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964 3.6 full engine rebuild ...over in the UK+ rolling road results

Hi,
Just thought I would post a few pictures of the rebuild that I am running with over in the UK. MY92 3.6 Carrera 2 Tiptronic Coupe.

I've been following over the last few months all the excellent documented US rebuilds that has given me an in-site and inspiration from eg. Kirks, James etc.

James:
90 C2 - 964 rebuild

Kirks:
964 3.6 rebuild

I had to do my own rebuild myself, as paying someone to rebuild/restore and work on your car is not the same satisfaction as achieving and doing it yourself to a high level.
I've rebuilt quite a few engines and complete cars, bikes (& have even showed them at shows), I even used to race cars way back in the past, but I've not rebuilt an engine as expensive as this...

Info: The engine would stall sometimes from cold on tick over but other wise run fine, It didn't burn large amounts of oil..well within spec, but was starting to leaking oil at the case joint etc. The engine had never had any major work carried out in its 125,000 mile life. So was ripe for rebuild before it went bang!!!!! ( lesson learn't from others!!)

I wont be repeating all the pictures the others have posted, but the pictures I feel document the build with lessons learn't/discovered etc. and for others to follow learn or just read for interest.




Below is my homemade crank lock/holder ..old bike spanner..works a treat










Last edited by iangray100; 05-19-2007 at 05:07 AM..
Old 04-08-2007, 02:28 PM
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As you can see, I have a few leaks and some very rusty engine panels ...good old wet UK climate....

I have found a couple of Engine/internal issues ...

Very loose inlet manifold mounts (6x Jubliee clips)..possibly causing air leaks. A broken valve spring a slightly worn cam lob and all the exhaust guides are worn.



I had quite a few broken exhaust studs but these were easily fixed with "Christian D. Sokolowski" excellent stud extractor jig....
Does anyone sell a fixture for drilling broken exhaust studs


Last edited by iangray100; 04-13-2007 at 09:46 AM..
Old 04-08-2007, 02:45 PM
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Whoops missed the cam picture ...one worn cam lob...not that bad but does seem to be a common issue after some high mileage ........see below

Last edited by iangray100; 04-10-2007 at 03:45 AM..
Old 04-08-2007, 02:47 PM
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Ian,

Your motor looks remarkably like mine when I pulled it apart. Same pitting on the cam lobes etc.

Looks like you will have to replace some of that engine tin too.

And of course the valve guides will need to be done.

Dont be shy with the pictures. Post a pic of everything you do and someone on here will catch any mistakes you might make. (I know they caught a few of mine!)

Kirk
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:51 PM
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Thanks Kirk ...hows your car ?

.........................

Ok the plan for the rebuild is:

1) New valve guides (size first refit) and recut valve faces and seats ...not to reface heads
2) New Small end bearings and new stretch rod bolts and nuts
3) Regrind Cam..standard 964 profile
4) New piston rings as the pistons are perfect but will be balanced cleaned and new C clips installed
5) Clean Nikasil bores as per Henry's recommendations in older threads ....as they are in very good condition
do I need to hone this?
6) New bearings for all moving parts
7)Balance crank, rods and pistons
8) New Steel head studs..933 epoxy coated..from Pelican
9) New rockers + RS seals
10) New oil return pipes
11) New Porsche nuts for the cases on the engine (self locking ...not nylock but the Porsche metal version) new tin ware and bolts etc etc ..all Porsche. New Exhaust studs and nuts etc ...New nuts and bolts all in Stainless steel for the cat and its heat shield...nuts not cheap!!
12) Fully Gaskets set from Henry (Wrightwood racing set) All green Viton O-ring seals...
13) New timing all in one chains and chain runners
14) New tin as needed and recondition the old if I can
15) Rebuild distributor etc new belt
16) Rebuild starter
17) New engine bay soundproofing
18) New Front and rear shocks (Biltsien Sport), new front anti roll bar bushes (worn) and a full 4 wheel geometry check and adjust.
19) Check Tiptronic gearbox internal oil filter replace front seal and all external sealing washers on plugs etc.
20) All new belts ..powers steering, Alternator, Aircon (AC) etc etc
21) All new Oil pipes...engine to filter, rear oil pipe from engine to tank and filter to thermostat. The thermostat to oil cooler lines I replaced them a few months back as they had started to leaking at the cooler end.


Sealers and thread lockers:

(I know some are not "preferred" but I have had excellent experience on past rebuilds with them, and the properties are the same if not better for the 1215..its grey not white!!, (also I can buy it locally at a Subaru dealer ):

1) Threebond 1215 Grey ( case and cam holder )
2) Loctite 574 ( Case/bearing/oil mounts )
3) Curil T ( green )...seals and oil gaskets etc
4) Locally made Graphite engine assemble grease..bearings
5) RTV Black Silicone ( Wynn's) (case through o-rings)
6) Loctite 271 ...strong thread lock (Rods and head studs case end)
7) Loctite 243 ...less strong thread lock (Flywheel bolts etc)

Specialist tools needed:

1) Engine stand mount.. 1000Lbs was used
2) Cam pulley holder...964 uses the same tool as a pre 89 911
3) 36mm open ended "side spanner socket" for the oil lines, and a 32mm socket for the oil line unions.
4) Porsche feller gauge, Z block and dial gauge for the timing and tappets.
5) Rear flywheel main Porsche oil seal fitting tool

Torque wrenches, 12 spline key in the picture (for the head bolts), sockets spanners sets etc etc. I assume you have all these already.



A lot of parts I've purchased from the US as its cheaper than buying in the UK even with shipping and Tax. I also collect parts while on business in the US, as it saves the shipping etc.

Suppliers used:

1) Pelican USA
2) EBS racing USA
3) Henry ....Supertec
4) The local UK Porsche garage, AFN Guildford thanks Paul and colleagues ... very helpful for ordering parts ..I ordered every week for 3 months parts...no technical advise just parts. And for Porsche's online parts catalogue ...PET :
https://techinfo.porsche.com/techinfo/VFModuleManager?Type=MainFrameSet
5) Newman Cams (Kent) for the Cam regrind
6) H T Howard & Co Ltd ...in Slough for small end, balancing and helicoil work etc
7)and a local machine shop down the road I've used for head work in the past, to sort and machine the heads and guides etc.

................
Progress :

Getting the head studs out was a challenge ...heat and force ..I tried stud extractors but they just slipped off on the studs ...the vice was used for the force after heat was applied...they eventually all came out. I then cleaned the threads..





As my posting are behind, I actually have the pistons and rods back with the new small ends, journal polishing and full rod,crank,piston balancing ....Crank was perfect and didn't need any balance adjustments (flywheel and front pulley did), but most of the rods and pistons were "tweaked" ..I think Porsche allow 9grams difference ...these are now all the same weight...RS style!!!.



After I fully cleaned the crank ...using a high pressure cleaning gun and also manually with carburetter cleaning...its stronger than brake cleaner..the crank is now shinning....


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Personal thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/340187-964-3-6-full-engine-rebuild-over-uk.html

Last edited by iangray100; 05-17-2007 at 03:50 AM..
Old 04-10-2007, 03:25 AM
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24x all new Steel head studs (993 black Epoxy coated) supplied by our hosts were installed using Loctite 271 and height adjusted to 130.2 ...takes a while as there are so many of them

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Last edited by iangray100; 05-07-2007 at 03:49 AM..
Old 04-10-2007, 03:34 AM
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Once the crank was clean I then started the installation of the rods..all new bolts and nuts. And installed all in the same order on the crank that I had removed the rods in.
Each new shell was greased and fitted ...the observant ones will have noticed the shell box is not for a 964.....I had to reorder as these were the incorrect set for a 964 but I had taken the picture by then and only noticed when the shell was a very loose fit!!!



Loctite 271 was used on each stretch bolt nut.



Each nut was torqued to 15Nm and then 2x 90 degrees



I then tested that each rod was free and able to drop under its own weight.

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Old 04-10-2007, 11:11 AM
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I learn't from Krik's project ..assemble all the case bolts and O-rings first...i used a pen lid to ease the job



After a final degrease the case half outer edge was thinly spread with Threebond 1215 and the internal bearing mount thinly spread in loctite 574.



After reading Weynes book (911 engine rebuild) and numerous threads on case bolt leaks etc. I decided to use a small fillet of RTV on each o-ring....most rebuilds seem to not...I didn't want it to leek as you can't get these bolts out with the engine in the car.



The case half's were then quickly bolted down and torqued....Kirks tip using bands to hold the rods.



I then ended up with a very small over spill ...highly magnified!!!...to much and it will over spill inside and could block oil ways etc

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Last edited by iangray100; 05-07-2007 at 03:52 AM..
Old 04-10-2007, 11:25 AM
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Ok ...a bit more progress with the preparing of the 6x cylinders as there were all in very good condition :

I used Henry's tip from an old thread to deglase the bores:

First we cleaned the cylinder with Red Hot, a spray degreaser, rinsed it with water and dried it with air.
We used a medium grit 3M Scotchbrite pad ( red ). My abrasives guy could not give me a grit but says medium or 7447 Red is his most popular hand pad for cylinder prep. It's hard to say how much work to put into this process but I worked in a spiral action from the top to the bottom until it all looked fresh. Now there are still lines created from where the rings stopped and how bad these lines are I guess will determine if you want to use the cylinder or not. In our test case you could see the lines but I couldn't feel or measure them. It's a judgment call and I'm using it. Next back to Costa Mesa R&D. John's a nice guy to donate his time to this endeavor. We rechecked the RA # of our test cylinder and much to my surprise we got a very usable 3.7. Remember it started at 3.0. I would not have guessed at that result. It is my guess that the change is from the removal of oil residue (glaze) from the cross hatch marks that made the difference.



New STD Goetze rings were used:



The ring gap was check in each bore for each ring set one by one: Gap Spec 0.15-0.3mm for new rings..all were within spec with out any adjustments.

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Old 04-11-2007, 12:05 PM
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The next trick was fitting all new C-clips for the small ends.

I made a tool for the job, as the force of the new clips was too much to mess around with pliers etc. without loosing and damaging the pistons C-clip area.

I found in my parts bin a small metal cylinder the size of the small end, filed it down so it fitted perfectly in the piston small end cut out and the inner hole lined up with the small end hole, then I used a perfectly fitting socket to push the C-clip in place. With a tap of a light hammer on the socket the C-clip "jumped" into place.




I decided to fit all the pistons to the conrods ( the Porsche way - quote the Porsche WSM) before I fitted the barrels as to me this was far easier. Pistons were refitted in the same locations they were removed from.



Rings were lightly oiled and new Viton Green seals fitted and lubricated with silicone grease ( eg. Dow 111 ). each ring was set at 45deg angles to each other, top ring facing to the inlet port the others at 45deg to it. This will not leave a ring gap in the bottom half of the bore as it lies horizontal in the car...hopefully stopping any oil leaking back into the cylinder.



A Piston ring clamp was then used to carefully!!! ease the piston into the cylinders..the piston should easily slide into place ...any real force and you have an issue or you will break a ring !!


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Last edited by iangray100; 04-11-2007 at 01:23 PM..
Old 04-11-2007, 12:43 PM
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Next job was to tackle the rebuild of the dual distributor.

Job: Clean,Re-grease bearings and replace the drive belt.

...procedure used .....it does assume the engine is assembled but only for TOC

1. Remove the distributor caps and note their position. To do this, you will need to remove the left heater duct, and all the spark plug wires. Make sure to plug the huge opening left by the heater duct so that you donít accidentally drop a screwdriver into the heat exchanger. Note the positions of each spark plug cable if they are not labeled (mine were labeled).
2. Mark the position of both rotors in the distributor body. It will be difficult to mark the exact position but for now, an approximate should be good enough. The position is given by gears so when reassembling, it would be either right on your mark or way off. Note that the rotors are not lined up parallel to each other(see above illustration). I recommend you to manually rotate your engine to top dead center -TOC- The above illustration should be a guide to do this. The advantage of having your engine at TDC is that you can use the factory marks on the distributor and, if by any chance, you have to send your distributor to a shop to have the job finished, having your engine at TDC will be advantageous.
3. Disconnect the three wire connector from the distributor. Remove the distributor from the car. The whole distributor is held down only by one nut that is located next to the base. It might, however, be difficult to pull it out of the engine because of the vacuum that is created as you slide it out. As you pull it out, it will rotate slightly. Mark the position of this gear in reference to the dist. body and in reference to the shaft to which it is mounted.
4. Remove the rotors and on the main dist. remove the clip that holds the "BIG PLUG", pull the big plug out and a smaller plug should come out from inside of it.
5. Remove the three Phillips screws inside the main distributor and push the plug inside the distributor so that the guts can rotate.
6. Using the correct hex tool, remove 5 hex screws from the distributor (one from between the two distributors and 2 from inside each distributor.
7. Remove the pin holding the gear at the end of the shaft. Do not waste your time (like I did) trying to save the pin to re-use it. Just drill trough it. You can buy a pin at Pep Boys or other auto-parts store for under a dollar. The pin is set in an unusual way; you will need to drill pretty deep into it before it can be force out. Be careful, both shafts are held in under pressure and as soon as the pin comes out, the pressure will make parts shoot out.
8. Using the Dremmel, file down the three indents holding the cap at the bottom of the second distributor shaft. Take the cap out carefully. You will be reusing that same cap.
9. Take out the lock washer at the bottom of the shaft of the second distributor. Again, be careful, this is held under pressure.
10. If it hasnít already come out, you can now take out the housing around the belt.
11. Clean the mess that the old belt made around the housing and distributors. You can use a spray of carburetor cleaner for this or any other cleaner (Iím sure there are more appropriate cleaners available.)
12. Replace the belt by putting it around the primary distributor (the one with longer shaft) first, turn it to the previously marked position on the distributor body (the rotor position), place the belt around the second distributor. Again, you can put back the rotor and make sure it points towards the previously marked position on the dist. body. Slide the smaller shaft into its housing. Youíll have to try this a few times before you get it right. It helps if you have three hands. I lubricated everything around the shafts before putting it back together.
Make sure that both rotors are pointing towards the previously marked points on the body. Donít be an extremist on these positions. The teeth on the belt will make it be right on the money or noticeably off the mark. Note that the two rotors do not point in the same direction. One is slightly ahead of the other.
13. Insert the gear at the bottom of the long shaft. Using C-Clamps or other means of applying pressure, compress the long shaft of the distributor against the gear itself. Compress it far enough so that you are able to insert the new pin.
14. Compress the small shaft against the body of the distributor (note that is different from step 13) and insert the lock washer once it is compressed far enough. It helps to use a semi hard piece of wood on the top of the shafts so that the C-Clamp doesnít mark or damage it.
15. Continue putting everything back together.
16. Install distributor back in the car. Note that as it slides in, the rotors turn a few degrees. You will need to off set the rotors from your marks a little so that as they turn when inserting, they end up pointing towards the right place (same place that they were pointing before initial removal) Again, if is in the wrong position it will be very noticeable.






To refit the bottom c-clip the bearings have to be tensioned ..I used a valve compressor for the job.
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:16 PM
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With age and a wet climate ...hidden items corrode......are these the worst washers ( used on the engine oil lines and release valves ) that any one has seen...just ready to give way on what was a working engine ......major oil leak pending here !!!

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Old 04-11-2007, 01:27 PM
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Wow you are making fast progress!

I used O-Ring lube on my through bolt O-rings. I think you are the first I have seen use Waynes method of putting silicone sealant on them with a 3.6.

Do we get pics of the piston tops so we can double check you installed the pistons with E towards intake? I hated installing the wrist pin c-clips.

Everything is looking great.
Keep the pictures coming.

Kirk
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:35 PM
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Kirk ,

the only picture I have to show the piston top E's is this one ..but there were all facing the inlet ....



6x New head graphite sealing rings fitted ( supplied in the wrightwood gasket set and as removed from the the engine on disassemble..the metal ring sometimes supplied in other kits I understand doesn't seal as well)
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Last edited by iangray100; 04-16-2007 at 02:51 PM..
Old 04-13-2007, 09:58 AM
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Isn't that the temperature sensor mount on the head at the right. Should't it be on the outside of that bank? I assume you are just using that head to test clearance so it's not in the final location.

Your updates hit me at lunch time so they motivate me to get home afterwork and start a project. Thanks!!
Old 04-13-2007, 10:09 AM
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Ok the next progress is fitting the heads ..of cause after I reassembled them after from returning from the machine shop ..( new Pelican guides + 1 fitted ) and recut seats etc. .....its a shame to hide them inside an engine





As per the WSM the studs were lubricated with Porsche optimol Paste. ..very fine grease.


For the Head nuts I actually electro plated these in Nickel plate with my home plating setup. Each nut flat surface was again lubricated as per the WSM. This is to make sure the torque force is correct and even for each stud and not a twisted force to over ride friction of the thread or head/nut surface.



Head head was torqued (as per the WSM) to 20Nm first then 90 deg. I then as per Alex's thread check the torque of each nut ...approx 40Nm

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Old 04-13-2007, 10:18 AM
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After the heads I rebuilt all the rockers. I had new rockers from EBS racing but without nuts etc. so the old nuts and adjusters needed checking and cleaning. I also fitted new RS seals to the clean rocker shafts.


My reground cam's look perfect and quite different to the old marked one....far cheaper then buying new from Porsche ...they are silly money and according to the Cam grinder, Porsche Cams are some of the strongest around with the thickest harding available...rip for a regrind.



Cam retainer was obviously checked and cleaned and degrease, each rocker shaft retainer was cleaned and smoothed down with fine wet and dry so the seals would work. Face was also check for flatness and greased. Threebond 1215 was thinly coated onto the face.



Cam retainer was torqued down ( 20Nm middle nut out out sequence) with the cam in place, but dry and made sure it was able to rotate freely.

Magnified shots of the squeezed Threebond 1215...even and perfect.





Cam was removed and then the lobs and bearing areas coated in assembly grease.



New all in one chains...no links here !!
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Last edited by iangray100; 05-16-2007 at 02:43 PM..
Old 04-13-2007, 10:39 AM
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Don, your being inspired like I was a few months ago ...;-)

Your right but from memory all the head had the same temperature thread mount....but I put the heads back in the order they were removed as each one I marked as I took the engine apart ...example of the three dot = head 3 etc etc ...

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Old 04-13-2007, 10:45 AM
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At this point I had less time so didn't want to tackle the timing so took the starter motor apart ...

Job: clean and check brushes and lubricate the bearing etc.

the

The starter brushes were fine but the "lead" to the brushes from the solenoid was very corroded and turning to dust as it was moved. I made a new lead up with some old earth braided cable and soldered (you will need a big iron ...200W+) it onto the brush mount..with a new eyelet connector at the other end, this I suspect is why a lot a Starters fail when the lead corrodes and turns to dust ...leading to no current to the brushes....

The three screws holding the solenoid in place are part of the electrical circuit for the solenoid to earth, so "DONOT" lubricate these screws as the the solenoid will not work if you do ....a little trap I fell into !!!! as they will be isolated!!!!
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Old 04-13-2007, 10:59 AM
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Your markings are smartly small and perfectly effective. It also makes perfect sense that the temp sensor mount would be on all heads so Porsche does have another part and part number. I hope you have a trouble free assembly!

Old 04-13-2007, 11:00 AM
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