...going to read your enging build post now Porschekid. Thanks for adding that to your recent response.
Bob

There are a number of builders who can build either high HP or high torque motors. I was speaking with one of them today and he was telling me he had gotten the pump set the way he wanted and was getting 370 RWHP on a 3.0 RSR motor. So it can be done, again what is your budget, that will most likely set your limit.
A lightly worked 3.6 in a 2200lb car would be a hoot!!!
Bob

i believe that mine will be just over 300rwhp when i'm done.
to get there i believe i need the new headers (done), and a slightly hotter cam like a ge60. then some serious tuning time.

i did not mean then 350hp was at the wheels, 320-350 crank hp is the pinicle of affordable porsche hp, on the street, much different story if your willing to sacrifice engine life and only operate in the 4000-8000rpm range.

i am already ~320 crank hp, depending on what loss you believe. there should be the last 30 hp left in the cams (raising peak close to 7000) and then tuning to get every last ounce.

i never considered rod length. i looked at bore/stroke ratio, as a nice over-square engine is fun, however i'm was not interested in playing with rod lengths...leave that to the experts are porsche (IMO).


if you look, porschekid's engine plan will be very similar to my own, however he will have some more expensive components , probably resulting in that slightly over 350hp he is looking for. the components that he has going farther on are the custom pistons ( mine are more run of the mill mahle's, however they are still quiet expensive and very nice.)

he also went with efi, which allows more percise fine tuning, however neither my mechanic or myself are comfortable with efi, whereas he has lots of weber experience. Remember, the tuning is as important as the parts, if you cannot get it set-up right it doesn't matter if you got all the best stuff.

this is a guess, but i figure his new induction system is still going to use his jenvey throttle bodies, just with a neat volume specific plenum for them to draw from????

however i'm not sure why 993 HE's are going to be used, i know they are good, but didn't think they were as good as B&B's or european racing headers.... though he and his farther know more then myself. might just be for the heat exhcangers....

gonna check his thread...
once again i'm enjoying the conversation and sorry if any of my recalled points are wrong, not intending to come off as an expert, just as an fan of bastardized porsches making more hp...

Nick

The heat exchangers are simply to keep heat. Once the car leaves my fathers hands and becomes mine a set of equal length headers and multiple muffler setups will be constructed and put to use. The new intake design will do away with the Jenvey parts completely. It will be sufficient for NA but would have to be beefed up considerably for forced induction.

You can run twin plugs off a dizzy and top it off with carbs but you want be able to get much fuel mileage out of the car and it wont adjust for climate changes. The Jenvey's themselves do not cost 5k, with the electronics and other parts it gets up there though. A new set of PMO's with a twin dizzy and msd boxes I bet would come pretty close.

I think the strok/bore ratio discussion is much overhyped on street motors. 9m makes a stroker crank and revs it well up there without any problems that I have heard of yet. Going big on the bore does represent a huge amount of problems though again mainly seen only in racing applications. If you want a big oversqure bore/stroke get a 60mm crank and pop some 103mm pistons on it. If you want something with streetable power I think the smallest crank to start with is the 70.4mm but I already want to swap out to a 74.4mm. Lighten it, knife edge it, custom journals with custom rods, lightweight pistons bla bla bla. Its sad how heavy most of the Porsche aftermarket pistons are compared to some larger race pistons.

Combining big HP and streetability can get very expensive. Thats the main reason I went with efi, the ability to tune and retune and retune. Plus if I ever grow tired of a big na motor, swap the cams and pistons, bolt on two turbos and call it a day haha.

Find a tuner in your area that is very well versed in efi and go with the system he uses if you go with efi. I made that mistake initially but have since found someone in the area that is good with autronic.

370rwhp on a 3.0 air cooled motor? Interested in how long it lasts between rebuilds and what the dyno sheet looks like.

These are the specs of my engine:
- 993 case
- 3.9L CMW P&C
- Carrillo rods
- RS valves (52mm/43mm)
- 45mm ported heads
- CMW Ti retainers
- CMW valve seats
- Ti springs
- Solid rockers
- Bronze guides
- DC-62 cams
- Jenvey ITBs (51 tapered to 45 stacks)
- Motec M600 EFI

A friend with a similar (bigger stacks, DC-100, DTA EFI) set up acheived these numbers:

- Corrected Max torque 352 ft/lb @ 5,500 rpm (300@4,500 - 270@3,000 - useless below, DC-100 non street cams)
- Corrected Max power 425 HP @ 6,900 rpm

I am taking the above results with a grain of salt (corrected numbers, which dyno, comparison to other engines on same dyno etc) but is a starting point.

I would be happy to make 380hp at the flywheel with 93 octane fuel with my motor.

The engine is getting tuned this week. As soon as I have a reliable dyno sheet I will post it.

PM if you want to talk about the costs involved.

I am NOT an engine builder and NOT an expert.

Thanks Ciao for your offer. I will keep that in mind.
By the way, when do you move across the big pond?

Sorry everyone for my delay in keeping this going...MAJOR family and work issues cropped up over the past week or so... everyone is fine but significant "re-alignment" of stuff happening.

I still need to read Porschekid post to check out what he did and the results...anyone care to summarize what his goal(s) were and what he finished up with???

Bob

I think I read in Bruce Anderson's performance handbook that the 3.2Ls of 1984-89 use the same case as the 930. It also mentions putting in 95mm P&Cs as a bolt on upgrade to 3.4L.

I have a stock 3.2L and would like to see 300hp for less than $5k. Does anyone have a recipe in their hotrod cookbook that?

I was condsidering bolt on turbo for low boost application. Which is the better path? More displacement N/A or bolt on turbo?

Turbo will be the quickest and cheapest way.
I would also consider a supercharger. They have become reliable and you do not have to deal with the lag.

The N/A route is definetly more expensive. The cheapest way to get 300HP would be an engine swap with a 993 V-ram. But it would be way beyond $5k

Do you know of a bolt on supercharger kit? Who is the vendor/website?

I would start talking to these guys...

http://www.autobahnperformance.com/projectcar_supercharged911-page1.htm


Knoxville Superchargers also work with 3.2L engines. This thread makes for an interesting read....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78070&perpage=20&pagenu mber=1

Then TPC has developed superchargers for 964/993s. They do not have anything out for a 3.2, but they are also someone I would talk to...

http://www.tpcracing.us/

I don't know where you guys heard the rumor that the 3.6 and bigger engines don't rev like the smaller ones do, but it's wrong, wrong wrong.

A 3.6 w/ some decent cams and optimized gearing is a great combo(think RoW 964RS), a 3.8RS is even better(mine revs into the 7Ks but doesn't need to), 997GT3 or 997RS is even better.

Re: 911 "Muscle Car" engine possible?
 

911tweaks,
If you don't mind me asking what do you consider reasonable? I am seeing lots of ideas and specs thrown around but not the costs associated with them. Certainly there are some out there that think they can attain 300rwhp for 5k...you can't do a quality rebuild of a stock 2.4 for 5k....maybe as a DIY. Not to take the thread off track but I am astounded at what a build costs for these motors.

hi guys...in stepping back of late on MANY fronts of lifes' issues, it is amazing how caught up in the fine details one can become and possibly miss the objective. Kind of like the expression that is, "one can be soo deep in the forrest that they cannot even see the trees!"

for more explaination on my wishes for this killer motor build, I am wondering and thinking IF it will be the most "$$$ economical" would be the following:

1. use of car is 95% street & aggressive street i.e. boulivard pocket rocket, tire smokin' machine that handles great also.

2. what about the approach used when I was back in High school (30 yrs ago this yr, ouch!!!)...take a running, hopefully better than spewing and blowing oil, stk 3.6 and put in the most aggressive cams and either keep the f/i or switch to pmo's??
Kind of like taking a 427 Ford that was in a Merc Marquis that had a 2 barrel carb on it and put on a hugh 950 holly double pump carb, hi rise intake manifold, headers, cams and off to the strip we go...can't we do this with our beloved Porsche engines??
and not brake the bank??

IF we try to go the 3.0L case and build up, machining of everything to be harmonious and not a disjointed arraingment of parts would easily cost the basic following:
3.0L case $1500
machine case: line bore, shuffel pin, enlarge spigots...$500+
Crank $500
Crank micropolished, balanced, knife edged...$500
Conn rods...$1500+
Conn rod & head studs (Supertec) $750
Pistons 100mm+ (JE?) $2500+
Cylinders (Nickies) $3000+
Heads, rebuilt w/new valves & flowed...$3000+
Cams $500
Cam towers $400
PMO's $3000+
Twin plug Supertec dizzy $1500
Ignition $1000+
Gasket set $400
Hdwr $300
Cleaning, plating... $750
misc machining, balancing...$500
oil cooling w/elephant lines, front fan cooler...$2000+
A "what the h^ll, while I am in there fudge $$, $1500
...this totals $22,600!! This is doing all of the wrenching and assembly in-house.

I believe a 25-50k mile well running 3.6L engine can be had for $9-12K ready to plug in. Add to this oil cooling, trans adapter hdwr...$3000 and I believe we will have a much more durable engine set up for our goals. Wouldnt this 3.6 be a less stressed set up vs. pushing the h^ll out of a 3.0L build up??

Please flame away or inform us all on what makes best sense here.

Thanks all!
Bob

With your 3.6 direction I would think a 964 cam, Steve Wong chip, and headers, it you dont need heat. In a lightweight car that would be fun.

What do you think this would have for rwhp?

Also, I didnt add to my previous input was that if the 3.6 donor started failing, it woild be a better i.e. more cost effective, place to then put 3.8L p&c and rebuild from there, right?

Any cost screw ups on my last input, what about this...?

Yes the cost of using 3.6 or 3.8 P&C is similar. You are also machining the case etc so...

I think you should pay up and use EFI and ITBs if you go that route.

It's a lot of money for a little gain though....

Bob's motor suggestion would put you 50HP shy of the motor you are dreaming about.... but would save u $15k... Is it worth it?

A lightly modded 3.6(ss cams, rodbolts, chip, headers) in a G50 chassis is a very rewarding hotrod. More than enough to get you in big trouble. Keep the tires to no bigger than 265 in the rear for street use.

The same in a 915 chasis is also great, just not quite as robust.

I wouldn't go more than a lightly modded 3.6 in w/ a 915

so Teo are you saying that the most cost effective route to start from is to start with the 3.6L donor?? If so, do what "bolt-on" mods to it and what would we looking at for rwhp after these bolt-ons??

Bob