Rebuilding a 962 motor
 

I have a Porsche 962 that I bought about 10 years ago and restored completely except for the motor which had about 4 hours on it. i ran the car for about 20 hrs in club events and then moth balled the car for about 6 or 7 years now. Since I have a little time this winter I have debated about going through the car again but this time feel that I will have to rebuild the motor. It is a later water cooled engine in which the head and cylinders are a single part so I know it has some differences with the standard 911 motor. However I think it would be a fun project that I am willing to tackle. Has anyone out there on this forum rebuilt one and have any thoughts, tips or good resources (other than your crazy to do it or let a professional do it - with quotes from $35,000 to $135,000 I am willing to take some risks).

WOW! I love the 962. If you are comfortable doing it...go for ! And please, please document the project and share the experience.

You are required to post a large amount of pics and document your adventure completely....as often as possible....... :)....I recommend daily.

Re: Rebuilding a 962 motor
 

Where in California are you? I may be able to assist you.

Ralph

Helidoc, You have uttered words I have dreamed of saying,.....By all means go for it. It is yours do not let some once else get the pleasure, and then ring it out .

I am in the central valley. Usually when I restore or rebuild a car I take lots of digital pictures otherwise I can't remember everything. I will try and post pictures as I proceed. I do want to talk to somebody first though to get a beeter idea of what I am up against. I know it is not rocket science, but every car machine has its own little idiosyncracies and gocha's that are nice to know about before they are going to happen. I was hoping to touch base with someone that doesn't feel like this knowledge is a trade secret and wouldn't mind me picking their brain a little.

Helidoc,
Jerry Woods has rebuilt a lot of these. I have seen them in his shop. Jerry is a good guy and would probably let you pick his brain. You just need to bet by his shop manager Richard.

Paul Weir in Wash has build one from parts. I don't think is was water cooled. Actually he build two. He has a lot of parts for them. Paul is a friendly guy and will talk to you.

Do it your self. That way no one will take any short cuts. If you rebuild you know it was done right. That is a important consideration when you are paying someone else to work on your car. You just never know.

Don

It would be my pleasure to assist you in any way I can.

The 3 most prolific 962C engine builders in the United States are Eric Bloss at Porsche Motorsport (he's the one rebuilding them for HSR if the motor is sent there) in Santa Ana, Steve Becker at B. Precise Machining (former shop foreman at Porsche Motorsport who oversaw the majority of them during the GTP/Group C era) in Laguna Hills and Neil Harvey at Performance Developments in Costa Mesa (former Porsche Motorsports electronics guru who now runs his own business that competes against Porsche Motorsport for 962 rebuilds).

If you want to rebuild it yourself, by all means go for it. But, I would at least talk to one or all three before/during the rebuild as these guys build them in their sleep and have LOTS of experience. I'm sure you've already been quoted by Porsche Motorsport and quite possibly Neil as well. Other engine builders may have built a few here or there over the years, but these guys have built dozens and dozens.

If you need me to, I will be happy to ask them any questions you have on a personal rather than professional level. I also have the 962C engine parts catalog for 1991 & 1992 motors if you need part numbers and such.

Ralph

Thanks for all your leads and offers to help. I probably will take you up on your offer regarding the parts book if the book I have doesn't cover everything. I also don't understand German very well only having taken one or two years of it a long time ago in high school. Some things are translated in the factory manual and others are not. I think I have talked to Eric in the past when I was getting parts for the car with the first restoration. At that time I think it was a combination of Andial and Porsche Motorsports. Someone else had mentioned Neil Harvey to me in passing as one who might do the motor for a better price than others. I have dealt with Jerry in the past as he had originally been the crew chief on the car when it ran in Daytona and he has also rebuilt a GT4 motor for me. When I was thinking of rebuilding it a few years back he didn't seem too interested and had suggested sending it to Porsche Motorsports. I guess I just need to fight inertia, get things going and tackle things as they come up.

Also of note, I would be interested in what parts are shared with which other 911 motors so if any of you have knowledge of this I would appreciate it if you can pass it on.

Helidoc,

What car/motor do you have? Is the motor a 3.0L or 3.2L? Do you know the Andial engine number (I'm assuming it was/is an Andial motor) since they were the only ones that I know of on this side of the pond building the water-cooled versions for Bayside, Dyson, Busby, Dauer, Moretti, Brun, etc. Joest was having his built by the factory in Germany and not by Andial.

Wow, all the old names pop up from one of Porsche's greatest era's. Up until the total domination of the Audi R8, I thought the 962/962C would go down as the ultimate race car in terms of wins & long-term competitiveness.

Let me know if you want me to make you copies of the engine parts book, it's got pics as well.

I know that Neil is making his own heads/cylinders for the motor rather than using Porsche's, BUT I have HEARD (operative word) of a few motors going south so I would look a little deeper into this if that is what you are considering.

Ralph

I think it is a 3.2 liter motor and I will have to see if I can find an Andial number on it. I believe that is where it was rebuilt last.

helidoc, are you a helicopter mechanic? I look forward to seeing what happens here.

No, not by trade but do help the mechanic work on mine. I like to know what's going on whether flying in the air or close to the ground!

can we get pics of this car up soon? Thanks.

962C engine rebuild
 

helidoc, I have many engine parts and parts information for 962C engines available (as well as 962 IMSA and 935 engine parts) and may be able to help. I also have full Porsche 911-930-935-962-964 engine rebuilding and machine work services available.

Paul Weir Porsche Engine Expert

1411 172nd ST NE
Arlington, WA 98223

tel & fax 360-652-5962

962C engine rebuild
 

helidoc, I have many engine parts and parts information for 962C engines available (as well as 962 IMSA and 935 engine parts) and may be able to help. I also have full Porsche 911-930-935-962-964 engine rebuilding and machine work services available.

Paul Weir Porsche Engine Expert

1411 172nd ST NE
Arlington, WA 98223

tel & fax 360-652-5962

Count me in too, for help, if I can be of any...

-Wayne

Thanks Henry, Its good to be back! I hope things are going well for you.

hallo
If you need help with translation , or Parts from Germany , let me know .
harald

Wow - all the heavy hitters in this thread - helidoc - these guys could probably walk you through a 962 and a 959 rebuild then out for pizza and beer.

Thanks guys for your interest. It shouldn't be too long and I will get started. I have just recieved Wayne's book and cd and I am reading it in preparation for the big event. The car has been stored for awhile and the biggest impairment to beginning is to push it into my shop area to get started, no small feat in itself with the differential causing the rear wheels to resist forward motion with the slighted turn of the front wheels. I only have my teeenage son around to help me. I will then have to figure out how to attach pictures to my posts so you can see my progress and perhaps answer questions that will certainly arise.

Sounds like a great project and it would appear you've got all the resources you will need just by the responses to this thread.

Best of luck on your journey and I look forward to the details and pictures to come.

I believe I can help you with this. Start the car. Head down the drive to the closest street take you first right . Accelerate down the street to the second right. In order to get the car up to temperature, I would suggest the first long straight away, you bring the car to full song in each gear. Remember to check your mirrors as often as possible. Now return to your driveway and as you approach, try your best to maintain a steady speed right up to the last second. This will allow you the opportunity to do a final test on those breaks. Now that it is warm you should be able to drive right where you want it.
If all this seems beyond your experience level, give me a call I'll hop on a plane and show you this technique for proper 962 garage positioning.
Cheers

Seriously, in sounds like you need a set of rollers. A narrow set of tyres with a tall aspect ratio that will give you higher ground clearance and a small footprint so maneuvering that beast would be easier. With roller you can also save that valuable race rubber when storing the car.

It always has amazed me how much interest this car generates. Well...all your interest has motivated me to get going. I finally moved the car into the shop this morning and took some pictures. The digital camera was not really around for the average consumer when I last rebuilt this car and it really makes life so much easier when doing a restoration. I took 90 pictures already without batting an eye. I will try to post a few. Enjoy and please post your thoughts and suggestions.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131215986.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131216107.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131216189.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131216323.jpg

It always has amazed me how much interest this car generates

Helidoc, other than the 917 and 935 that I missed the heyday of at the track, the 962 was the car I oogled in the pits and on the track at Limerock as a young lad. I can't think of a cooler race car. Thanks for sharing with us here on Pelican:)

Looks like an Andial motor to me, the old "Prepared by Andial" sticker on the left intake plenum is a dead giveaway.:)

Wait until you have the motor out of the car and see how many people confuse the water pumps for turbochargers.:rolleyes:

It was amazing how often this happened at Andial when giving shop tours to visitors or during an open house. I guess they do have the familiar snail shape to them but...

What team/owner/driver ran this car in GTP/Group C? I don't recognize the livery (especially with the rear deck off).

I can't tell from the pics, but do you know if they are factory headers or Reid Washbon's?

Ralph

Nice, care to comment on your experience you have had in the car?

Here is a what comes to my mind: Don't touch it and ship it straight to my garage :D :D :D :D :D What else can I say. I hope you have your digital camera fully charged every time you work on it going forward. I can't wait to see more pictures.

Ingo

Well guys, not much else was done on the car today other than pondering where I will start. First thing I need to do is get it up in the air so I can work on it and get the rear diffuser off as well as the tires and rear suspension. To answer your questions, I am not sure who did the exhaust system. I will post some pictures of it later and maybe you can tell me. The car is Porsche 962-146, an ex-Vern Schupaan livery. I ran Le Mans a couple of times in 1990 and 1991 I believe as well as some event in Japan and finally in the 24 hours of Daytona before it retired. My experience with the car has been fun and I have put about 20 hours on it with West Coast PCA, SCCA Vintage, and GGR Porsche Club events. I only had one mechanical failure during the time I ran it, a leaky water pump. The things that have impressed me most about the car have been the amazing brakes and road holding. Despite all the horse power, the acceleration, while strong, was not all that exciting (the transmission is really set up for endurance races not dragging!). The West Coast tracks are really to short to take full advantage of the car. Despite my limited racing abilities the car always ran the pole to the end of the race. That was nice but the lack of competition took away some of the fun and I wish I had the opportunity to run against some other 962's. After about 3 years I just parked the car and only have pushed it to a couple of concourses fearing the motor might let go. I have hear rumors that the heads on these things only last 100 hours and then start cracking so I have been basically afraid to run it until I know their status. I built up a GT4 car but it wasn't the same so sold it after running it twice and moved on to club racing with Formula Mazda. I tried Formula Atlantics for a couple of years but it required so much time and work to get to the race that it burned me out and I went back to Formula Mazda, which are relatively inexpensive, easy to work on, and require a minimum of effort. Lately I have been concerned about the 962 because of the concern of corrosion from the water system and thought it was time to get the old girl back into shape. Then I'll either run it in vintage or sell it and let someone else have some fun with it.

Ahh, that makes some sense. Schuppan didn't do much in IMSA GTP, but he was running cars in Japan for many years. Schuppan and Trust were both having their motors built at Andial. That series was where Eddie Irvine (remember him?) also was plying his trade in relative obscurity before the F1 gig a few years later. Schuppan also was the originator for the 962 road car before he ran out of money with I believe only a car or two ever built. Lots of air-cooled 962 engines on stands at Andial (with A/C components!!!) in various states of assembly when the well went dry.

A Nissan GTP-ZXT has been for sale for months in Autoweek (which if I recall included a spare Pink motor), perhaps that car would provide some better competition?:) That car was nearly impossible to beat with Geoff Brabham behind the wheel in the late '80s.

Ralph

P.S. - You must be the most popular guy in the neighborhood when you roll it out of the garage into the driveway to clean it.:)

I have an andial 962 motor in my 935...here is what my engine number looks like for reference..good luck with the project. You may want to call Dieter at Andial once you get the engine number. He had all the paperwork on my motor going back over 20 years.Kind of nice to have , you can see what has been done to the motor over time.
Paul, still looking for some ti axles

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...O/DSC01149.jpg

If you do run into any problems just give the guys at Motor Miester a call. I'm sure they have restored lots of these engines, and everyone can be custom done to your own specifications.
Sorry but looking at that beautiful piece of work I couldn't resist
Looking forward to following the project
Steve

Helidoc,

As you heard from one of your other sources, the heads/cylinders can and do crack at the bottom where the weld joins the two, causing an obvious water leak, but I'm not sure how accurate the 100 hour figure is. A typical 962C engine rebuild was at 25-30 hours during the GTP days and although cracks weren't usually seen at these hours, the parts were always zyglo'd to make sure. I would make sure that you do this process (I'm sure you already know this but others reading may not be aware) if you plan on retaining the heads/cylinders and not discarding them in favor of new Porsche units or Neil's creation. In fact, it is probably prudent for new units as well just for insurance.

Also, there were a few different camshaft profiles available for these 4-valve, 4-cam motors. Camshafts for the endurance races such as Daytona, Sebring, LeMans, etc were generally changed for fuel economy (along with the boost being lowered) and different profiles installed for the "sprint races". The cam profiles and boost levels were essentially the only difference between an endurance motor and a motor prepared for a 3 hour race. Eric at PMNA can probably still get you the profile you need/want (depending on what you have inside now and if you wish to change) and its possible that Neil at Performance Developments might have some of his own profiles as well.

If you are interested in checking the cams to see what you have, send them to me and I would be happy to put them on the cam doctor for you.:)

I'm not sure that Dieter at Andial would have your engine information, as he was running the road side and the 962C motors were all built on the race side under the direction of Alwin Springer. I guess it is possible that the records were transferred to Dieter/Arnold when Andial's race side was morphed into Porsche Motorsport but I would think that PMNA would have the records. I may be able to help you there if you encounter some difficulty in obtaining them.

Ralph

Well guys, I made some progress tonight. To bad I have a day job because I only had a couple of hours to work on it. That is what it took for my son and I to get the car up on supports, remove the tires and lower rear a-arms and the diffuser. It is a far cry from the 22 minutes to remove a motor I think I read Henry achieved in removing a complete motor from a 911 on another thread. The diffuser is a rather bulky and cumbersome piece that is difficult to remove. It was good to have my son around to help. Funny how this car seems to be a family affair. The last time my brother helped me take it apart and I was keeping an eye out to make sure my "little boy" didn't wander into the garage and get either hurt or dirty.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131427987.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131428101.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131428348.jpg
Maybe someone can give me some more insight as to the motor on this car. Ie., did it share heritage with the 930 turbo motor. Here is a picture of the part number on the case.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131428705.jpg Does anyone know if it aluminum or magnesium? Also while I am thinking about it has anyone ever removed a fuel cell on a 962......any tips. I want to have mine taken out for testing after I get the motor out.

It looks like aluminum. Porsche pretty much stopped using magnesium for cases when it built the first Turbo. I don't think there ever was a Turbo built on a mag case.

Your case looks just like an 80's Carrera 3.2/3.3 Turbo case only with plugs for the oil return tubes. The case on my 87' 3.2 is a 930.101.104.5R on the right side and 930.101.103.6R on the left side so they must be very similar. Of course that's where the similarities ends unfortunently for me.

I doubt I'll ever to get a chance to work on one of those cars let alone ever drive one in my life. Your a lucky man.

Thanks for sharing.

If I remember correctly, the 3.0L RSRs used an aluminum case in 1974...

-Wayne

They are aluminum cases and I guess could be referred to as "cousins" of the 3.0/3.2/3.3 cases.

A few differences (and there are more that I can't recall right now) to note:

1. The 962C case has o-ring grooves for the cylinders

2. The 962 cases have modified chain housing decks. This is because the 962C uses gears rather than chains.

3. The "cradle" on the case is machined down as there is no longer a fan necessary.

:)

Ralph