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Ralph
I have been off line for awhile but thanks for letting me see what's happening to my "baby"! It's a little lonely here in its' garage space but I will be filling it next week with what as my friends say is a German donorcycle (one of those on the rebound things since all the race cars will be gone by November). I would have loved to keep things going but atleast you are providing some insight in areas I wouldn't have been able to. I would have liked to see the timing process. I'm not quite sure why Neil felt it was proprietary but he never has returned my email since he got the check, so I never got that far (maybe that is why my car was purchased so quickly...a conspiracy to keep me from posting the secret details of the inner workings of this motor.....ha, ha, ha?!!). Keep up the good work. Oh, and one last photo of the sad departure as the car limped off without its hind quarters... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160335744.jpg |
VZ,
I'm sorry, but I don't have any photographs of yours/Akin's car, that was before my time...:) Most of my pics were of the engines in various states of assembly, but I have a few Dyson/Bayside/Busby/Brun/Joest images from mid'88 to '93 who were about the only teams left running cars at the end of the GTP era... Congrats on the old 962 air-cooled car still having the fastest mph and total miles run for the 12 Hours, but we both know that luck plays a major part in that, right? The number of caution periods and how long those caution periods are for usually determine that statistic. Still, it is surprising that it hasn't been broken for 20 years by the much quicker cars of today... JDM, That is actually a very good question and from what I know the answer is no. I don't believe people are building "new" 962C engines (simply because of parts scarcity) but if one wanted to would probably start with the 930 case since 962 cases are few and far between. The GT1 motor could be considered the next step or an evolution of the 956/962C motor I guess, but its parts are different and from what I know not interchangeable. A major difference right off of the top of my head (and there are undoubtedly more but I've only seen (1) GT1 motor apart and it was a few years ago) is the 956/962C had individual heads/cylinders that were electron beam welded together while the GT1 motor had (2) 1-piece heads for each bank and the heads/cylinders were not electron beam welded, but rather had a gasket between the two. This arrangement is similar to the 959 engine rather than the 956/962C. Also, the 962C had gear driven camshafts, while the GT1 went back to chain driven cams like a conventional 911 motor (also the 959). I would venture to say that the GT1 motor shares more lineage with the 959 than it does with the 956/962C. Heli, Neil's taking great care of your baby, hopefully can get it onto the dyno next week for the new owner and run it in. Neil mentioned that the guy is in somewhat of a hurry, but it looks like he has some chassis prep work ahead of him as well! I found an old pic of what I believe is your car (chassis 146) at the 1992 24 Hours. Car number was #52 with sponsorship from Team 0123 & Art Sports. Interestingly, the car was entered with a 3.0L motor while yours is definitely a 3.2L now. Drivers were Hurley Haywood, Eje Elgh, Roland Ratzenberger & Scott Brayton. Vern Schuppan was listed as a driver but DNS. The car qualified 9th on the grid (but started 11th since it was classed as a GTP car and the LM cars took priority on the grid) with a time of 1.41.900 and finished 3rd, 13 laps behind the winning Nissan R91CP LM class car. Your car was considered a long shot to win, but at least it finished! The other (2) 962C's entered that year that were contenders (from Porsche's view at least) were from Joest, and both cars failed to finish, one retiring with electrical problems and the other losing the engine... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160355304.jpg The cam timing process isn't proprietary, just what he sets them at as he doesn't necessarily time them to the factory setting...;) I'm sure there are other guys reading this thread who may dabble with a 962C engine, let them do their own homework...:) I'll let Neil know that you are trying to get ahold of him, he was busy/stressed with getting your old motor done as well as with the 904 motor that is sitting on the stand next to it... If you are interested, send me a PM with your address and I'd be happy to burn you a CD with images of your motor going back together so you have it for posterity...:) I'll post some more internal engine pics tonight after dinner and after my son goes to sleep... Ralph |
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I just found some images and info on your car from someone's site on the net, don't know how accurate the info actually is. You may or may not have already seen this... http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/models/962.htm The only race your chassis won was at Sebring, but other than the (2) 24 hour races that would be the one to win! There were alot of 962/962C's that were built that never tasted success. The March85G-Buick (Holbert had a similar car with Porsche power before the 962) in the hands of JPJ was on pole at 2:11.416 while the Akin car started 4th with a time of 2:13.843. A clean sweep that year, with Busby's 962 & Holbert's 962 finishing 2nd & 3rd. That was an accomplishment in itself as the "privateer" 962 teams had the deck stacked against them versus the "factory" Holbert team in terms of the latest engine updates and support. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160363612.jpg Kind of a grainy image, but it's definitely your car...:) Ralph |
Here are some more pics of engine number 253 going back together...
Crank, rods, oil pump & intermediate shaft resting in the case. Note the scavenging of the mag oil pump, gotta keep that oil out of the case! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160365217.jpg Notice the lightweight straight cut intermediate/lay shaft gear. Definitely not quiet! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160365455.jpg Also note that the crank hasn't been knife-edged, even though the motor can spin to 8,200 rpm... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160365477.jpg The backside of one of the Mahle 95mm pistons: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160366200.jpg Here's a shot of the pistons installed on one side of the motor. Note the gear drive housing is also fitted: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160366334.jpg That's it for tonight, arguably the hardest part of reassembly is coming up...getting the cylinders/heads/water jackets onto the motor without breaking a piston ring! Ralph |
I did some more "research" today regarding some of the history of Helidoc's old car, and found out that it raced at LeMans in 1990 & 1991 and at Daytona in 1992. I'm sure Helidoc knows all about this before he originally bought the car but I thought it would be interesting for the rest of us...
In 1990, the car was red with Takefuji as the primary sponsor and was #33. The motor was 3.0L in displacement. It was driven by Hurley Haywood, Wayne Taylor & Rickard Rydell. It qualified 27th with a time of 3:45.440 and finished 12th, 27 laps behind the winning Jaguar XJR-12 of John Nielsen, Price Cobb & Martin Brundle. If any of you ever had the pleasure of listening to the howling 7L V12, it gave you goosebumps, especially at night...:) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160447864.jpg In 1991, the car was repainted and the number changed to 53 while the motor remained a 3.0L. It was raced under the Schuppan/Team Salamin Primagaz banner and was driven by James Weaver (one of the quickest 962 drivers there was), Hurley Haywood and Wayne Taylor. The car was only 29th quickest in qualifying with a time of 3:55.706 and started 33rd due to the class structuring. Unfortunately, it DNF'ed and was 46 laps down at the end to the winning (and surprising) rotary powered Mazda 787B of Volker Weidler, Johnny Herbert & Bertrand Gachot. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160448152.jpg I already gave some info about the 1992 24 Hours of Daytona previously. Here's the same pic as before: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160448327.jpg Geez, I hope that I'm talking about the right car...:) Ralph |
Here are some more pics of the engine going together...
One bank of cylinders/heads in their water jackets but without the inlet & outlet water pipes installed: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160448809.jpg One bank installed (looking at the intake side) along with one of the cam housings: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449116.jpg Side view before the cams are installed: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449188.jpg View from the exhaust side: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449270.jpg Straight on view into the cam housing: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449420.jpg One more side shot with the oil filter housing (easy to change the filter right now, eh?): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449544.jpg On to the next post...:) Ralph |
Here's a few more...
One pair of intake & exhaust cams installed in a cam housing. Notice the straight cut idler gears meshing with an intermediate gear. No chains in this motor and the gears make it sound like an out of tune sewing machine imo...:) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449801.jpg Just another note to mention, the valve shims that are available range in thickness from 1.50mm all the way to 3.20mm. Oops! I've gotten this all backwards (I'm just posting Neil's images consecutively, I guess I should have planned a little better), here is the assembly on the bench before going on the motor: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160449918.jpg Heads with valves & springs installed (looking from the exhaust side), just waiting for the cam housings... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160450115.jpg Side view (before the gear housings are installed): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160450180.jpg Also notice that the hole where the 930 distributor would normally reside is now capped off... Here's a view from the intake side of the motor of the heads with the valves/springs ready to go: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160450403.jpg Side view of the same: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160450706.jpg One more post with the last of the pics I have at present... Ralph |
Okay, the last of them for now...:)
Another pic of a cam housing on the bench with a pair of cams... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160450926.jpg Alot of M8 nuts and washers on this engine, eh? Also notice the red, rubber mallet in the background? A race engine builder's best friend, if something doesn't fit, simply beat the hell out of it until it does...I'm just kidding :) Cam housing looks a bit naked without the rest of the valvetrain, doesn't it? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160451230.jpg Close-up view of a pair of cams with idler gears installed and just barely making out one of the intermediate gears that helps make it all work... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160451348.jpg One last view from the underside peering into the exhaust ports: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160451558.jpg Looking down from where a gear housing will soon reside with a glimpse of the intermediate shaft and an oil scavenge. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160451708.jpg That's it for now everyone, hopefully I'll have a few more in the coming days along with some video and sound clips on the dyno at some point...:) Just to warn those of you who haven't heard a C motor before, they are a real let down. They sound real dull and blah and one would never know they are a race engine making gobs of power. The sound clips will be anticlimatic for many...;) Ralph |
Dude...
Sweet... |
nice work Dr. Ralph!! You are an expert story teller and photographer...keep-er goin'
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Man those cam boxes are quite extraordinary!
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jeepers... how did i miss this thread in the first place? awesome. can't wait to sit at home and do some reading :D
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Thanks Ralph!!!!!
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It is amazing how similar this engine is to the GT2/3/Turbo engine in the latest 911 cars.
Siamese the 3 cylinder heads per side to a single piece, change the cam drive to chains, change the oil pump and you pretty much have it don't you? |
I can't wait for the dyno footage!
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After having been out of the country for a couple of weeks, I'm catching up on the progress. Nice job Ralph! It's almost like you've done this motor build documentation thing before...;)
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Just a little update and sorry to get all of your hopes up (as in putting this thread back to the top so there must be some new info) but still waiting for the wiring harness from the car to arrive so can dyno...:)
Attempts to get a harness and/or dyno at PMNA were rebuffed...:( It should be arriving shortly, but you'll just have to sit tight for a while longer...:) Ralph |
If PMNA won't play, how about taking it to Jerry Wood's shop for a dyno run?
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The only reason why PMNA was in the mix is because they already have everything set-up for the Motronic 1.7 management. It would have been quick and easy...:) Rebuffed probably isn't the correct term, the money quoted was absurd (even by 962 standards) which basically says not interested unless we pillage...:( The harness will get here in due course and the project finished up...:) Ralph |
I have an extra wiring harness if you need to use one. When PMNA rebuilt my motor standard operating procedure was to put all new parts in the motor... even if the parts were still good.... and to put a new harness on it. It is for an air car so maybe they are different but I would be happy to send it to you if it helps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...p/DSC02176.jpg |
Why is it that despite the fact that they have some nice people working there, PMNA is so user unfriendly. The only thing that seems to get their attention is the dollar. I guess the frustrations I had with them are showing and since I don't own any more Porsches I can voice my thoughts without fear of getting totally cut off.
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Ralph |
I figured they were different but still thought I would offer just in case.
Well the same person who bought that car (Helidoc's) contacted me about buying mine.... it seems 962's are getting hot. I even had an inquiry from England and was surprised because I would figure the C cars would be the ticket there but the response was that my 962 won a World Endurance Championship race (Sebring 1986) and that is why the guy wanted it.... it is amazing how these people are seeking me out for this 962. They are very cool cars and it is some what surprising that they are cheaper than a 935 right now... personally I don't think that will last much longer. |
Wow, what a great thread ... thanks for all your efforts in continuing the story Ralph!
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that is slick, can't wait to see the finished product
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I had not read this post for a while (BTW bad a** 962).
I had read a prior post about the high price of the 935s and I knew what 962s were going for in Florida, but VZ935s clarification that he doesnt expect it to be like it is always helps understand. I have to read this thread again. These motors scream. Have you guys seen "In Car 956 with Derek Bell'? video. |
This past weekend at Sebring for HSR the 962s were SCREAMING. Must be very fun ride!
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I've got pictures of that Sebring race, and the earlier Daytona race that year, which include many of Aiken's 5 and of "the last 935". I'll have to unpack them go thru and scan. I went to Daytona and Sebring in 85, 86 and 87. It was really special seeing the last of the 935's run in 85. |
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The easy way to tell my car from the other Coca~Cola 962's is mine has a silver rear wing vs 962-102 that had a red rear wing.. other than that the ccar had a black wing in 1987 when it was co sponsored with Yokohama...like this at Daytona in 1987 .. <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/962%20113/scan0003.jpg"> Car not only won Sebring it set the record for average MPH and distance covered.... and it did it with only three wheels :) |
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giving this thread a:
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1894/bumpjs0.jpg Any updates? Did the engine ever make it to the dyno? Any footage and/or sound clips? |
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Sorry for the long delay in posting, the C motor started up and ran for the first time this afternoon. The main reason for the long delay was that the ECU was kaput and had to be sent back to Bosch in Germany, where it has sat for the last 6 months. Wiring up this motor for the dyno has also been a major challenge for Neil, as the antiquated Bosch electronics are not the easiest to deal with. For other 962C customers, Neil uses his own electronics (for more power, drivability and tuning capability) but this customer wants the motor as original as possible for resale purposes. Neil and I finished up the odds and ends this afternoon, starting with making sure the motor had full throttle and a small adjustment to the cable and locating bracket was made. When the motor was first turned over to generate some oil pressure, we had minor oil weaping from the scavenge pump that was quickly tended to, then a minor fuel leak due to a bad fitting and finally a massive water leak due to a bad sealing o-ring used in one of the wiggins clamps. Fortunately, a speed shop is just a hop, skip and jump away and we were able to source replacement parts. The motor made 90 psi of oil pressure before the plugs were installed and the motor fired right up. The motor was set to 3,000-3,500 rpm to ensure adequate oiling during this initial run-in process. The oil temps rose quickly and were soon at 200° which is too high for the motor at this point. Luckily, just down the street is another shop that offers the nice Setrab coolers so we found the biggest one we could for -12 fittings and plumbed it in (sticking the cooler in a bucket of ice water). Unfortunately, we had intended to dyno the motor without the water t-stats installed so as to not cause any confusion with the dyno's t-stat in the water tower but we were getting a vast water temp difference from one bank to the other. So, to not risk cracking a cylinder during power runs, the t-stats are going back in tomorrow morning and we will than do the run-in and power runs, both with the inlet restrictors as well as without if we have the time. Here are some pics: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203323.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203354.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203382.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203412.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203435.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186203459.jpg Note the "trick" chain and straps to support the turbo/wastegate assembly. At Andial, we had fabricated aluminum "tables" that the assembly could rest on for support as the dyno was only used for these motors and so it was fairly easy to take the motors on and off. This dyno is used primarily for V8 powerplants so a little bit of McGyverism was implemented. Anyone want to venture a guess as to the power output? I will let slip that the motor will not run with high boost pressures as they are not required for this application. The most boost I ever saw in a C motor was 1.8 bar but this motor will run in the 1 to 1.4 max range. Bear in mind the inlet restrictors also when making your guess... Jeff Alton, if you happen to read this sometime soon please send me an email as I had some computer problems and somehow lost your email address. I have some good news regarding what we discussed about when we were at the pub last week...;) Tim (Helidoc), if you are still viewing this I will finish up burning the CD of all the images for you this weekend and get it off to the address that you provided earlier. Ralph |
At 1.4 I will say 740hp Assuming it has the k36 and not a short track 33 on it.
Yeah , B likes his stuff bone stock . I have had the same problem with Bosch in Germany. It took them 8 months to do a CD box for me. I thank my stars I had two extras. |
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The main reason why the switch was made for IMSA racing is that you couldn't get any factory support from KKK. You literally had to buy the preferred application from them (or Porsche Weissach) and were told "good luck" whereas Garret was just up the freeway a bit and they were happy to come down and provide technical help. It made for a much smoother partnership... Ralph |
Ralph, thanks for the update as I haven't heard anything for many months and now I know why. I also wonder what was wrong with the ecu and if it had been something that exsisted when I was driving the car. Hopefully it just needed a new battery. I think all the viewers of this forum can appreciate how much effort goes into keeping these older high tech cars (for the era) going. Deep pockets and much patience are required. If you don't have my address PM me and I will appreciate getting the cd.
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Well, the run-in and a few power runs are finally over so the motor will be taken off on Monday for the after-dyno service. Neil will just have to change one of the turbo scavenge pump gaskets as it had a slight weep but other than that the motor is dry. The water pumps are notorius for leaking but they are bone dry which is a good sign.
The motor in this configuration made 679 SAE horsepower at 7,900 rpm at 1.2 bar without restrictors. These particular Garret turbos are too small for huge horsepower numbers (these were used for a temporary street circuits where top-end horsepower is irrelevant) as the motor was gasping for air (even with the restrictors removed) over 5,000 rpm and one can say the motor pretty much outruns these turbos. Torque was 518 ft/lbs at 6,100 rpm so it gives one an idea as to how narrow a powerband these motors have. There was also no reason to raise the boost any more than 1.2 bar as the power levels are plenty for the intended use of the car and there was no reason to try and hurt the motor by raising the boost to 1.4 or above. More concern was paid to what the horsepower/torque numbers were at 5,000 rpm before the turbo configuration comes into play and they are consistent with the Andial dyno plot from 1991. Also bear in mind that the numbers given above are SAE, not in Nm and PS. I think the Andial dyno info from 1991 for engine AN253 was posted earlier in this thread and those numbers are in Nm for torque and PS for horsepower. I believe the conversion from SAE to PS is 1.013 and ft/lbs to Nm is 1.356 so you can calculate the new numbers in metric. The turbos, wastegates, fuel octane and inlet system was also different than what was used in 1991 so you really can't compare the absolute numbers too much. Here are some more pics: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186288941.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186288981.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289008.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289054.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289079.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289105.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289146.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289169.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289202.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1186289258.jpg That's about it for pics, I asked another Pelican (Chris or 84Porsche) if he wanted to come watch and maybe shoot some video and soundclips for you guys and he welcomed the opportunity. Hopefully he got some good video and sound clips. He is going to edit it and put it on YouTube in the near future. I'm sure he'll come on here and notify you guys when he has a link up. Ralph |
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Ralph, Thanks again, that was an awesome experience. The uploaded quality is a little less than I had hoped for but I can mail you a DVD if you would like. Chris |
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