Coil-On-Plug for Aircooled Engines?
 

Does anyone have experience with, or photos of, coil-on-plug setups for the 911-based aircooled engine?

I know the water-cooled cars use these, I wonder whether they are suitable for use next to the high temperature cylinder heads of a 911. Often times you see direct ignition with coil packs and short wires running to Beru-type connectors.

I have checked the websites of most of the shops and haven't seen anything for sale which is why I am curious.

Herr Professor Von Cramer,

We are working on custom valve covers for these cars to accomodate a C-O-P ignition setup.

We have done some of these using Motec Engine Management that works out just fine but the main issue is securing the ignition modules to the upper & lower valve covers properly.

Dr. Ing. Steve,

I was hoping you would chime in. . . I think our man Peter Dawe has done something like this as well. . . hard to find photos out there.

It looks like the Boxster uses a Beru coil with a separate connector to the plug. I wonder what the distance from seated on the plug to the surface of the cover is. . . could one weld a couple studs to the aluminum cover to hold the coil? Hmmm. . . .

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1212786148.jpg

I cannot seem to find a good picture of the 996 valve cover design. Tony (911quest) can you help, I know you tore a boxster engine down.

Hi John,

When Bill and I were disussing my build he mentioned that he had done a few and if I were interested. He knew that I like a very clean uncluttered engine bay.

I said no.:D

I am going to do it, I hate spark plug wires, distributors, advance curves, rotors, condensers and all that crap.

I was planning on just modifying the existing valve covers (drill out the holes, put in studs and go from there), but Dr. Steve's stuff may be interesting.

I also have to plug my distributor hole, I have seen Clewett's solution, don't like it all that much and was wondering if a press in aluminium disc with a couple of small retaining screws, all loctited and/or staked in, would look better and still be dry.

My only reservation is that Motec is expensive, but maybe they will make a stripper version for us street guys....

Dennis

They do make a "cheap" version that is VERY good: M48, but it doesn't have sufficient outputs for C-O-P ignitions. One needs M600 to do this and that one is not cheap.

When it comes to Engine Management, you get just what you pay for,...:)

When I built the latest iteration of my motor a few year ago I was all set to do cop ignition, but my funds dried up... so I put a quick waste fire setup together.
I think the coils were almost $100 ea then.. I couldn't swing $1200 for coils then.

Bill and I were talking the other day, and we are going to do COP on his monsters powerplant... Also Dawe has a few out there running COP

I believe Musante Motorsports and Rudtners are among the few who have attempted this with success. I have only good things to say about both of them, and I personally own a car that was converted to EFI by Bill Rudtner.

I was going through the Jeg's catalog the other the other day, thinking the same thing. Maybe there are U.S. COP that are lower cost? I know the Ford DOHC engines have a pretty deep recess for the spark plugs similar to Porsches.

John - try this site for dimensions of the module - looks like type PT

Ignition coils at Bosch Motorsport

Regards
John

That is a nice dimensioned drawing that I can use to see where the coil would sit on the valve cover-- thanks.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/ignition_coils/Single_PT.pdf

sorry to bump an old thread, but I currently have 6 beru coils wired up to a 3.2L motor that I'm trying to get running with Megasquirt. I was curious if anybody has made progress with modifying the valve covers? I was going to make a bracket, but the valve cover idea sounds like a cleaner solution.

Thanks,
-Ed

While the coilover setup is desireable I find the Crane CDI unit to be the best solution when considering cost vs performance.

there are several threads on this. some have used zx7 cops or audi cops effectively on 911 motors using an ems .

I'm using the Audi/VW coil-on-plug. I drove at least 4000 miles this summer, both street and track, with coils from the scrapyard. No problems at al.

COP Valve cover
 

This is a new setup developed by Rothsport in Oregon. You can call Jeff Gamroth for details. 503 885 9626

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1257903978.jpg

Seems to me it would be cheaper to just fabricate an adapter ficture for existing valve covers that bolt to the existing fasteners. Billet = BIG BUCKS.

Billet does not need to equal big bucks for something as simple as a valve cover. With the right equipment valve covers can be made pretty inexpensively....

Cheers

I was just over at Pro Technik in Houston and they have a 3.2 based race motor that uses Motech EFI and Toyota Tundra COP. This is a single plug motor running 10.5 :1 compression making 325 RWHP! They just welded a stud to the valve cover and bolted the coil to it. Very clean! Call Sam and he'll share the details.

I don't use any extra fasteners... Haven't fallen of yet.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1243546343.jpg

But the Rothsport solution is beautiful!

Fair point, but it seems that the set up costs and machine labor get translated into retail sales at a pretty high markup on billet parts. I just can't see spending $600 on valve covers, when a retainer plate can be made cheaply with the addtional advantage of looking relatively stock when compared to something like this:

http://karl.wilen.us/images/ValveCovers.JPG
Imagine Auto Re-Releases Billet Valve Covers - 6speedonline.com Forums

Although beautiful, they are flashy. The RothSport units are IMHO, kinda ugly, to boot.

Kenik,

I'd concur with Jeff A; billet items do not necessarily translate to a high-dollar investment however,........in some cases, the price reflects the number of hours invested in engineering, prototypes, materials, and the volume.

When it comes to manufacturing, things are not always as simple as it might appear. :) :) :)

The Rothsport ones are prototypes and do not necessarily reflect the final product. Further, these will be designed to assure that the coils cannot fall off the plugs under racing conditions on the top as well as the bottom.

From you picture, it appears your units connect more "firmly" the Beru units kind of just lay there just sitting on the valve cover.


Lindy911... do you have a number to contact said "Sam" ?
Might be worth it to just have him weld some studs on for me.

Making a bracket for the driver bank is going to be a pain. Some tight clearances there.

For those that are curious...
89 Carrera with the factory 3.2L
Have a clewitt engineering pulley with trigger wheel and sensor setup and distributor hole block off.
Using OEM beru COP units with custom made harness. (Had to get the clips and rubber boots from a guy in NewYork that dealt with OEM porsche items in Germany) -that was a pain in the @$$
Using Megasquirt with MSnSE to try and run a EDIS type firing sequence. (two at once) Driving the coils with 6 BIP coil drivers mounted top side of the case.

I had finally dialed in the signal from the trigger wheel and was starting to test the coils when the ign switch and relay under the seat went on me. Got tired of dealing Porsche wiring and lack of diagrams, so we opted to re-wire the ignition.

This was about late July, then August University took over my life as well as work. Haven't really gotten to touch the project since then. With recent promotion at work, much less "hands on involved" (management) and having to drop Differentials this semester has given me some time to try and get this car going again.


-Ed

Not really firm, but they don't wiggle around in the valve covers. They do grip the spark plug pretty good. My point would be that it's not necessary to engineer for a trip around the moon when you aren't going further than the the local pub...

If I would install them in the lower covers I would add a bracket for safety.

yeah, it appears a bracket/support solution is definitely in my future.

Why not coil-near-plug with LS2's. There was a recent engine for sale that had this in a twin-plug format. The upper coils were mounted what look like a modified OEM GM LS bracket and the lowers were mounted directly to the engine tin. LS2 give you huge spark energy and are extremely cheap.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258048959.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258048971.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/494913-fs-ultimate-2-7l-hot-rod-motor-price-reduced.html

Randy's motor is a beast - if he used them, I trust them. A great idea.

How much more power is a result of this set-up?

Zero would be my guess.

I saw a nice setup on a 911 motor this year that came from Peter Dawes shop. Simple and lightweight.

have any pics of it by chance Chris??

Steve knows I understand this! :) The price comes down to the number of units one expects to sell to amortize all of the development and prototyping. I have looked into making valve covers and the dead cost with our machinery is not much at all, but cost recovery for development is what adds to the price.

Cheers

Thanks, Kenik. Absolutely no problems with my set-up. Power about the same, but much better spark and extremely reliable - no one part to go wrong.

Since my build more options have become available. Chris Powell is now using a surprisingly available part to make a coil on plug.

Does anyone know where to find a list of coils that have 'drivers' built-in versus those that need it on-board the ignition control module or an external one like the Ford EDIS solution used by MegaSquirt?

I don't know about Motec, but many of the other available systems I've seen do not have a driver resident in the control module. Sure would be convenient to be able to use coils with it built in instead of having to mount an addt'l set of components.

I get it - I have appreciable experience from my past life in building parts in SolidWorks, multi-axis CNC machinery, investment (among other types of) casting and a full gamut of maufacturing and materials science expertise, as well. I also get the amortization stuff - I have done tons of COGS and ROI analysis, which is why I look at some of the products out there and just say WTF.

It seems so many solutions are solving problems with a 1 ton air hammer, when a handlheld hammer would do, for much less effort and investment. CNC machined valve covers to me seem like the 1 ton hammer, self retaining COPs like the Denso units (even with bent metal retiner brackets for the bottom bank) the handheld hammer.

I agree with you 100%. For this application, I think a self retaining coil or a simple bracket is the best solution, not doubt.

But if one is offerring billet covers in their product line it make sense to have them suitable for COP as well. Plus, if a customer needs to replace their existing warped covers anyways, they may step up and buy a product like this over the factory stuff, assuming it is priced appropriately........

Cheers

Well put.

Magnus,
What coil packs are you using (part number?) and where did you source the connectors?

Coils are VW/Audi that's used in their 1.8t, among other.

6, Coils: 06B 905 115R (R was the latest version at the time)

6, connectors (empty): 4B0 973 724

12, female spade connector pig-tails: 000 979 133 A

24, wire sealing grommets: 357 972 741 A

6, two-part plastic boots for connectors: 6X0 971 921 A

Everything can be bought from your local VW/Audi dealer.

Just an FYI, the stock buru 1.8T coils have a bad history of failure, when my 3rd coil failed I'd had enough and swapped them out for Hitachi units. I can't remember the part number (3-4 years ago), but it can easily be found on the B5 forum at passatworld.com.

My passat is really my wifes (mom's taxi) and sees at least 30,000km/yr.