Motor Meister The Real Truth !
 

First let me say that I normally don't do this. That is, post negative comments about a company, unless I have first hand facts and have made an attempt to contact the company, present the facts and ask them to make an appropriate business decision.

I have seen many posts about Motor Meister (MM) in other threads, but I had never dealt with any of their products, and thought some of the comments might be sour grapes for customers of MM not doing what they were supposed to do after receiving an engine, until now.

I am posting this to warn any and all that are thinking about doing business with them. BTW, I am not their customer, but have been asked to repair one of their engines.

The engine, what a pile of ****E.

History:

Engine completed in 2002. Car restoration completed in fall of 2005. engine time 934 miles.

Build sheet. 2.7 liter 9.8:1 comp, ge 40 cams, ported heads, electromotive, stock rods, 46 webers. etc...

Brought to me in 2006 May. Contacted me in Dec of 2005 about the problem.

Problem: pukes oil out of oil breather.
Customer repair: put longer hose on breather and run it around the engine compartment.

934 miles, engine noise customer called me, I listened to the engine and it certainly made noise, sounded as if the cylinder head surface was not sealing and it had some??? ,...... bent valves?

compression is as follows: #1, 10lbs. #2 18 lbs. #3 43lbs. 4-6 60-62 lbs. WTF?????

Leakdown: All over 70% and three over 95%, and the motor was only 934 miles old, nice job MM.

Disassembly:

Cam timing 1-3. 3.55mm (ge 40 cams) wrong
Cam Timing 4-6 7.25mm (ge 40 cams) really wrong

#1 cylinder sealing ring out of place damaging top of cylinder, damaging top of piston.
#2 cylinder (niresist ?) ring out of place damage top of cylinder
also damaging top of piston
#3 cylinder bent exhaust valve (insufficient clearance)
#4-6 all bent exhaust valves with damaged guides

exhaust valve clearance on 1-3 .060
Exhaust valve clearance on 4-6 .036 (remember the cam timing was not correct for this cam.

Cylinders, missing fins on all cylinders, different height codes (some 5's some 6's) some mahle, some not. Heights not corrected by maching, really piss poor.

Rocker arm shafts overtorqued by at least 10ft/lbs.

Cam drive gears not shimmed properly

Oil control rings on three pistons had their ends lined up so they did not seal.

Upon reassembly with new rings, new cylinders, rocker arm shaft seals, proper cam timing and proper assembly, I found the ignition timing set at (electromotive) 16 degrees initial, and 22 degrees advance, or 38 degrees total??????, but don't worry, the carbs were nice and rich, about 4 main jet sizes too rich.

This engine had been pre run and adjusted according to the customers build sheet.

This is probably the poorest assembly of any engine I have ever seen. I contacted MM, to discuss the problems with Lee Marks, even sending digital photos of the cylinder sleeves and the sealing rings not properly installed.

I asked for only one thing, two new cylinders and gaskets to repair the damage and assist the customer, no labor. It had been built in 2002. and their warranty was really over at this time. However, I wanted to give him a chance to make a wrong...... right. They offered the gaskets and the cylinders to me, to buy for 600.00. I bought the stuff from someone else.

THESE GUYS ARE POOR AT BEST, AND HAVE NO BUSINESS BUILDING ANY ENGINE IF THIS IS THEIR QUALITY. PLEASE CONSIDER THIS POST IF YOU INTEND ON DOING ANY BUSINESS WITH THEM.

I WOULD STRONGLY DISCOURAGE YOU FROM DOING SO.

Erik C. Madsen

WOW - great, factual account. These guys are crooks, bottom line.

The real bummer is places like the PCA will NOT pull the Motormeister ads from Panorama...shame on them. The lame PCA president says they "have no proof" of wrongdoing on MM's part. Kudos to Excellence, who had done so. We need to do all we can to protect our fellow p-car owners from these scumbags!

What's really amazing is that there are some people out there still doing business with Motor Meister! I guess I understand how it could happen. The fact that their ad is in Panorama really makes it look legit and the "rookie" Porsche owner could contact them, especially if they didn't know about this forum...

Every time someone sends a motor to them, it seems like different parts are returned. Now we know what happened to all of the unreturned parts!

Another reason I will not be renewing my PCA membership. I can go to Porsche DE's with my BMWCCA membership anyway.

Guys,

Fighting these battles legally is expensive. If someone has a well documented situation, I for one would help contribute toward legal fees.

It seems that this situation is crying for classification as a Class Action. Even here many could contribute to make right something for the Porsche community.

I think I understand the PCA’s reticence. Leonard and others rightly perceive the potential problem for our club if there is unsubstantiated action. The goal should be to substantiate in court.

If you have been abused, maligned, cheated or otherwise screwed, get off your ass and contact others similarly situated. There is power in numbers. Don’t take it lying down. Make something happen today. Every minute you wait, someone else may be screwed.

To be clear, I don’t have any personal knowledge but I want to see justice done. If innocent, let it be known. If not, then justice should prevail.

Best,
Grady

BTW, I renew my PCA membership willingly each three years. It is a democracy and I vote. Everyone should also. This is how things happen.
G.

Maybe Wayne could make a sticky post of this account at the top here for awhile ??

Can someone shoot me a lead on who would be a good motor builder at a good price. That is one of their selling points. How about in Texas.

Call Supertec in California.
They are worth the shipping cost.
Do a search on this forum and you'll see what I mean.

They are not the cheapest but they are worth every penny.
Call Henry and he'll walk you through the complete process.

I have one of their engines and I couldn't be happier.
22,000 miles of flawless performance. 3.5 327 RWHP 34 days start to finish.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156998032.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156997583.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156997640.jpg

thats not the pt......How do we let people know about M.M??????????/

Well... how much is a 1 page add opposite theirs in Pano? :D though there may be legal ramifications...

-m

Grady, when I approached the PCA leadership on the subject of banning MM from Pano, I kndly directed them to this BBS. They were in no hurry to turn away advertising revenue based on "heresay" on Internet boards and wanted to speak with indivuals who had been screwed (for lack of a better word). However, I have to wonder why there would be legal ramifications if MM were turned away......what happened to free speech...guess the dollar speaks the loudest.

In any case, hope to meet you at the big Pueblo races in a couple of weeks.

-Brad

Not sure where you live...but Mayo or Zim's here in the Dallas area do great work.

I feel bad for the guy trying to sell a 911SC Targa in the VA area.

The ad on Craigslist mentions that his motor was rebuilt by MM.

I am not playing "Devil's Advocate" here, I am simply offering a warning.

I am not a lawyer and these are only my thoughts, but some of the things listed here come close to Tortuous interference.
Although informing the public about questionable business practices seems noble, the law quite often lies on the side of business owners.

Forums like this one certainly help inform the public but I would caution anyone from taking a proactive stance on destroying someone business (even if ethics dictates some action).

California has a Bureau of Automotive repair that investigates automotive malfeasant. Perhaps a letter writing campaign from actual customers that feel a grievance would help to alert the proper authorities.

That said , "who's got the tar and feathers and where's that rail ?" :) Welcome to Deadwood

i just checked MM's Better Business Bureau record and they're rated BBB (very high). they've had a grand total of 6 complaints registered in the last 36 months. 4 were resolved satisfactorily, 1 was not and one appears to be open. with all the hoopla i hear (over and over) i guess it just reinforces what Grady has pointed out. Folks, don't get mad, get BUSY. (as an aside, anyone know where they post their BBB sign?) it's frightening how a business can stay going for so long by 'one-timing' the general public. anybody checked w/ the Cal. BAR ?
jerry

What is your problem?
You may think helping another person is "not the point" but I believe that is exactly the point.
That is what I did.
Plus I was showing off my engine a little:)

Bashing MM seems to be a favorite past time hear but that's not helping anyone.
Tell as many people as possible who the good shops are and the word will get around.
Henry was right about the law. If you believe someone is operating fraudulently, contact the correct authority with as much volume as possible and let the system work.
Bureaucracies function best if at all with large volumes of complaints.
Otherwise, interfering in a persons right to operate a business (no matter how poorly) could land you in hot water.

The Better Business Bureau is as outdated as buggy whips in todays climate. Someone actually has to contact them and file a complaint to start the [slow] ball rolling. Their rulings tend to lean towards the business NOT the consumer. As in: Their middle name.

I know this is factual because I had a complaint over 20 years ago with an aftermarket auto manufacturer that ultimately went nowhere.

Best thing here is to keep this thread alive and maybe some web guys here could start a anti-MM web page that we could keep afloat and would show up in popular search engines.

This sort of web page is done all the time on all sorts of subjects. There are no legal issues if someone is stating the truth.

Any Ideas?

can't agree with your position on the BBB, but so be it. they will keep complaints on file even if the business isn't registered w/ them and if businesses are registered they want to keep their rating up, but if nobody complains...
onward...
on an earlier thread here someone suggested a blog called Motor Meister Sucks kept at the top of the search engines. i was poking around and there was a lively discussion over on the 911 Turbo board. is there a way to tie all these threads together ? as a note, someone mentioned that Excellence has been accepting MM ads again. anybody know ?
best
jerry

I'd also vouch for Mayo Performance in Euless (between Dallas and Ft. Worth).
They have a mechanic, Tom Petruska, who is really great at doing engines.
He did a 2.7 RS MFI engine for me, and as well as a warmed up 3.2 Motronic.
Both were perfect and he is meticulous.
He will not miss anything during the rebuild process.

Not the cheapest, but not the most expensive either.
I believe you get what you pay for.
Tom and Mayo are A No. 1 Plus in my books.

Tell them that Skinner recommended you.:D

I have a business here, Chamber of Commerce always calls and wants $$ so dose everyone else,. Here is the pt I have TRIED to call them w.o. supposing I know their Phone number or anything, It all most cant be DONE.
Better B.B. knows nothing about business.

My thoughts about the proper authorities are state and federal agencies.
Bureau of Automotive Repair is a branch of the state consumer protection agency. The attorney generals of might be another possibility and because quite often there are interstate commerce laws involved you might (with enough complaints) get the feds involved. Of course all this would require actual complainants, signed and submitted complaints..

The BBB is an organization designed to promote business not police it.

Exactly :(

bbb is a business paid service
 

hello guys .

i had trouble with mm before , but what u going to do ( sue them ) , not worth the lawyer fee's. i took my g50 transmission to them in one piece with stiff 3rd gear. they gave it back to me in pieces and say u have to rebuild the whole transmission. 2700$ for the rebuild. hell no. 3 month down the line i found out the pieces they gave back to me was missing the starter , all the shifting rods, and even maybe they changed my lsd to a normal diff. i am always out of the country so i had limited time in california or even the united states. i did report them to the bbb , but nothing happens.

as for the bbb. the only thing they want is the business's money. they dont care about any customers or anything else. i went through it first hand with my company. when somebody makes a complaint about a company , bbb calls the business to tell what the customer says. and it ends there. lol

ps. mm charged me to steal my items. lol

I hope the Motormeister troubles we read about are erroneous or isolated, perhaps caused by a disgruntled employee like the GM guys said to have stuffed garbage in the door panels of cars shipped overseas.

My car has a 2.7 MotorMeister rebuilt engine and transmission, purchased by the previous owner, and it runs great, but negative posts could hurt my resale value if I ever hit hard times and have to part with my prized 911.

The 150 MPH mark has been visited a couple of times on my speedo and I have heard no bad sounds from the engine in the two years and 20k+ miles that I've had it.

The negative posts I've read did make me worried, however, so I contacted MotorMeister. They told me that negative posts were probably made by jealous competitors, that 90% of them were not posted by actual owners of their engines, and that their eBay rating is a more accurate indicator of their quality.

I also asked them to review the file for my engine and tell me what they did to it. Of course there is a long list, but these upgrades seem key to the engine's longevity. Please let me know if there are ways that I can verify they were done, and I will report back to this forum what I find.

24-Racing time serts on all head studs
1-Time sert on "long" intermediate shaft stud
24-APS head studs
Chamfer case through bolts to except o'ring seals to fight against leaks
Carrera altered cylinder cooling tin
Ported and polished heads
Turbo tensioners
SSI exhaust

Please help me find evidence of my engine's rebuild quality. I plan to add a BAE turbo kit and don't want it to blow up. Such a test will also speak volumes of this 2.7's strength and I'll gladly keep you informed of whether or not it fails and forces me to seek a 3.2.

Look.


I started this thread , and if you read the original post, I was very clear that I am not a competitor of theirs. I have a race team, and since I had some success (finished 2nd at the SCCA Runoffs), I have been over loaded with Porsche work.

While it is true that some competitors may use this as a sounding board, I typically do not.

I was appalled at the lack of proper assembly and parts, more things I have found:

- Time serts not installed square in the case
- mixed #5 and #6 height group cylinders, not machined to correct
- incorrect cam sprocket shimming

Please re read the first post for the rest of the maladies.

Maybe you have an engine that has been rebuilt from them at another time... ie. when the quality was higher.

Personally, I would'nt let them rebuild a Briggs and Stratton engine. I have seen other engines, that have had "problems", but never one that has had so many things wrong. I am not talking about a failure, which is entirely different, I am talking about piss poor choice of parts, piss poor assembly.

I really don't know how much more clear I can be with regards to MM. I have no real world proof about any other engine built at MM, only the one I took apart. I also need to point out, that I am not the customer, the customer is so digusted with them, that he has chosen just to pay out of pocket for the work to correct the engine. Using the proper parts and clearances. Which I have done.

I wish you every bit of luck I can. I am sorry you have to deal with the devaluation of your engine, due to this posting.

Erik

Thanks. Let me know if there is a way to verify the quality of my rebuilt engine from MotorMeister.

It seems fine right now but I'm ready to check anything reasonable that you suggest.

YOU sir are a VERY lucky guy with your MM rebuilt engine. I hope it stays that way.

As far as who to blame in the organization...................start with the owner. All ***** rolls down hill - therefore it would have to start at the top. It's one thing to sandbag and have generaly piss-poor 'workmanship' and it's another to outright lie, steal and cheat........But all together ????

I could gaurantee that having a MM engine in your car will hurt resale value IF the potential buyer is knowledgable about P-cars and the industry.

It has been well documented here and other forums concerning their 'reputation'

The ONE thing they do WELL is their website. Very enticing and easy to navigate. Prompting the unaware to dive in; feet first

So their ability to sell parts properly is indicative of their engine building reputation? Baloney!

Let me tell you two instances that I have had the unfortunate experience of observing directly.

1. Customer sends engine to MM for rebuild. Engine returns, ruins like hell, literally pissing oil out of cam thrust surfaces. Teardown reveals two different cams in the engine.

2. Another customer sends race engine for rebuild. Runs 30 minutes, seizes. REturns, rebuild, reinstall, blows up in 60 minutes. Can't remember what happened to the 3rd engine that they sent to MM, but now I'm doing all their engines so it wasn't good!

I assume they exist on volume. An MM rebuild should make prospective buyers nervous. However if it runs and checks out, I wouldn't worry too much at this point... It might bear some careful observation though. How many miles are on it?

Estimated 25k miles my rebuild so far. That's a good point, CSTREIT; this 2.7 pulls relatively strong and would definitely pass PPI. MM also installed a Kevlar clutch and new 1st & 3rd synchros in my 915 tranny.

Will provide details and photos of my 2.7 if it ever has any internal problems. This is my first 911 and the nightmare stories I'm hearing from mechanics make me want to keep quiet about having a MM engine, but I wanted to know what to look out for and give them a fair compliment that mine has been good.

BTW: My first 928 purchase is going very badly! Melted my wiring harness after a timing belt job, so now I'm trying to trade the car for 911 parts.

To suggest that the plethora of bad press is merely the rantings of a few unhappy customers or the fabrication of jealous competitors is ludicrous.

To call MM a competitor of those shops that perform quality Porsche rebuilds is like saying Ugo is a competitor with Porsche. The Ugo has some appeal to those people struggling with their budget but it is rarely (if ever) a good choice. You don't need the Porsche but you will regret the Ugo.

Type MM in any search engine and you'll find web sights devoted to informing the world of the legacy of MM.

First hand experience, we used to build transmissions for MM and had to stop because they would not authorize the replacement of parts necessary to perform a proper rebuild. Supertec chose not to be complicit in the deception.

As a foot note: I don't generally bash other mechanics work because there are many ways to complete a project and we (mechanics) already have an image close to that of an attorney or a used car salesman but when asked a direct question ethical people are obligated to respond.

i am with henry on that.


remember i am a customer ....................
i know what mm did to my car first hand .
the transmission problem was not my first encounter with mm.
i thought i might give mm a chance after the first problem with my engine. but i guess when mm is in business to make money not friends , then i dont know what to say.

mm does not get this point. when u make friends with your customers, u make more money.

right off the bat i would have been a bit quizzical of anyone in the porsche field that spells spyder as spider , as on their 911 motor rebuild page.

It's more like, "a hit dog always hollers". There's a reason there is so much bad feedback regarding MM on this forum.

HI all I have been reading all your postings with interest from a far, as far as I know we (UK) have very little dealing with MM , thy do advertise in the mags over hear. Question; what happened between 2000 and 2006 to pull such bad reports , as yesterday I went looking for some info on hear and came up with a interesting thread poster by 73ess on the 04-25-2000 '73s Engine Rebuild' and a reply from Steve from your one and only MM with what looked like some good advice:confused: , as from looking from the UK it looks like the workforce or management has changed for the worse over the period of time, just my 10 pen'th (sorry 10 cents), sorry to butt in on you idle banter.

regards mike

I started on this board by asking a question about who should build my engine.

This board saved me from a MM nightmare and pointed me towards Supertec.

I have posted many times about how happy I am with my engine. I believe you chastise incompetence and give credit where credit is do.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158337772.jpg

Some observations:

1. Tortious interference with business expectancies...difficult to prove. If the point of the posting is simply to discuss issues that past customers had with their re-build, that is one thing. If someone is considering using MM and gets told not to, then you are getting into tortious interference territory. Otherwise, its really more a question of whether the information is considered defamation.

2. If MM truly believes that these are posts by its competitors what is it doing to police to protect its goodwill? It doesn't appear that they have demanded that Wayne remove the postings. I have read on other sites where a certain german auto manufacturer threatened litigation against a guy who was offereing to sell lettering stickers for the tailgates of its pickups...merely because it was an unauthorized use of the trade name (i.e, the manufacturer wanted $$$). If the posts are by competitors, could this not be deemed unfair competition, defamation, or...???

3. I don't know that MM really considers the engine builders that fix MM motors to be competitors. Or for that matter, that it considers participants on this forum to be its customers. My perception is that MM's customers are people new to the Porsche used car phenom and/or people for whom a quick, inexpensive fix is more important than doing it right. In other words, they may operate at the PT Barnum end of the business...

4. As someone else has already stated, the BBB exists largely to foster business, not to protect consumers. That said, the success of a BBB complaint may depend upon the particular state. Here in Arizona, they seem to take a hard line against the business. The results will vary a lot, though, on who the BBB assigns to be your arbitrator. There are other internet-based consumer rights/protection groups to fight ripoffs (do a search on yahoo or google). These might be a better forum to address specific issues with a faulty rebuild. The CA state attorney general's office is also a good place to go if you have a problem. CA is fairly heavily regulated, so I would expect its authorities to take a customer complaint (or numerous customer complaints) seriously.

5. Knowledge of someone's good deeds spreads slowly. Bad press, on the other hand, usually spreads like wildfire. So, if you know someone who does excellent work, sing their praises so that the rest of us learn who the good guys are and will be less tempted to go to the well-advertised instead. Meanwhile, consider that MM didn't spring up over night and if its work was always poor it probably would have been out of business long ago (eventually even the best advertised businesses will get caught up with a bad reputation if their service is poor). Which means that the problem may be circumstantial. The problem I see with using MM is that their big sell (aside from price) is that you can ship your motor in, they'll rebuild and send it back to you. If you do that, you do not have a personal relationship with the person actually doing the work...in fact you don't even know who did the work at all. While the head of the business might be a great engine builder, his hired help may come from all walks of life.

6. Remember that small businesses are usually started by a guy who knows something about his/her particular industry. Most people who start small businesses want to grow them to big business (the American way). The problem is that most small business persons are knowledgable about their industry and know nothing about business in general. Usually this comes back to bite them in the a$$ when the business starts to take off. They get overwhelmed, they hire the wrong people because they don't know how to find (and keep) the right people, and then quality suffers...you get the idea. Keep all this in mind when trying to decide who YOU want to work on your precious Porsche.

7. Always remember...caveat emptor!

This is just common sense - but it is also wrong. MM has been taking in suckers for at least a decade.
Remember this when dealing with other vendors - just because they have been around a while doesn't mean that they aren't crooked.
-Chris

Thorshammer
pm sent