Convince me please.....

[Jeff Alton]

All you guys who have programmable ECU's, can you convince me they are not tooooooooo hard to program? I really want to finish my motor off with Jenveys and a quality ecu. But, I am leaning towards PMO's becuase I KNOW how to adjust them. I have never tuned a car with my laptop.

Anyone have any real experience with the Autronic auto-tune feature?? I heard that it may not be all it is cracked up to be.

Basically, I want my motor to be like the rest of the car, ie. best of everything. But, I am a chicken $hit about forging new ground with ecu tuning!

Cheers

[Porschekid962]

Jeff, where have you heard it isnt all its cracked up to be? I never understood it to be better than hours of dyno time with an experienced tuner but in terms of getting oddball motor configurations running I havent heard anything bad. As far as sitting down in front of a computer and plugging in numbers that has to be done at some point. Check out the autronic page and see if any dealers are near you and would head to a dyno to help you set it up.

FWIW I have read plenty of pages from Aussie tuners sites, import sites and so on. The only problem I have come across, if you tune your car or others a lot is what type of 02 sensor to use in conjunction with the ECU. For an end user that wants to set up his car once and get on with it, most of them report getting within 3% of their spec'd AFR #s and others say within 1/2 of 1%. This is with entering a number into one cell in the map for each rpm point, I find that very impressive.

I would like to know where you heard that the autotune isnt all that its cracked up to be and what was said about it.

Anyways, best of luck to you and at the end of the day if this seems too daunting or begins falling into the law of dimishing returns then go with what your comfy with. We went this route because mfi was out, cis is long gone and carbs seemed too much of a hassle for something driven on an almost daily basis.

[Jeff Alton]

I honestly can't remember, but I think it may have been on the forums here. Remember, I know nothing about this stuff. I am pretty sure it was a comment from someone here. But hey, who knows, maybe they have a preference for another system.

When are you going to be up and running?? I would love to hear some first hand info from someone! I appreciate all of the info you have given me, and from what I have learned so far, the Autronic is a great system. But hey, maybe I just need to step out of my comfort zone a little!

Cheers

[Porschekid962]

From doing reading, looking at manuals, drawing wiring diagrams, figuring out what sensors to use and all the little stuff, building a motor, programming the ecu really begins to look easy. We think building a porsche motor is simple because we are familiar with it and have done it once or multiple times. I grew up with computers, this stuff really doesnt scare me, I wont be soldering up circuit boards or writing software.

Basically all I am doing is plugging stuff together, punching in numbers and hoping I dont grenade the motor. I really think that the wiring is one of the most difficult parts, just making sure everything is connected properly and protected from grime and heat is my biggest concern.

I havent seen much on this forum in regards to Autronic products, for some reason everyone thinks Motec is the only performance option which I think is horse dung. Just because an engine builder from the golden era of porsche turbo racing uses it and some other guy wrote a book mentioning it everyone hails it as gold. I grew up with Porsche at home but all my buddies had japanese imports. FWIW my quasi cousin has one of the fastest Supras on the west coast, twin turbo, all this and that, 1000+hp.

Anyways there are tons, tons, of decent, good and excellent ECU's available on the market today.
Motec
DTA
Autronic
EFI Technology (nice stuff!)
McLaren
Electromotive
SDS EFI megasquirt whatever it is
Haltech
AEM
EMS
F.A.S.T.
I am sure there are more but these come to mind. The sole reason for choosing the Autronic over similarly capable ecu's was not price, looks or cool factor but simply autotune. Unless you are hip to all this efi stuff the SDS looks a bit too involved for a first timer. Plunking in numbers in a computer hooked up to the brain controlling the motor you just poured plenty of money into and time building not knowing how things are going to work doesnt sit well with me.

I am still waiting for delivery of my Jenvey throttle bodies but that should be this week or early next. Then everything is off to the machine shop and while that is happening hopefully the ecu and parts will get here so I can start the wiring process and putting the fuel system in. Once its all built and popped in the car the moment of truth comes when I tell myself I programmed all the injectors and sensors and coilpacks and ignitors and all that properly so lets see if it cranks........

I will post plenty of pics as this gathers speed so no worries.

Best of luck

[PJMARKOW]

I have the new EMS ECU on my 1977 turbo and it is a breeze to tune. You MUST ensure that all the sensors, injectors and your ignition are working correctly. I had problems with cheap injectors, and that was fixed by buying a set of Seimens. The EMS has the auto tune feature as well as logging. You will have to get your full throttle settings done on a dyno. I did this as there was just nowhere safe to do it properly on the road. I set my cruise/part throttle using the logging and auto tune. You can get pretty damn close to the AFR's you want very quickly. You will need to fiddle with the idle, cold start and warm up to get it starting and idling nicely from cold, but you can do that progessively as the weather changes. You need to know what AFR's to aim for. I set my cruise to between 13.7 and 14.2. Full throttle will need to be around 12.5 or so for a normally aspirated engine, and around 12.2 to 11.9 for a turbo. Depends a lot on compression ratio, boost etc. Timing is best set on the dyno as well, as it's easier to monitor detonation, and you can watch for it at peak torque. The EMS uses a lamba sensor specific to the ECU. It;'s a Bosch 4 wire job. Tuning with a good ECU is just so much fun, and you can really get results quite quickly. Good luck.

[David]

My only real experience EFI tuning is from going to the EFI101 course. But from this and my experience setting up my EFI system, I believe the tuning is a breeze. Setting up the EFI is another story. I wouldn't mess with any auto-tune software. Just schedule a few hours on a dyno with someone familar with you're ECU and you're set except for maybe another check on the dyno when the weather has change significantly. You must tune it on a dyno or you're wasting your time, money, and maybe your engine.

[Porschekid962]

David, I totally agree that at some point you must get it on a dyno. I just wanted to be able to crank it over once finished and make sure everything was ok. Start and idle with Alpha-N then switch over to mapbased (autotuned as well) at a prescribed rpm/load point.

I took a look at the efi 101 site and thought about their course but the motor will be done before the next time they come around. Anyways when you start with a totally blank slate how would you start to enter numbers into the fuel and ignition maps? Im running the whole enchilada so no dizzy to make things a bit simpler.

I realize that in order to accomplish WOT runs there really is no place for that on the street so a dyno comes into play at some point. Plus a once over of the numbers by a pro would be reassuring. OTOH I have read plenty of testimonials saying how well the autotune works and just a minimal readjust was needed once on a dyno.

[ChrisBennet]

Jeff,
Have you considered that going with EFI would give you some professionally valuable experience? I.e. you could set your customer's up with EFI once you're learned on your own car.
-Chris

[cnavarro]

Jeff, the first ecu I used back in 2000 was an Autronic with the autotune. Aside from it's inability to auto tune at idle, it worked great. We never were able to get the under-run to work properly. It is very important to lock areas in the map that you know are right, because it has a bad habit of messing things up that are fine. Our biggest problems were exhaust leaks- we were running one of the first Tangerine systems on a 914 and the slip joints didn't help with exhaust leaks that kept messing up the tuning. Secondly, we were using a hand laid fiberglass plenum for a single throttle body setup that was meant to be a mockup that ended up going into the car that developed intake leaks. Trust me, if you have everything mechanically sound you'll be able to figure out how to tune it.

The other system that I have experience with is the SDS, and to be honest, it's a value for the money and is easier to tune, even without the auto tune feature and doesn't require a laptop. The hand-held programming unit is very simple and fool proof. I have had customers who have never tuned fuel injection and have been able to use the SDS.

[David]

I'd recommend buying the ECU from someone who's programmed one for the same model as your car. They can give you a conservative program that will get you up and running so you can start the engine and do the break in. You'd just need to get on the dyno before you really get on it.

With info from the EFI101 course or books, you could safely program your ECU well enough to get it up and running.

[dean]

Hi Jeff,

Comeon, don't be a weenie. I had never installed or tuned EFI before I started. I have tuned carbs though. Tuning carbs sucks compared with EFI. I found that the wiring was the hardest to do. I have rewired a complete car one time so I know how to wire. But the EFI was harder. Not too hard though cause I did it and it worked fine.

So buy the EFI. It is by far the coolest thing on a car beside a turbo.

I got a map with my EFI for a motor that was close to mine. The map was so far off that the motor wouldn't run. So you have to be careful getting a map from someone. You can look at the map and make the whole thing richer and be safe to get started.

EFI for me has been a great exp.

Oh yea one downside to EFI is that my craptop took a ***** today and is in the shop. So no tuning for me.

[Jeff Alton]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
Jeff,
Have you considered that going with EFI would give you some professionally valuable experience? I.e. you could set your customer's up with EFI once you're learned on your own car.
-Chris

Well, I have thought about that, but I need to get real good at it before I would start on someone elses car. It does open another door for me though that is for sure. But I would want to make sure I got real familiar with a one system that had wide appeal for lots of different applications.

Dean, ya I am being a weenie!! Not sure why, just am.

Charles, I have looked at the SDS and like there simple stuff, plus they are only one province over from me! But, I emailed with them about a year ago and they *sort of* steered me away from there stuff due to the weak vacuum signal created by the cams and the ITB's..... However, RLJ, on this form is running SDS in "Iris" and seems happy with it. I did talk with him at length about it.

TimT who we all see on here a fair bit seems really knowledgeable with the Haltech stuff. He has in the past volunteered tons of info and answered a lot of my question about it.

Okay, should one do the whole deal including ignition? Or is it okay to run one of those trick 12 plug distributors. Or is that just asking for a clutter problem and too many systems?

Thanks agian, once again I am getting really good info from the boards, maybe I should listen this time!!

Cheers

[Porschekid962]

Jeff, I would say if you are going to jump in do it with both feet. After you have the fuel side going you are more than likely going to want to go ahead and to the ignition. The price of a custom 12 plug dizzy setup is the same and/or more than the electronic setup depending on how many parts you have to start with.

FWIW I am using 6 bosch coils that fire 2 plugs apiece. On top of this I am utilizing 6 Bosch ingitor control modules which allow me to control each spark plug individually hence no waste fire spark or batch firing. I am also going with the smaller 12mm plug on the exhaust side for two reasons, less material loss in the head for a lower compression loss hit and AFAIK all the older twin plug porsche motors were setup this way.

Charles, I got your cylinders in the mail this week, awesome stuff!! When you setup the efi did you think of using Alpha-N mode for the idle? I know ITB's give false vacuum readings and I have seen a few ways to overcome this. One is to draw vacuum from each intake runer and feed that into a small plenum which then feeds one sensor giving a "whole" reading from all 6 intakes. The other way is in the programming and how I intend to setup the ecu. At startup, idle and low rpms the engine will run in Alpha-N mode in order to keep a smooth idle and constant start up. Then at a predetermined rpm or load point the ecu will switch over to the more common density based mapping once the intake tract airflow has smoothed itself out and does not give false readings.

This all seems so simple now and I am sure once I have everything wired up I will be scratching my head more than a few times but I cant wait.

[David]

Jeff, if you do this for a living, I'd recommend taking the two EFI101 classes and buy a dyno. It's not that difficult, you would be better than a lot of tuners that haven't taken the classes.

I used to be a motorcycle mechanic and I agree with Dean, tuning carbs sucks.

[1fastredsc]

Coming from somebody who whipped up programs on a tec2, it's really not that hard, just need patience.

[cnavarro]

With the Autronic, all I did was single throttle body. We've used the SDS on TWM itb's and it works just fine, even with agressive cams.

Actually, on my 72 volkswagen squareback I have separate vacuum signals going to a plenum for the automatic transmission, so it's not very different than doing the same with the itb's for the map sensor.

[dean]

Hi Jeff,

I think one of the biggest advantages of EFI is controlling the ign. So I think dists. suck like carbs do. You wouldn't believe how cool it is to type in a # and hit enter and that makes the motor run different.

Can you do basic wiring? If so you can wire EFI. Or you can buy a harness made for you.

If you have a basic understanding of how timing affects the motor you can set the timing map and you will not blow the motor up. Same with fuel maps. Start out getting the motor to run at slow speeds and high vacume and then increase the speeds and loads.

Do you still have that DTA ecu?

[Jeff Alton]

Originally posted by 125shifter
Jeff, if you do this for a living, I'd recommend taking the two EFI101 classes and buy a dyno. It's not that difficult, you would be better than a lot of tuners that haven't taken the classes.

I used to be a motorcycle mechanic and I agree with Dean, tuning carbs sucks.

I do this as a second income only taking on the jobs that I feel like doing. That and a fair amount of retail specialty High Performance parts.My "job" gives me a fair amount of time off to work on others cars. Make a great living in my "career" this just keeps (too) busy! I do have access to two dyno's right near my house.

The SDS stuff is intriguing but it is not priced as "simple" as the design might suggest! I would probably go the complete system route and forgo the 12 plug distributor idea, I just think they look cool!

So you guys, how many hours on the dyno am I looking at here to get this thing all tuned up?

Cheers

[dean]

Hey Jeff,

I also like the look of 12 plug dists and webers. But they are crude devices compared to EFI. Cool looking though.

Dyno time. I have heard all sorts of time estimates for time on the dyno. Anywere from 2 hrs to 3 days. I think it depends on a bunch of things. But I think 6 hrs would get your fuel and timing maps done. Then you would have to do the driveabilty things. Like cold start, idle and accel pump.

[Jeff Alton]

Thanks Dean, that is good info.

How did you find tuning the DTA?

My other problem is that the one place with a dyno that the racers use is really familiar with MOTEC, great.....$$$$$$$$$

Cheers