Nuts, bolts, washers, gaskets - what must be replaced with engine apart?
 

I'm working my way toward the heads, which compressions tests suggest have bent valves. Hopefully the pistons and cylinders won't need to come apart.

The engine only had 5000 miles when I over-revved it. Which nuts, bolts, washers, and gaskets need to be replaced and which can be reused?

I need to place an order today and want to try to include as much stuff as I can.

Lee,

For replacing as many nuts/bolts/washers etc as you're going to replace, you're better off looking for a local place that sells hardware in bulk. There's one about 15 minutes from my house and every time I go, I think I have enough, I've been there 3 times and I'll probably go one more time so I have enough to replace all/most of the hardware once the engine gets put back together. Good luck.

doesn't Wyane have a kit with everything needed?

Yes, but with about 55K total on the engine and 5K on a top end I'm trying to just buy what I need.

Lee,

It sounds to me like all you need to replace after only 5K miles ... would be the 'normal' Nyloc M6 and M8 nuts and aluminum sealing washers for the sump, chain, and valve covers. I normally order those by multiples of 100 ...

Warren said it.
New Nyloc nuts and washers come with the gaskets for the valve covers and I think that kit also has the stuff for the sump.
I have in the past just re-used the gaskets and nuts/washers without problems (Leaks)

Make sure you apply the correct torque to the head studs with a calibrated torque wrench when you finish up and do it according to Wayne's book.
The 3.0 has Alu crush seals on top of the cylinders in a groove.
It's up to you if you want new ones; I re-used the old ones (Just don't disturb them, leave them in the groove)

With bent valves, check the rockers and adjusting screws for damage.

Lee, You might as well face it......You'll need to buy another top end gasket set.Head gaskets should never be reused,nor the nylocs or crush washers.Remember what I told you before.....be shure to ck that valve to piston clearence.DO NOT use the new head gaskets when assembling the engine for this test.You may find that you have to eyebrow the pistons a little more.I have the exhaust valves touch the pistons on a stock 3.0 with nothing more than just the addition of 964 cams.Let me know if you need help with this I don't mind walking you through it.Tim.

Tim, I agree, that would be the safe way.
I have re-used undisturbed head gaskets on 3.0 in the past without problems but the safe way would be new ones. My reasoning was that the 3.2 doesn't have any head gaskets and I didn't disturb the seal in the groove. To my mind, it is more important to do the torquing of the head studs correctly to ensure the heads sit square on the cylinders.
I assume that he will follow correct procedure with this partial rebuild and check the deck height and cam timing.
Re the higher lift of 964-cams on your stock 3.0:
What type? 930/07 or 930/16?
What CR?
CIS-piston-domes?
What overlap did you adjust for the cam timing?
I have 98mm P/C's for CIS, 9.8:1 CR, 964 cams and I set the overlap at 1.4mm without any issues re deck height.

I don't know the modifications of your moter like others seem to know.

But leaving those aside I'd reuse all my gaskets (other than the head/cylinder seals) and all my hardware, as long as the parts looked OK. I replace the crush washers when they get so crushed they are hard to remove. I have had no instance of a used nyloc coming loose.

The big rubber O rings for the cam holder ought to be fine. Check the delta shaped 3 bolt gasket for the holder carefully, though. A downside to using some gasket cement on this one is that it can tear apart on removal. Replacing just this one with the engine in the car can be done, but it is a whole lot of work. The chain case cover gaskets are kind of delicate, but a guy ought to be able to get several cover removals out of one before he tears it.

Might this leave a slightly wetter motor? I suppose so (especially when the valve cover gaskets are getting a bit long in the tooth, though I have taken to liking Hylomar to lengthen their useful life). In a shop you can't do this kind of thing. Cheaper for the customer to put in new gaskets and new hardware rather than cleaning, inspecting, dressing, etc. At home you can. A little wettness I can live with - mine are going to get damp via a few of the rocker shafts anyway. If this bugs you later on, it isn't a big deal to put on some new valve cover gaskets.

The only time I haven't replaced the cylinder top groove gaskets was when I discovered I had made a major installation error - engine stands can let you lose track of which way is up. No problem resulted but they had seen no heat at all. These are somewhat expensive puppies, so I have wondered about just reusing them, but if there is a problem it might not just be a bothersome oil leak a guy could easily enough fix. I also note that after the gasketless 3.2s Porsche revered to gasketing this joint, did it not?

Walt Fricke

Good stuff, Walt.
Yes, During '91 Porsche added head gaskets on the 3.6 because some leakage was experienced by some owners of '89-'91 - 964s.
Strangely, the Carrera 3.2, without head gaskets, didn't have problems.
And the over-sized 98mm P/C's have no head gasket.
Go figure.
I still think that the most important issue is that the mating surfaces between cylinder are clean, not warped and that the correct torque is applied.
Meaning: Moly on the studs and washers, gently snug the barrel nuts crosswise, then pre-torque crosswise, then final torque.
Re-torque after ~1k mileage.
I also re-use nuts, bolts and washers.
Re: Gaskets. For valve covers and chain covers, I smear Moly (Anti-seize) on both sides and have re-used these gaskets for a long time.
I found that the gaskets don't stick to the metal with lube, are easily removed, and don't get damaged. Again, I believe that as long as the surfaces are clean and not warped, there should be no leak.
That's going back to many years of experience in industrial applications.
The delta-gasket on the cam seal is somewhat delicate and has to be positioned carefully. Some use sealant, some don't.
Hoping for no, or just tiny, leaks.

Thanks for the guidance. I ordered quite a few gaskets. The chain housing cover gaskets and valve cover gaskets all fell apart. I ordered the kits with new gaskets and hardward. Figured I might as well replace some of the hard to get to things like oil cooler gaskets while I was in there.

I don't plan on lifting the cylinders so I planned on leaving the cylinder to case gaskets in place. The flywheel seal and half shaft cover are leaking badly, so they're on my list also. I did order new flywheel bolts.

Do I need to check the deck height as part of this partial rebuild? It doesn't seem like anything will change that could affect it.

Any advice on removing old gasket material? The upper valve covers mating surface look like they haven't been properly cleaned in a long time.

Yeah, take a dinner knife and make (Grind) it into a little scraper.
Carefully scrape away the remaining old gasket-material.
Try my method of putting Moly grease on both sides of the gaskets when installing; they won't stick after that.
Deck height should be good; re-check the torque on the studs.
Final torque is normally 24 ft-lbs but, for checking after some mileage, I use only about 22-23 ft-lbs.
Out of curiosity, you migh want to check the cam timing if you like.
Quote: "The flywheel seal and half shaft cover are leaking badly"
With only 5k on the engine, the main seal shouldn't leak; maybe a bad install? New seal goes in with a little oil on the lip.
What do you mean by: "Half shaft cover"?
Half shafts are the axles with the CV joints.
Do you mean: Intermediate shaft?

When you are finished, make sure you rotate the engine by hand with plugs removed to ensure that all is well meaning: The pistons won't hit the valves.

The engine only had 5000 miles when I over-revved it.

HI Lee I think you should be pulling the cylinders off and the pistons to replace the rod bolts, as the rod bolts do NOT like being OVER REVVED, you tend to put the engine back to gether and it then decides to open it's self up on it's own, big time!!! I have some photos of what your engine will look like if you do not fit the rod bolts , but for some reason thay will not load up.

regards mike

Wow! That would mean splitting the case; virtually a complete rebuild.
Lee: Post some pictures of the bent valves so we can see how severe the over-rev was.
If the pistons just "kissed" the valves, the rod bolts may be o.k. but Mike raises an issue.

|HI Gunter you can replace the bolts without splitting the case, you just need to grow a 3rd arm and thin hand, or get a trusting friend/mate to help, and not drop the bottom of the rod cap in the cases, a good magnet comes in handy hear.

regards mike

I meant intermediate - not half.

I don't think the valves are severely bent... but that's just based on looking at the exhaust valves with a flashlight. The two cylinders that had compression offer some resistance when turning the engine by hand. I can also hear air being sucked into the intake valves on those two. Not the other four.

Gunter: you say I "might want to check the cam timing." I thought this would be mandatory after this level of disassembly. Is there a way to remove the heads without having to start over with the cam timing?

HI Lee I think Gunter is asking you to check the cam timing before you strip off the heads , as in your last posting you where looking down the ports and turning the engine over I assume the engine still has the heads/cams on, it would be good to check if the chain has jumped or it was just valve bounce??. you will have to set the cam timing when you put the engine back to gether, it will be good practice to check it now.

regards mike

Lee:
Mike said it.
What type is your engine? 930/07? 930/16?
Look down the right side of the right fan post; it's stamped on the case, not the post. Ignore the long cast number on the post,
It is important to know because different years have different overlap.
Valve covers are off, remove the plugs, slack off all valves completely, check/set the valve clearance on #1 & #4 intake, set the pulley to TDC (Z1) compression stroke (The rotor in the distributor points to the notch) mount the dial indicator on the collar of the #1 intake valve, then check the overlap according to the books (Wayne's Engine Rebuild and/or Bentley)
Do you have these books?
If not, you'll need them.
Read up on the procedure, then practise on both cams.
Take pictures!
To remove the heads, the cam towers have to come off meaning: Remove the tensioners, remove the chain sprockets, etc.
Keep track of the position, and number, of the shims under the sprockets.
The books tell you about the correct procedure.
Read up, it's more involved than you might think.
Any mistakes here with the shims, gaskets and O-rings will mean misalignment of the chains and/or leaks.
Take pictures ; they'll help you for re-assembly later.
Is this engine stock? Any mods? Stock cams?

I'm out of town right now... will check the case when I get back tomorrow. Yes, it's still together. I ordered the camshaft tool which should arrive in a few days.

I've got the books and have read and reread the sections on setting the timing. Figured it would make more sense when I'm actually doing it. I like the idea of checking it before disassembly.

The engine is stock except for 20/21 grind Web cams. I need to get the Z block and dial gauge. I see Wayne sells the Z block, but not the gauge. Any suggestions for a source?

The dial gauge needed for this has to have a special long extension; a standard gauge with short extension will not work.
Try finding a used one on the Pelican board; long extension is the key.
Prefer metric but it'll work with inches if you do the conversion.
1mm is 0.040".
Since you have 20/21 cams, ask Camgrinder John what timing he recommends giving him the engine #.
Do you have CIS or carbs?

I put up a "want to buy" post for the Z block and gauge a few days ago. I'll bump it up.

The engine is out of an '82 and still has the CIS. It's basically stock except for the cams. Records show it was reringed and heads done about 5K miles ago - so it wasn't a total rebuild. It really ran great and made a lot of power. I'm not sure why they went into the engine in the first place. The receipt claims it only had 50K miles when bought for the conversion.

After the over-rev at the DE, I finished the session. I didn't think there was any problem as it still seemed to make good power in the upper rpm range. It stalled after the session and was hard to restart. Once started, the power was down a bit and it ran rough under 2000 rpm. A cold compression test showed zero compression on three cylinders, 5 pounds, 80 pounds, and 145 pounds on the others.

If you don't find the right gauge, get one from a tool supplier and improvise a long extension. These dial gauges are pretty cheap now.

Engine out of an '82 is vague; who knows what happened in the past?
To be sure, post the engine type 930/..???

The case is 930 16.

I'm still waiting on the Pelican order for the camshaft tool. About all I can do right now is clean up the old gaskets... and from the looks of it that's going to take a while.

Ok rod bolts are always a good idea to replace after an over-rev,especially one that happened on deacceleration! Remember the rev limiter only works electronically,it DOES NOT work on a mechanical over-rev ie; aggressive downshifting.That being said....My previous thread was NOT about checking deck height...it was about checking valve to piston clearance.This is VERY important! Especially if you have bent valves! Like I said before, I have seen an 8.5:1 c.i.s. 3.0 bend exhaust valves on aggresive downshifting with 964 cams.It's not a good idea to fudge on the cam timing to improve on this clearence. Perform the valve to piston check & increase the eyebrow depth on the piston if necessary. Tim

Sounds good, Lee.
930/16 has 1.4 - 1.7 mm overlap with SC-cams but, you may want to find what setting would be recommended with your 20/21 cams.

For the camshaft, did you order the P9191 tool?

Tim: Can you give more details on your set-up?

Hi, This is an engine we are doing right now in my shop,so it's all fresh in my mind.And by the way it is still apart. The cams are Elgin 964 clones. Cam timing will be 1.4, comp. ratio will be 10.5:1 with JE pistons,and the engine will be C.I.S. This,again is not an issue about deck height! It is about V.O.T.C. (valve over top center) or as we call it,valve to piston clearence,an entirely different measurement. You should have,to be on the safe side,.080 on the intake and .0100 on the exhaust.When this engine came apart it was 8.5:1 and the exhaust valves hit.Not because of a deckheight issue but because of valve to piston clearence.964 cams have a higher lift than stock C.I.S. cams do,and someone did not allow enough room last time,for insurance.Remember nobody plans to over rev their engine,***** just happens when your on the track or driving aggresively.Tim

I really appreciate all the help on this. It's the one thing that makes me want to borrow a truck and take it to a shop. That and the fact that I'll spend as much on the Z-block and dial gauge than it would cost to have it done. But, I'd really like to learn how to do this.

As far as the rod bolts go - what would I be looking for? I assume to inspect them the pistons and cylinders have to come off.

Here's the cam timing info that came from Web Cam:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166554101.gif

HI Lee your cam timing from the note you posted is 1.9-2.2mm of lift with the clearance set at .1mm , as for the rod bolts you will not see anything to say that you have to change them unless you have the length/size of the bolts when thay where fitted to now check if the length is the same, the rod bolts are a lot cheaper than a set of cases/rods/crank/oil pump/oil pump drive/intergear/pistons/cylinders, and the hassle of taking it all to bits again to make a coffee table out of what is left, or if you are really lucky a wine rack for 4 or may be 5 bottles.

regards mike

Gunter, This was a '78 3.0 I didn't check it when it came apart,obviously when the valves are bent the valve to piston clearence changes and the measurement is irrealevent.If this engine had stock cams this may not have been an issue. When you go into a corner too hot, lets say 4th gear at 7000 rpms and your not slow enough and decide to select 3rd gear to slow down alot of ugly things can happen.I don't know how much clearence we will have yet going back together because I'm using JE pistons,and bumping up to 10.5:1,but I will be looking for .080" intake and .100" exhaust.I'll let you know when I get that far what I had out of the box and if I have to increase the valve relief in the pistons.However as a rule of thumb you should always make that check for valve to piston clearence especially if you are changing cams.TIM

My camshaft tool arrived today. I read the section in Wayne's book concerning removing the nut. One thing I don't understand is how to release the tension on the chain so I can get everything apart. Should the tensioners compress?

With the chain box cover off, you see that there is only one 13mm nut holding the tensioner on. Take off the nut and washer, and just pull the tensioner off. It will spring into the fully extended position, but this won't damage anything.

Walt Fricke

More questions... are there any alternatives to the tensioner tool Wayne shows for setting up the cam timing on the right side?

I really appreciate the support on this project. I'm beginning to feel like I'm in over my head. I keep telling myself, one step at a time...

What do you mean by "Camshaft tool"?? P9191?
Rotate the engine to the Z1 position.
Slack off ALL valve adjusters.
Compress the tensioner with large channel-lock pliers and insert a 1/8" nail to lock the tensioner in the compressed position as shown on page 152-5 of the Bentley.
Read that section.
You do not need the P204 or P 214.
Compression should be slow and resistant, leave the nail in.
Now the chain has enough slack for you to pull out the tensioner.

When dismantling an engine, there will be lots of parts, nuts, bolts, etc.
Keep the parts together in cans and label them, take notes, take pictures.
Before you remove the cam sprockets, read that section in Wayne's book page 157-58, note the number of shims on each side of the sprocket and keep the shims tied together with the sprocket exactly as they come out!

One step at a time; refer to the books, it's all in there.
Read first before you take the next step meaning: Use both books, they explain things slightly differently but, between the two, it should become clearer.
And yes, it is a complicated job to rebuild an engine.

If you feel uncertain, maybe someone nearby can help you?
Put out some feelers.

Tim:
10.5 : 1 CR with Single Plug?

Re Clearance:
To be clear: You would be setting the piston to TDC, then using the valve adjusters to check for 0.080" intake and 0.100" exhaust meaning: With 0.004" exhaust valve clearance, the distance from piston to exhaust valve would be 0.100" (2.54mm)
Is that correct?
In other words, at Z1, the exhaust-adjuster screw with 1mm pitch would have to turn about 2.5 times before the valve hits the top of the piston?

Yes, the tool I mention is the 9191. I've seen it described as a camshaft tool and cam bar.

The tool I was asking about from Wayne's book looks like (or possible is) a mechanical tensioner and is used on the right side to tension the chain during valve timing. He says to use vice grips on the case for the left side. Is there a reason why the tensioners aren't used? Chance they might compress a little?

I've read and reread the section on valve timing in Wayne's book a dozen times or more. It's actually starting to make sense. I'm going to see if I can find a dial gauge today so I can try the valve timing before pulling everything apart.

The hydraulic tensioners have some tension need pressure to fully extent/work.
Full pressure is only there when the engine runs.
Before teardown, you can check the cam timing with the tensioners as is because they have an inherit spring tension to keep some tension on the chain.
Go ahead, check the timing without adding extra tension.
After rebuild is complete, when it comes to final timing:
Vice-grips on left is good.
For the right side, mechanical tensioners, or any support to keep the tension on the chain.

My improvised set-up for the right (Socket and bolt/nut):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1166719728.jpg

Stay organized, take pictures, step by step by the book, don't jump ahead. SmileWavy

Gunther, That is correct! But you Must turn the engine over through one full cycle like this! Remember the valves open faster that the pistons retreat to the bottom of the bore.In other words the Valve chases the piston down the bore.The trick here,obviously is that the valve must never cath up with the piston.If this test passes,then you are safe! On our race motors we ALWAYS continue this test by increasing the turns on the valve screw (1/4 turn at a time) untill we make contact,then we know exactly how much margin we have.Tim

Gunter - super solution! I guess the trick is to get the temporary support out and get the real tensioner in place without moving anything.