Which Valve Guides to Use?

Kvamme · 06-22-2003, 08:54 PM

I am soon going to have my 86 3.2L Carerra motor rebuilt and I have heard many opinions on what is the best valve guide to use. Some say stock. Some say use the SC valve guides, they will last longer. The book mentions custom guides by Technovance (I suspect these are $$). Anybody have a thought here?

snowman · 10:52 PM

Unless you are going to do the guides yourself, go with what the shop is using, as long as the shop is CE or Ollies, or equivalent.

They all use good quality guides. If you are doing this yourself, buy from the host. Most any bronze guide will last longer than the rest of the engine. But if you are doing your own, you should research this some more, a lot more. How do you intend to makd sure the guide is the correct size after installation? See a previous post on guides by me. Valve guide tools, K- line Tools. The company offers a complete line of valve guide tools and includes a lot of good info on guides. As to guides they can be obtained directly from mfg if you learn what is needed. Will save you some bucks if you invest the time to learn about them. Otherwise buy from host or similar source, they only sell good stuff.

Do not take any info on whats best from any web site or forum. Use mfg literature, tech articles, and shop recommendations for guide. Most of the rest of the stuff, like this can be second hand.

Doug Zielke · 06-23-2003, 05:46 AM

The expert head-rebuilder that did the heads on my 3.0, used Manganese Bronze guides. He told me they solve a lot of the wear problems associated with the OEM Porsche guides. I think EBS also recommends and sells them.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Leave it to the machine shop - they know best...

Just make sure you pick a good shop...

-Wayne

88911coupe · 06-26-2003, 06:11 AM

Wayne, et al,
Just curious as to whether there is a consensus on exactly what the best material/brand is for valve guides. I'd like to just trust the machine shop but I see no risk in asking them, specifically, what valve guides are being used in a rebuild. I have found over the years that even some good shops don't always pay attention to the latest information that comes from the enthusiast community.
Thanks,

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 08:18 AM

I agree with asking the question Buck asked. What companies make phosphor bronze valve guides and what is the type/model/chemical spec. on that material? I'm not saying that a good shop doesn't put in the best guides, just... "hey what is the model number of the material and who makes it?" Seems like a resonable question for someone in the process of spending $$$ on a top end. I was just surfing around this morning and started running into info. re. phos. bronze guide material.. and it seems there is some variety of formulations. I did some "search" on this forum and didn't find too much... if there is a thread on this please point me to it. Thanks.

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 08:37 AM

I don't know if this helps....

Some info. I could dig up on a Technovance valve guide... it looks like they are an importer/exporter. At one point looks like they had a website www.wristpin.com but doesn't seem to work.

App: 1965-1992 Porsche 911
Brand: Technovance Valve Guide
Part#: W0133-1640220
Description: Standard - Phosphorous Bronze (9x13.05x52mm). Standard.
Availability: In Stock
Usually Delivers in 2 to 3 days

Engine-Fits
$6.95 each

88911coupe · 04-09-2008, 08:56 AM

My heads are with Walt at CE, I have not asked him this question but I'm curious just the same. NOT to say I don't trust Walt, obviously I do but still would like to know, just for the heck of it.

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 09:17 AM

people on this forum know this...I would guess.... why is it such a secret? I'm like you... I am curioius and just want to know... if they all come from some guy in China working in his backyard... that's fine could very well be outstanding quality/etc.... as you say we just want to know.. sometimes I hate being an engineer... we sometimes have intense curiosity burning a lot cycles for not much gain.

Steve@Rennsport · 04-09-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcoles

people on this forum know this...I would guess.... why is it such a secret? I'm like you... I am curioius and just want to know... if they all come from some guy in China working in his backyard... that's fine could very well be outstanding quality/etc.... as you say we just want to know.. sometimes I hate being an engineer... we sometimes have intense curiosity burning a lot cycles for not much gain.

For my part, its no "secret",...

Everyone has an opinion based on personal experiences so one simply decides who one wishes to believe. We've used a phosphorus-bronze material thats made to our specifications in all our heads since 1979 with excellent results. They do not exhibit wear problems and do an excellent job of retaining oil to lubricate the valve stems. I must also mention that fitment and guide-wall finish are VERY critical to proper component life. This means that the guides must be properly installed in the heads and the bores should be honed (never reamed) to fit.

We don't do any other types of engines here so it really comes down to what you have most luck with and the P-B material has been very good. Like everything, its always a compromise to balance guide wear with valve stem wear but the newest valves have hard chrome stems and last a long time. I'm happy to say that we've redone very few guides since we began using this material and thats several thousand heads,....

JMHO, of course.

dtw · 04-09-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88911coupe

My heads are with Walt at CE, I have not asked him this question but I'm curious just the same. NOT to say I don't trust Walt, obviously I do but still would like to know, just for the heck of it.

I know Walt does great work and he is one of the nicest guys I've ever talked to, but four years seems a bit extreme for finishing a set of heads

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 10:21 AM

Steve,
I don't question anything you say... I'll try to ask the question in a plainer manner.
"Who is the original manufacturer of the pb guides you use? It is probably a combination of raw stock mfgr. and a machining company. We are not questioning if they are good or not... by all accounts they are good or at least good enough.
If you say... that you have been in business for years (and I know you have) and have finally found out a good source for valve guides and would rather all the other valve job shops not know. That is perfectly fair. That makes it a secret and is the point. If all the valve job shops want to keep this a secret, that is also perfectly fair. It is ok for you to respond with " I want to keep this a secret so quit asking".. The reason I'm asking is a friend just pulled his 3.2 for a top end rebuild and we want to have the machine shop use the latest thinking on best materials. I think that is what this forum is all about. In no way am I trying to get into some sort of pi__ing match on this just trying find out some info.

88911coupe · 04-09-2008, 11:08 AM

I think it's just that he's very thorough!
Just kidding...I sent them relatively recently.

Steve@Rennsport · 04-09-2008, 11:59 AM

Call me,..(my fingers are out of breath).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcoles

Steve,
I don't question anything you say... I'll try to ask the question in a plainer manner.
"Who is the original manufacturer of the pb guides you use? It is probably a combination of raw stock mfgr. and a machining company. We are not questioning if they are good or not... by all accounts they are good or at least good enough.
If you say... that you have been in business for years (and I know you have) and have finally found out a good source for valve guides and would rather all the other valve job shops not know. That is perfectly fair. That makes it a secret and is the point. If all the valve job shops want to keep this a secret, that is also perfectly fair. It is ok for you to respond with " I want to keep this a secret so quit asking".. The reason I'm asking is a friend just pulled his 3.2 for a top end rebuild and we want to have the machine shop use the latest thinking on best materials. I think that is what this forum is all about. In no way am I trying to get into some sort of pi__ing match on this just trying find out some info.

911 tweaks · 04-09-2008, 02:04 PM

please post this info as I am about to do over/have done 2 sets of heads and REALLY would like to know this mat'l info also. I want to use the right/good material as well!!!!!!
thanks if you can share... please??
Bob

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 03:40 PM

Steve,
thanks.. before I hassel you I'm asking Tom (guy rebuilding his 3.2 DIY) to get his butt on this bbs and start doing this for himself... so please stand by for a bit.
-h

hcoles · 04-09-2008, 06:27 PM

People, some folks on here that are in the profession of fixing/modifying Porsche engines have put a lot of time, money and effort into finding a given material that works. We can ask but we can't be too upset if they do not want to give that info. out directly. It might be better to contact people by phone and get the information or parts you need.

snowman · 08:42 PM

The folks that do heads probably have no reason not to tell you what material they use or even the mfg, its just that the mfg info is kind of like personal, but not really any kind of secret. The work is routine, again no magic there, everyone does the exact same thing. No special tooling is needed. What is needed is skill, experience and knowledge. You can have the exact same material and tooling as they have and fk it up. The skill level for guides is also on the low end, but guides are not all there is to rebuilding a head, again experience and knowledge comes in handy. Thats what you are paying the big bucks for, not the material.

The material will outlast you as long as its prepared properly. The material being ANY of the ones offered for a Porsche. If there are groves for oil, the valve will ride on OIL and NO wear will happen.

The engine machine shops have nothing to worry about as long as they have the skill and knowledge. THey could even write a book on how to do it and still not affect their business.

hcoles · 04-10-2008, 05:30 AM

Jack,
Thanks... well said... I was just thinking all else being equal we might as well be using the "best" guide material. From what you say it sounds like some are putting some sort of grove in the guide material maybe like a spiral. I don't recall people mentioning this on this forum but haven't searched, sounds like it might be a good idea. What shops do this?

cgarr · cgarr's Garage

Just use a good oil and keep it changed, Thats the cheapest and best thing you can do for these engines. Not sure about everyone else here but at only 5K miles a year I may never see another engine rebuild on mine?