DFI Engine Block Info/Rumors
 

A few interesting tidbits were circulating the internet forums (RC at Rennteam is particularly reliable with regards to Porsche in-house info) that I thought would be worth sharing.

Supposedly the 997 and 987 DFI engine will be of lower displacement across the board and have a wet sump, evidently 997 Turbo and 997 GT3 included. If true, this may foreshadow the end of the 964 based split case dry sump engine. The new DFI block will not be based on the M97, which, again if true, would portend a new block.

Late last year, I heard an unsubstantiated rumor that all of the future engines were going to be based on the 996-997 motors and the current GT-3/GT-2/TT engines would be discontinued to save money.

Until I hear that firsthand from a reputable source, I'll discount this as internet BS but I hope its untrue as that IMHO, would be an unmitigated disaster, based on what I've seen to date.

Rumors are like assumptions. I just cant wait for the flat 8 in the back of a 911.......

Imagine the cylinder liner and blown head gasket problems on that motor when pressure is introduced (or high compression)? Kiss Porsche motorsport *finishes* goodbye with that engine.

I think some of you have misunderstood me. M97 is the run of the mill 996-997 motors.

The DFI block will not be based on the M97 (run of the mill 996-997 motors).

I hope you are right.

I'm ig-nor-ant what does DFI stand for?

Thanks,

Michael

DFI = Direct Fuel Injection. It's the hot, new thing.

Still living in a CIS world ...

Brian

I think it's high time that Porsche went to a new architecture for the GT3/ turbo motors. Yes, it's clearly the best thing Porsche has going other than the CGT, but the design is long in tooth and that shows when one compares motor power to weight ratios.

Because the GT3 motor is based on an old design and has water jackets, etc added after the fact, it actually doesn't stack up very well with more modern machines on a power to weight bases- most of the competitors beat it by small to large margins (997S, M5, Z06, etc). If Porsche builds a new motor based on Carrera GT technology (already a few years old) you could expect the new GT3 motor to drop ~150 lbs from the tail of the car for the same power output. I suspect this is what's needed to hand it to the R8s and Ferrari 460s and keep the rear engine platform viable against the newest competition. So more power to them- by all means, make a new motor.

What I don't like to hear is no dry sump. Perhaps you can build a race motor that doesn't need one, but if this is a sign that the bean counters got their hands on the project this will be a huge step backwards. A step in that direction would virtually insure that I'll never walk into a Porsche dealer...

Thanks. hehehe I thought Motronic was the hot new thing ;)

Press Information, June 6th 2008

Porsche 911 Carrera / 911 Carrera S (Coupé and Cabriolet)

Weight down, stability up – the engine block
Despite their more sophisticated and complex technology, the new power units are approximately six kilos lighter than before. A two-piece crankcase with integrated crankshaft bearings is perhaps the most significant change in technology, replacing the former four-piece block with its separate crankshaft bearing housing. The advantage is not only a reduction of weight, but also a smaller number of individual components. At the same time Porsche’s
engineers have enhanced the thermal and mechanical stability of the engine, making it even more robust by converting the design and configuration of the cylinders from open- to a closed-deck layout.
This means that the cylinder liners so far freely exposed around the cylinder gaskets are now connected with the housing by a top plate comprising the coolant sleeves. In particular, this helps to give the cylinders even greater stability in their shape and design, always remaining perfectly round. Two further advantages are the reduction of oil consumption and, thanks to less friction, even greater fuel economy.
On both the 3.6- and 3.8-litre engines, both the crankshaft and the combustion chambers come in brand-new design. Stroke on the 3.6-litre has been decreased by 1.3 to 81.5 millimetres or 3.21”, bore is up from 96 millimetres (3.78”) to 97 millimetres (3.82”).
The clear focus on even higher engine speed demonstrated by the new engines comes out even more through the modified dimensions of the 3.8-litre Boxer engine with stroke reduced from 82.8 millimetres (3.26”) to 77.5 millimetres (30.5”), while bore is up 3 millimetres (0.12”) to 102 millimetres (40.16”).

Reflecting these changes, the effective capacity of the engines changes only by a small margin, 18 cc more on the 3.6-litre adding up to 3614 cc, 24 cc less on the S-engine reducing capacity to exactly 3.8 litres.

Fewer moving parts – new timing chain drive
The new engines no longer require the former intermediate shaft serving to drive the timing chains. Originally this shaft had the task to reduce the loads acting on the camshaft drive.
Now, through the use of new, highly resistant timing chains, there is no longer a need for such an intermediate shaft, moving masses and the weight of the engine being reduced accordingly.

2009 Porsche 911 Engine Oil Test Rig
 

Here is a video link
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc

You can read more about it here:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127890#2


Throw a last year's engine on there and the room would be full of smoke!

Bloody hell, that motor sounds, dare I say, DELICIOUS?

that sound is intoxicating... I am sitting here with a dry mouth in amazement & wondering how can I get one of those engines into my tub... ;-) WOW

No main bearings= disposable engine IMO. Throw it out and get a new one like a microwave oven.

Read the Press Information posted earlier in this thread.

OK, integrated crankshaft bearings. Replaceable?

I don't think that means the bearings are part of the block, but rather the bearing carrier is, just like the old air cooled engines rather than as a seperate carrier that holds the crank and is then bolted into the case.

Now if I just had $100K lying around for a new DFI 998 :(

As from MY2010, the turbo will no longer use the GT1 block, which has been confirmed via spy photos…

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220049280.jpg



I have seen the Carrera engine sketches on the 997-2 PET at my local Porsche dealer today.

PET shows that the bearing carrier is part of the block (8 main bearings) but the main bearings themselves are shells, not integrated as wrongly reported in the latest issue of Excellence:
Excellence should have known better :rolleyes:.

I have asked the parts dept to get me the length of the con rods as I’m interested to know what is the rod ratio of the new Carrera engines. However, the PET states that the long-stroke 3.6- and the short-stroke 3.8-litre engines share exactly the same con rods (same part number).

Anyway, the 9A1 block looks very good. I will try to post the sketches tomorrow or so.

Internet rumor has it. ........http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220053029.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220053064.jpg

OK - I saw this one coming 3 years ago - when the 997S was introduced. It comes close to the GT3 power, in a much more modern package. Dry sump is great for racing setups - but FWIW - Porsche wanted to get away from the dry sump years ago for no other reason than - it eliminated a source of potential oil leaks. This has always been a source of expensive warranty repair for Porsche.

On the elimination of bearing housing...the 996 based engines until 2009 had an internal main bearing housing that was seperate from the cylinders, kinda like our old school 911 based engines - on the new engine the block contains both the bearings and the cylinders. Add a closed deck, so the cylinders are supported both on the top and bottom - the new design makes for a much stiffer block for the crank to ride in and also eliminates parts - both good things. The newer engines have a very fancy oil pump setup- which looks alot like a racing oil pump - they are setting up the new engine for boost (closed deck), hi-revs (shorter stroke, bigger bore), light weight (less parts) and a bright future.

I am excited to buy my 2009 997S with DSG in 2018, if someone would order one in silver with no sun roof or nav - that would be great - you have a buyer in 10 years.

Don't get me wrong - I love my 911, but holy hell - the basic engine architecture goes back to 1963. Even with 4 valves heads and water cooling.

Hmmmm....wonder if I could get a 997S and DSG Transaxel in my 80 911SC?

I bet you guys there are parts in the new engine with 901 part numbers.

The specs are already out; its an Alusil block using cracked-rod technology and DME controlled oiling systems (wet-sump)

Here you go,......
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220064028.jpg

I'm guessing that this block is more expensive to replace than a set of Mahle P/C's,.... :)

Steve,

How did you get a 9A1 into your workshop already? The new cars are not even on sale in USA yet...

How do you know the block is made of Alusil and the con rods are cracked-rod technology? BTW do you have the length of the rods?

That would be funny, but expected. Kinda like how the crank bearings Im buying for my 930 say "996......"

LOL,..Sometimes its not what you know, its who you know,....:) :) The pic is from the factory.

Porsche released full technical specifications on the 9A1 engines and thats where they stated engine bore lining material as well as rod design. No mention of rod lengths,....

Is it just the bore lining or the whole block that is made of Alusil?

Where can I can get a copy of the full technical specifications? Is there a URL?

I don't know what alloy was used for the case castings, but the bores are Alusil. Thats a high-silicon material etched to make the silicon crystals stand proud. Pistons must be plated to run in such bores.

I bought the book from Porsche.

That parts diagram looks alot like the old air cooled engine. This 8 bearing design should eliminate the RMS leak problems.

-Andy

LOL,.....The RMS problem was the LEAST of all the issues and the new design should fix it.

The M96 suffered intermediate shaft/bearing problems, cylinder casting problems, head casting problems (along with a host of other things).

The 9A1 eliminates the intermediate shaft entirely and runs the cams directly from the crankshaft. In addition, the cylinders are an integral part of the engine case using a closed-deck design. One of the most interesting feature of the 9A1 is a very complex engine breather system that should address the serious windage and case-pressurization issues that all of the older engines had.

Only time will tell if this is a more durable engine than the GT-1 based one, but it looks to be FAR superior to the M96,... :)

thank you j p stein
 

i figured somebody would be able to show the layout, now i have a dillemma, get the current boxster/cayman with the boat anchor engine or wait a bunch more till this block shows up on the street in the boxster/cayman....

any rumours as to the engine capacity the boxsters/cayman will get when they get this DFI engine?

Just my .02 of course.
Never buy a new model car the first year of production. Let the "gotta have it" crowd do the R & D for the manufacture. Porsche is no exception to that rule......their "new improved" water pumpers (986/996) make that obvious. :(

Yeah, thats why I'm sticking with my high milage, oil leaking, tick'n and tock'n, mag case 2.7 ;)

The new engine looks very promising.

My 2.7 don't leak oil no more.:confused:
Gotta be a temporary condition.....It still makes all them clackety-clack noises tho.:D

Henry's advice for sealing the #8 bearing seems to have worked....the new bearing may have been part of the equation tho.

What has technologically changed that makes DFI possible now vice earlier?

Brian

Better electronics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

Thanks, John.

Brian

Don't forget the technology that allows the high pressure injector survive in such a very hostile environment. Combustion pressures and temperatures are quite a bit different than an injector sitting in an intake runner's cool environment.

Yet, DFI (or GDI,GDi) has been used for over 10 years by Mitsubishi, VW etc.
And if you read the Wiki link, it was used during WWII.