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HKZ Bob's Avatar
 
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911 Rod Bolt Drawing Verbus

Hello 911 Folks,
if you want to know if your rod bold is strechted see drw.
here you have all data you need to reproduce these bolts.

If you find a supplier let me know.

bob


Old 03-13-2007, 07:30 AM
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Ausgezeichnet! Where did you GET that?

I understand the dimensioning and the tolerance figures, for example, the length of the threads is 12mm, and they are allowed to be 1mm longer, but no shorter, or the bolt is a reject. But what is the box with the arrow pointing up and to the right?

What are the specs for "midpoint, radius and shaft" what is Rz?

"100% checked for cracks
threads hardened and tempered and rolled
phospated and oiled"

As far as a stretch allowance, I don't believe that the diagram gives the stretch measurement under preload. The above bolt is apparently specified with a grip length of 67mm, +0.3mm. Just to put things in a frame of reference for US Pelicans, who are accustomed to decimal-inch measurement, if it's 0.3mm longer, that's about .0118" inches. FYI ARP specifies a stretch of .0117" for their bolts in a preloaded condition. They say all over the literature that if the bolt has stretched .001 in an unloaded condition it has permanently deformed. So what I think the drawing specifies is the manufacturing spec, not the working spec, but it is helpful nonetheless.
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Old 03-13-2007, 09:42 AM
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John I have my sources which are a my secret.

but if the bolt diameter is below 7.6 -0.2 that the bolt was strechted several times.

In production your aim is never to produce on the lower tolerance. So nominal we are 7.5 mm.
RZ is a value of the surface finish.


"Rz" ist die Angabe der Rauhigkeit zwischen der tiefsten Senkung und der höchsten Erhebung. Die Messung kann man sich mit einer unendlich spitzen Nadel vorstellen.


bob
Old 03-13-2007, 10:55 AM
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Bob,

Thank you for the clarification. We would call that "Roughness average" or RA. Measured with a diamond-tipped needle dragged across the surface. I don't understand "unendlich," infinitely pointed?
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Old 03-13-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by john_cramer
I understand the dimensioning and the tolerance figures, for example, the length of the threads is 12mm, and they are allowed to be 1mm longer, but no shorter, or the bolt is a reject. But what is the box with the arrow pointing up and to the right?
The Arrow indicates a runout tolerance. Basically the deviance in dimension accross 360 degrees of rotation.

Very cool Drawing! I'll look in my references and see if I can calculate the stretch required for the spec torque... still need a material though to get it right... Bob, any way you can get the specs on the material that is used for the rod bolts? Then we could nail the stretch for OEM bolts

Best regards,

Michael
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Old 03-13-2007, 11:52 AM
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The bolt quality is a 10.9.

What steel is used no clue.
Old 03-14-2007, 03:22 AM
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that works, Bob! Thanks. I'll be using the info from this table and see if I can get some calculations... have to brush off the cobwebs from the ME diploma. should be fun.

For spec see:

Metric Bolt Grade Specs

Best regards,

Michael
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:53 AM
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Michael

So you are going to calculate the percentage elastic limit for a rod of X diameter and Y composition? And then, using the nominal diameter and length of these bolts, come up with 0.0XXmm stretch target that - what - stops just short of that? So we can all use our stretch gaugesCool. Does the fact that the diameter varies up and down the shaft complicate the calculation?

Something also interesting to know would be to compare the clamping force that produces with what, say, 12.9 steel produces, and even better 220,000 psi steel or some even higher grade does.

I am surprised that the stock bolts are only 10.9. Why not 12.9? Flywheel bolts are that grade.

Bob

This is a bolt for the 70.4 crank rods? I see I measured some 66mm crank rod bolts at 65mm more or less. Got a deviation in length of 0.07mm amongst the 12 of them.

Walt Fricke
Old 03-19-2007, 03:36 PM
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Actually, I was going to go backwards from the spec torque and try and calculate the amount of stretch that the spec torque will produce on a nominal bolt. Then compare this to the material elastic limits and see where its at.

The changes in diameter do complicate things. But, start simple to get in the ball park, then worry how you are going to hit the home run.

Then I was going to put it into SolidWorks and run FEA on it and see how the numbers were different from what I might have calculated.

It will stretch where the stress areas (diameter based on a bolt) are smallest. Kinda makes sense that they engineered it to change the most where it is the least concerning... would not want it shrinking in the area where the two parts of the rod mate and allowing them to move.

After that... not too sure. I'm thinking you do not want to get too too close to the elastic limit as the dynamic forces might push you over the edge.

I'm loaded at work at the moment, but I'll get around to this Keeps me sharp

Of course, if I get an answer you can use it... at your own risk

Best regards,

Michael, who once was an enginerd and wishes he were still one
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
I am surprised that the stock bolts are only 10.9. Why not 12.9?
It is 12.9, it is visible on the right hand side of the drawing, witten on the head of the screw.

Sebastian
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:06 AM
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Walter on 2.2 the bolt lenght was 65mm.
Later the lenght was increased to 73 mm with the 2.4.

Greetings bob
Old 03-20-2007, 08:16 AM
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Sorry folks

12.9 is correct


I guess I am getting old,


Thank you Sebastian
Old 03-20-2007, 08:21 AM
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First pass:



I had trouble with the fillet radii. They are not fully tangent and the drawing gives no center marks so I just guessed I also have not put in the half round on the head, but should not be too too hard. I actually just got my shipment of new rod bolts so I'll compare to them and see what I get.

I actually found my book the other day so I might get around to some calculations on easter vacation at my inlaws Gotta keep the mind sharp!

Best regards,

Michael
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:32 AM
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With 1000 N thrown on the end of the bolt we get 3.998 E-10 m of displacement for a grade 12.9 material. That is... um... .0000003998 mm. Just need to get the right force on the end of the bolt created by the factory torque spec and we'll be in business. Or at least close to it



Best regards,

Michael
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Old 03-29-2007, 07:30 PM
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The torque is 5 mkp.
That is 50 Nm

bob
Old 03-30-2007, 09:58 AM
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OK, reviving this thread.

I bought a set of ARP rod bolts and measured the pre-installation length overall. I understand that grip length is measured under the head, but I didn't set up for that, as I wanted the measurement to approximate the same conditions (roughly) as stretch. So I used:

1) A micrometer with digital resolution in 0.001mm increments;

2) A micrometer stand to hold the mic while I positioned the bolt;

3) A ball micrometer anvil on one end, to center in the bolt's dimple. While this adds length to the anvil, the micrometer was zeroed with the extra anvil already on, reducing the need to deduct it from the measurment;

4) A 50mm standard was used to zero the mic.

5) Normal gaging pressure with the flat anvil on the bolt head was used. The ratchet feature of the mic was used, and the bolt rotated until the flat anvil "wrung" more or less against the head, so that there was no further opportunity to tighten the mic using the ratchet only.

6) As a repeatability check, I put all the bolts in a pile and randomly selected one, then measured it. The result was always within 0.001 of the previous measurement. I did this THREE TIMES to make sure I had the measurements repeatable and correct.

7) Measuring temperature was 74F. A little high, but I'm not going to crank the air conditioning to get it down to tool-room temperature of 20C.


Here are the results. This shows why you MUST mark and measure the bolts before you stretch them. ARP claims that permanent stretch of 0.001" (one thousandth) means the bolt is junk. The spread of preinstalled lengths means that you can't use a numerical standard to determine, because you would conclude that many of the bolts were junk, when in fact it's merely deviation in length.






The results are interesting: maybe the grip length is a tighter tolerance, but measuring the length overall resulted in some bolts being more than one standard deviation away from the mean. This is not an indictment of the quality of ARP in the slightest: It IS what I was able to measure.

Compare the "tolerance," or the difference between the mean and the individual bolt, to the VERBUS bolt at the very top of this thread, it doesn't even approach the 0.3mm tolerance specified for the grip length, which if added to the head length tolerance, could be a maximum of 0.5, a huge amount, for the length overall of 73mm. These are different bolts, obviously, intended for 2,0 liter engines, so the length is shorter.

Open to comments.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:53 AM
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John
I measured 10 new rod bolds of verbus
after I read your post. My values shows that 3 bolts are out of spec. I got my bolts from verbus direct. That means they don't care about quality gates for aftermarket.
The tool is aged bad maintained but they asking a lot for it. I bed with you that all OEM Bolts a poor quality in terms of measure.

I am tired of experience that there is so much junk on the market.


7.6 7.6mm +- 0.2 mm
Dia 1 Dia 2
7.55 7.58
7.58 7.59
7.58 7.58
7.58 7.6
7.52 7.55
7.59 7.59
7.59 7.59
7.56 7.59
7.57 7.58
7.55 7.54


Bob

Old 06-11-2007, 10:37 AM
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Interesting, Bob. I see you are measuring shank diameter.

Jim Hamilton did some measurements, posted them here:

ARP Rod Bolts data

I have taken the liberty of graphing Jim's data in the same way as mine. As you can see, the bolts have a similar spread.

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Old 06-11-2007, 12:11 PM
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John, & folks

I just figured out the I got the wrong rod bolts.
The total lenght is 73,00mm
I got a wrong set for my 2.7 project.

I need the smaller version with the total lengt of 69,00 mm.


Who got new stock and want to trade ?

Regards
Bob

Old 07-25-2007, 10:34 AM
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