Wow..thanks guys. That was pretty much my feeling on the subject. I was hoping you big bats would weigh in and this thread might be a valuable reference for someone when they are confronted with the word..rebuilt. I think in my own case I wound up in the area between a rebuild and a remanufacture but I'm very pleased with the results...my accountant isn't.

Stijn,

Flattery goes a long way. Thanks.

I am publishing – just in small bits on Pelican.

This suits my health situation. I look at a thread (or multiple threads on a subject) as a “book”. Posts are paragraphs or chapters. I’m my own editor with proof reading from the Forum. Wayne is the most friendly publisher (ask anyone who has had to deal with a print publisher).

I have the material. I write everything in Word and then paste to forums and email. I’m up to eighteen 750 page Word documents. I can use Find on key-words.

When I have something to offer I do so in complete form (well, as best I can). I try and write in complete sentences using normal American English. I try and not use too much jargon and idiom. The most important reason is the international aspect of the Pelican Forums. Translation programs work best with complete simple sentences.

I am collecting technical info and images for a transmission book. I hope to brow-beat Wayne into authoring and donate my stuff.

BA has finally got me to help with a 3rd Ed. I was one of “…whose request for anonymity…” in the prior two editions Acknowledgements.

This already exceeds my ability to get things done these days.


OK, back On Topic.

Lets not quit here. There is a lot to be learned about the philosophy of rebuilding a 911 engine. There are pitfalls. There are also great benefits from the proper approach.

There is no substitute for careful planning. Research allows you to “know your stuff.” When dealing with a shop (or anyone else), good 2-way communication is paramount. When DIY, keep others involved as a “reality check.”

This Forum allows a unique possibility. As Einstein proposed, we can do “thought experiments.” We can build imaginary engines, work through the pros-&-cons, evaluate the costs & performance and more. It costs nothing other than expending some brainpower. There are many here who have “been there and done that.”

Best,
Grady

New here this is first post.

I think "rebuild" is the most misused term on the internet, and else where. I guess it has been well covered here in this thread.

This deal about who does the work "rebuilding the engine" is good.
There are many stories here on the net about many so called professional shops turning out junk. Just look at all the complaints about dealer service, I'm talking about all manufactures of cars and other manufactured items as well. You have to remember one thing about a company doing work on something they employ people to do the work in most all cases and it does not matter who it is, and how much experience they have they can make mistakes, and actually if they are people that have worked on the same type of item many times, they become over confident, lax and open themselves up to mistakes. Also most all these outfits are of course on the day shift schedual, and since most all people on that shift are literal walking zombies during most of the day, no wonder there are so many complaints. I have been around many shops and worked with many people I have seen it all.
As far as who is going to do a better job, someone that does it at home or someone that drives say 30 miles to work in the morning and has to sip coffee all day long to stay awake, and dreams about the drive home and what ever else is happening the rest of the evening. And then has to deal with what ever shop politics are happening that day.
Then there is a guy like me, I have the experience and can do the job at home, and will take the time it should take, not hammer it together as fast as can be to meet a certain time frame, or else the shop looses money attitude. But then like some say here gosh your a nobody and the quality maybe questionable. Ah before you say that stop and think.
I could be the guy doing your engine at that high priced shop you are having it done at. Would you rather me do the work at home where I can control the environment as far as cleanliness etc. and be relaxed and enjoy doing the work. Or would you rather me doing it at the shop where I might be po'ed at the boss or the customer, and bounce the parts all over the place, drag the parts across the concrete floor, get mad and beat it with the biggest hammer there I could find to make it fit. Hey I have seen it happen. I worked at a shop one time and watched the supposed top guy screw up some cam bearings doing the job fast, yeah it got done fast, it also came back. I have seen people with many years experience gouging parts using improper tools or techniques, but are they going to replace that messed up part that may cost them thousands? Don't think so. I have seen many so called top guys that really aren't.
And as far as a DIY guy. It all depends on what he knows. If your not a machine person, (which by the way not many mechanics are machinists.) and lack mechanical apptitude, then you are better off not trying it. Some people have it in there blood, and some just do it cause it was a job to get into. Personally I don't care to let anyone work on anything I have, they just plain aren't careful enough. They don't respect the parts.
Then there was a mention about the time factor. And how experience will bring down the time. Well I'm sure the guys doing F1 racing engine builds are pretty experienced at it. Yet they brag that it takes about 2 weeks to do it. And here one fella mentioned about 10 hours or so?
That is the key reason to stay away from a big shop or any production rebuild outfit. They push push, you don't get quality with the push push attitude.

Sorry to rant so much.

Engguy,
Welcome to the Forum SmileWavy
You will find a lot of good info here.

I think you mistook the level of experience and dedication in most Porsche shops. Few work on Porsches because of some huge profit motive (its not there) and few laggards last long.

As in any industry there a few sour apples. Typically the market weeds them out. In general, the Porsche community is blessed with competent and enthusiastic people with proper motives. In fact I think Porsche has probably the best in the world.

Most are involved because of the love of the cars, the technology and the great people. Yes, businesses have to make money to be in business. Yes, customers want good service at a fair price.

Please don’t mistake our criticism. Our self-analysis is designed for all of us to understand how to make the system better. As you may note in my posts above and in other threads, the issue isn’t shops vs. DIY but competence vs. lack thereof and honesty vs. crooks.

I used to employ 9-14 people in my Porsche only shop several decades ago. I can tell you first-hand everyone was on the same page trying to do the best possible work. Non-enthusiasts, slackers, incompetents, etc. never got hired.

The local Dealers have people that I find as top quality, well trained & supported and intent on doing the right thing. I know both the management and the technicians. I have some issues with PAG/PCNA policies but that doesn't involve these issues.

Many of our local shops are my former (20+ years ago) employees. All operate exceedingly competent and ethical shops. No one around here is a “zombie”.

I think you are talking about “flat rate” work. We all know how that can be abused. That isn't typical with Porsches. Even with my family's Toyotas, I discuss this flat rate issue with the service writer, service manager and technicians. Never a problem with that.



With your good intent and qualifications, you should have great success as an independent shop owner or home mechanic. Welcome. :)



Best,
Grady :D :rolleyes:


PS; for those not familiar with “flat rate”, this where every “job” or “procedure” is charged to the customer with a fixed number of “hours”. This is supposed to give the customer a fixed price no matter how long the job takes. This is the norm in the auto repair industry, particularly all franchised auto dealers.

The abuse occurs (as Engguy notes) when the tech “beats” flat rate by doing the job in less time. This is encouraged by the service manager (who also gets a commission). This allows the mechanic to (typically) charge for 60+ hours while working only 40 hours or less. The Dealer and tech make money at the customer’s expense. Further abuse occurs when something difficult is encountered; there are additional “jobs.” The customer never gets a break.

I solved this problem by charging a high hourly shop rate, paying the mechanics a high salary or hourly wage and charging actual hours worked. Everything we did was to do the best work possible and efficiently. If a mechanic made a mistake, I covered the cost of the re-work, not the mechanic. The job got done correctly. Those issues were addressed at salary review but peer pressure was far greater and there were few mistakes. When there were winter slow periods, everyone still worked full time (although many took an occasional long weekend to Vail or Aspen:D) as I would build shop engines and cars for inventory. Everyone benefited.

The whole point of my system was to have the work done correctly and everyone was treated fairly. I didn’t make as much money as possible but I slept at night and can stand proud.
G.

I am certainly not an expert or "professional" engine rebuilder, but a mechanic with a lot of machining experience.

I just wanted to say that engguy makes a good point about the machinist aspects of doing a job properly, not to mention the point about the "shop politics" being a problem.

However, I will not discount or ignore the professional environment especially when you are dealing with racing. We are talking about lives involved. Of course, we are talking about lives being involved even on our freeways and roadways.

I guess my point is, a good professional shop with a manager/engineer who cares about his people will make a big difference for the atmosphere that these engines are being built in. By creating an environment of quality minded individuals, as well as, good decent mechanics whom come forward when they make a mistake, because we can all learn from our mistakes, makes for a better product output to the customer. Point and fact, I have made some mistakes which I wish I never had, but I can guarantee you I will NEVER make them again. Some were very painful to admit and stomach.

Banging on parts and installing them into a customer's car is serious negligence IMHO. Hell, it should be criminal.

Thoughts?

Whoops~!

Sorry, Grady. I did not see your last post....Internet very slow here in Eastern Washington today for some reason.

You have said it best.

EdSmileWavy

No matter what kind of shop it is. If said employee would rather be doing something else, meaning looking forward to quitting time or friday, then watch out. I work with people that act like they really know whats going on, but in reality they don't know much. So I know good an well what a professional shop is like, only yeah this is not automotive related, actually much more important, aviation related.
Anyway in the end you would get a much better job done by a guy like me, that loves doing it, and will spend the time that no shop is going to spend. The biggest fear for some people in having someone like me doing it. Is they want some kinda of warranty, and figure someone doing it on their own won't offer that. Thats a price thing though. And in the end how many professional shops even honor their warranties? Here on the net are many stories of dissatisfied customers with car dealers and other such professional shops. Still you can blow the horn for the shops, but in the end, its still hurry up get it done attitude. How many shops would let me spend a month doing a rebuild on an engine at say paying me $25. an hour?
Where at home the price can be agreed on and time is not a factor, unless the customer is in a big rush.
The bottom line is the shops can not afford to pay for quality, if they did they couldn't afford the lease on the building, any kinda profit means turnaround, yeah you say no ones making a bunch working on these cars, but if that is true then why do they charge so much then????????
And why so many returns and dissatisfied customers in the automotive repair business?

Somehow my initial question, 'What is a rebuilt engine' has evolved into the questioning the skills of the builder. I guess what I was really asking was..if you were buying a motor that the seller claimed was rebuilt, what would you expect to see on the build sheet?

Rebuilt means all parts refurbished to original tolerances/clearances. (I would recommend reading Wayne's book if you havent read it yet.)

I think of it as two types essentially containing as follows:

Top End Rebuild: Head/Valve job: One to six valves and valve guides; New head studs; New rings, fastners. misc oil/fuel lines/coolers/ignition/intake/ .

Complete Rebuild: all of the above plus rod bolts, bearings, chains. More machine shop labor required.

Regards,

Bernard,
I've read Wayne's book, Bruce's book, Dr. Porsche's book etc. I'm glad you posted what you did because I think that is what adds to the confusion with the term..'rebuilt'. So, lets say we have an SC with 125K on the clock. It leaks and has started burning oil. So are you saying that one would measure the wear items, replace what is out of spec and then call this a rebuilt engine? Somehow I look at this as a repair.

Hi Ron:

Not to get off track, but the skills of the builder are every bit as important as the parts list since all the new components in the world will not help if the engine has not been fitted and assembled properly,....:)

I've written some things about what constitutes a rebuilt engine here: http://www.rennsportsystems.com/1.html that you might find helpful.

Thanks Steve..I understand that this is a loaded and somewhat 2 prong question. I was curious to see what the congregation had to say.
..Ok, Steve..thats a great read. Did you just add that??

If they claim the motor is rebuilt I would expect a complete rebuild. A top end rebuild may be termed "its had a top end". Oh and after reading what I wrote earlier, you could add rod bolts to a top end job, because I know some guys like to have those replaced when doing a top end.

Regards,

Oh no,.....I wrote that 4 years ago when various folks called me asking about rebuilding their engines and wanted to know why we were more expensive than MM,....:)

Steve is right on mark. His Rennsport Systems does it correctly.

As I said above, “rebuilding” an engine with all new parts is easy – still it requires skill and knowledge.

The problem is that almost no one wants to afford a rebuild with ALL new parts. The “art” of rebuilding is the cost-effective balance between replacing everything in sight and the criminally negligent by some who specialize in advertising and BS.

So … how do you tell what level of “rebuild” someone is claiming? Clearly some are honest, competent, and skilled rebuilders – including Dealers, independent shops and DIY. We also know there are others.

The reputation of the builder tells a lot. The parts list gives a good indication of the thoroughness of a rebuild. Important is the documentation of the critical engine dimensions.

I think the term “rebuild” has to do with what is necessary to return the engine to reasonably like-new condition. In most situations the builder can better the original Porsche build because of 30-40 years of hindsight and improvements. Just as the original engineering is a compromise between competing engineering & cost aspects, so is any “rebuild”.

We seldom hear about the gazillion of proper and successful rebuilds. Everyone goes home happy. It is the failures that catch our attention. It is very worthwhile to examine these failures.

I think it instructive to examine every failed situation. This allows both the customer and builder (even if the same with DIY) to learn and realize how to improve the situation.

To end on a positive note, with good communication on the Forum, almost anyone can have a successful experience.

Best,
Grady

TTT....just stumbled upon this jem....

best explination I have seen on so many levels