2005, 03:37 PM
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This was helpful to me: http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

If you measure it like Jack does and I did you only need to know a few things to get your CR, bore 86mm stroke 74mm and Combustion Chamber Volume In CCs 51cc you come up with 9.428 just that easy aint it!
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Last edited by cgarr; 11-28-2005 at 04:15 PM..
Old 11-28-2005, 04:05 PM
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Jack,

No doubt the method you describe is as about as accurate as you can get, if everything works as planned. The only thing not accounted for with the method I describe is the compressed head gasket. Most 911 head gaskets I have seen that have been compressed (removed from an engine that had them compressed) were flattened out even with the top of the channel they were seated in, so I can't imagine a compressed head gasket introducing much of an error. Everything else you mention is taken into account.

The only unkown with filling the combustion chamber, head on the engine, piston at TDC, engine on a stand, sparkplug hole oriented up, is whether all the air bubbles are actually gone, as one can't see inside. Even in a controlled situation,like in measuring the head volume on a bench top, where you can see through the plexiglas cover, and have a way to level it, you may have to do some slight movement to get out the last of the air.

All things considered, I guess one should use the method they are comfortable with.
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Last edited by Jim Williams; 11-28-2005 at 05:54 PM..
Old 11-28-2005, 05:45 PM
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