I'm digging into the engine now. Doing what I can when I find time I can. Valve covers and 930 tensioner oil lines removed. Oil cooler removed. Exhaust extractor removed. Right side chain housing components removed and housing as well. Numbers 4-5-6 intake and exhaust valves (6) removed, numbered and boxed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221690600.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221690954.jpg
To romove the 46mm nut off the cam end I use one of these sockets. Be sure to use this BEFORE you remove the tensioner from the chain so it will have a stop point to break the nut loose. I have a 46 mm Crow's foot socket but this is better on the pull off. I wouldn't recommend using an impact wrench. I slide a 2 foot pipe piece on the end of the rachet handle and it works fine. Crow's foot socket may be better for returning nut to the came end for adjustment reasons.

Get one of these little German made 5mm sockets to remove the rocker pin bolts. It fits perfectly between the rocker journals as you can see here. And of course use the 8mm allen on the other ends.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221691469.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221691865.jpg

Haven't found anything unusual yet. Guide springs look okay.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221692644.jpg

I guess the only thing left that could make that rattling sound would be a busted valve or two or busted springs or piston or rings. Again, though, my retired Porsche racing friend and I agree it didn't sound like a bottom end problem. What will be the worst..... is finding nothing wrong... then it will drive me NUTS-O ! ! ! ! ! I"m not worried. It' just life and you just fix or rebuild. Engine has about 60k from a 2001 0r 2002 rebuild. I got the engine from the owner of a reputable shop in Riverside when it only had 20k on it. So, 40k in 7 years isn't too bad. I don't drive it everyday either. Well, I'll know tonight or tomorrow what is may be. Wish me luck. Has anyone else been at this point. The noise is not the tensioners, I replaced with a 930 kit a couple of weeks ago and is why I've gone in this far. I'm open to suggestions and related. I'm pretty good at this sort of thing but never say I've learned everything and glad to share any expertise I may have acquired. Regards, jOsH

Sorry, I don't have an idea about the noise.
Perhaps if I could have heard the noise in person...

Just so that I am on the same page as you: I have only heard of "Carrera" pressure-fed tensioners. Are your "930" pressure-fed tensioners the same thing?

I have heard of people using "Turbo" tensioners with the safety collars and these were not pressure-fed. They were the best of the self-contained tensioners and can be used to update older engines while staying period-correct without the oil lines to the chain covers.

Hey Max, You all moved in for school? I came Sunday to the Ventura show....not many people. Heard there was a 60 years of Porsche thing going on at the same time in Santa Barbara.... bummer.

As to the tensioners.... what you are describing is not the ultimate "fix". This is a kit that is called the "930 oil pressure fed" tensioners. What you are describing in using "safety collars" is only for keeping the old style tensioners from failing completely. They still fail but save your chains from jumping track.... keeps them somewhat tight but should be replace immediately. I just took those very safety collars & tensioners off my engine and replaced with a (Carrera) 930 tensioner set on my engine two weeks ago.
If you don't have extra oil lines feeding directly into and through the chain housing covers to the tensioners then they are NOT pressure fed. Let me try to find a couple of pictures. I'm surprised you don't know about this difference? Good to hear from you. Pulling the heads off tomorrow. Hopefully nothing too bad underneath.
Regards, JOSH


found the photos.....>>>>>

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221719447.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221719890.jpg

The old style with collars...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221720577.jpg

Hi j0sh,

I am all moved in at Cal Poly. San Luis Obispo is a nice, pretty town.

I know all about the Carrera pressure-fed tensioners. I have them on my car. I have just never heard them called "930 pressure-fed tensioners". Pelican sells them as "Carrera". I think:confused:.

Some high-revving racers don't think the pressure-fed tensioners can hold up to the stresses of 8000 RPM+. They use solid tensioners in that case.

People concerned with original look on early car restorations use "Turbo" (non-pressure fed) tensioners with the safety collars for the best performance while retaining the stock appearance.

This is all just a matter of different people using different names for the same part.

So, did you have the "Jerry Woods" mod done to your Carrera/930 pressure-fed tensioners?:)

Regards,

Max

San Louie... is great. They call it SLOtown because it's easy going. Be sure to check out Market Street Night on Thursday or Wednesday. Also the mid State fair up the road in Paso Robles is fantastic ..... I say Peter Frampton there with price of entry. Still has the chops on the guitar.
I got the 3.0 down to the barrels and I think the problem is either in #5 wrist pin or #5 valve spring or guide. Will post more detail later tonight as I get further into it.
Later, JoSh

Good luck!
Be sure to keep us up to speed!

JoSH,

I will definitely check out the events around town.

You didn't say if you had the "Jerry Woods" mod (internal piston stop to prevent collapse) done to your tensioners. I do not have it on my car but I was just thinkng, while you are in there...:)

All the Best,

Max

Well you guys here's the scoop on my engine. I will let you guess at first what is wrong with "peeeecktures".

Does one of these look different to you?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221798474.jpg


Okay, how about now?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221796640.jpg

My #5 Piston has the marking of half the intake valve. Heads are fine and wrist pin is tight. But here's what I found the noise to be. The rod is loose at the crank end and I can physically move it 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch allowing the intake valve to hit the piston crown a little coming of the revving.....which is the noise I hear at that point.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221797412.jpg

I"m going to remove the piston, check the torque on the rod and if it's at specs and still loose, then I will remove with a magnet method I've only SEEN done.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221798695.jpg

I will check the crank surface and switch out the rod bearing..... at least that's the plan. Have any of you guys (and girls) done this rod remove / replace without having to split the case? Or do you have a special magnet method you'd like to share. Well at least the mystery is over. I was feeling like Agatha Greasy for a while there..... in De NILE. SOme of you will actually get that bit of dry humor.
Let's hear from you. Relayswitcher JOSH

I was actually at the Nile in July.

to get an idea how big this pyramid is.... see the full size travel bus in the distance?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221797703.jpg

Hey Max. I'm familiar with Jerry Woods as an engine builder.....what is this modification. Tell me or show a picture. Josh (will I got the engine apart)

Refer to post number 3 in this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199819&perpage=20&pagen umber=3

Hope this helps.

-Max

I would have to guess that if the rod is that loose on the crank, the bearing is totally beat out or the nuts came loose. In either case , the crank is probably damaged.

Josh, has that engine been opened up before? Maybe -- trying to be positive -- whoever was there last (an inattentive builder) failed to correctly torque the No. 5 rod bolts.

Also, there are certain cylinders and pistons that live a more difficult life than the others. Henry Schmidt has commented on which ones they are.

At least you've found the evidence trail. Now the question is how deep the rabbit hole is going to take you. ;)

Brian

I'm 99% sure the engine was done correctly. Built by a reputable Porsche shop and this engine was originally built for the owner of the shop. They even use the same machine shop I use..... who have moved btw to AZ. But they are so good I will drive the extra 2 hours to get my stuff to them when needed. What happened to this engine is I hadn't driven it much and decided to head out to downtown Palm Springs near where I live.... 25 minutes each way. Later on my way home and 8 minute from my drive way I decided to let loose at 115mph until I saw a CHP and slowed down. As I approach my exit 2 blocks from my house.... I made a right turn and the engine rattled on the right side..... alot like an empty paint can with many marbles rolling in response. The rev was smooth and no knocks or missing. I got it home and parked it. Later thinking it was the whale tale grille which WAS loose and tightened it, I drove around the block and no noise. But then in the driveway with a quick rev I heard the noise again. With a friend helping, I listened to the engine with a stethoscope and heard the noise mid-way between cylinder #4 and the right chain housing.... mostly at the housing. So I decided to use a "Carrera" pressure fed kit on the engine. Did all and drove the car and same noise in same area.
Took the engine out and upon draining oil.... only 3 qts. came out. Removed valve covers and began picking at every thing or anything unusual as I opened it up step by step. AND>>> as you see from the previous photos, #5 piston had a "C" shaped mark on the hump half which turned out to be made by the exhaust valve hitting it, but not very loud with the engine so quiet. So it was either the piston was loose or the rod is loose on the crank allowing this "union" of piston and valve. Piston is fine and rings are good...... Butttttt.... the noise....TA DA.... is the rod moving off the crank about 1/16 of an inch.

So now I'm going to check the torque on the rod bolts, and then take the rod off the crank (with a clever "magnet"-ism and check the crank journal. If it looks okay and mics okay I'll just place a new bearing an do all in reverse. I will remove rod and get back to you all later. Anyone taken a rod out like this. Tell my how you did it, please.
Appreciate you guys and the comments. It' didn't get driven but a few blocks after hearing the noise, so I'm staying positive I won't have to open up the case. And if I so, I'll just do a complete rebuild.... why not?! Then you can advise me as I go along. I've done 2.7s but not a 3.0.. so will be some good experience. More than a "community organizer anyway.... LOL.

I feel sorry for you!
I would do the rebuild...
That way you can make a real good judgement of the crank, and in the process get a motor in VERY good shape...

Good luck to you!

How many miles were on the engine since the shop rebuilt it?

I'm curious to know whether the piston kissing the valve was a result of the rod bearing wearing out or loose rod bolts. Did you have an over-rev?

You'll have to disassemble the left bank to get to the rod bolts for No. 5, unless I'm missing something.

Brian

Some of you coming in late: 60k on rebuild in 2001. Engine is disassembled on left bank down to piston removed on #5. I seem to recall from several Porsche friends of vastly more experience saying, "#5 is the last of the 6 to get oil. Seems someone asked that recently .... "if one piston seems to go out more than another." I believe this answers that. I'm sure it may vary between models, I suppose.

Here are photo results as promised.

Bearings are toast.... burnt toast.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221887341.jpg


Can it get some mayo on that grinder?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221887466.jpg
Make that extra mayo.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221887517.jpg

I need a new coating.... like Pepto Bismol.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221887643.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221887686.jpg

Looks like a rebuild for me. I suppose I will have to regrind the crank. Maybe I can get away with a surface polish and not have to buy a 10 over set of rod bearings. I remember the last 2.7 I built ..... 10 overs were $398. a set... Ouch!!.... I'm just getting over my Egypt/ Greece vacation spend.... BIG OUCH!!! but a nice ouch. Ollie's Machining moved from Santa Ana, Calif. to Lake Havasu Arizona. 2 hours further drive for me but worth it.... just wish I hadn't sold my boat last year.
So there you have it my Pelican brothers & sisters.
In mourning, JOSH

I'm half kidding about being down. I don't let car probs get me down. I really do look at it as an opportunity to build a 3.0. And like our Norwegian friend says then I will know the crank will be good all around and in turn the engine is nice and newish.

There are certainly bigger problems than a spun rod bearing.....

But why did your rod bearing spin? Were the rod bolts tight? Were they over stressed at 115mph and stretched? Were they stock rod bolts? It would be good to see them and maybe send them to someone for analysis.

I don't think lack of oil would cause the bearing to spin. It doesn't even look like it was over heated. Our engines get a lot of oil flow to the critical parts. Short of a complete blockage in a gallery, a few psi at Porsche volume on a bearing journal would be enough to keep the bearing surfaces lubed; maybe not cool enough, but lubed. The big-end bearing oil is not circulated, it is pressure fed and then drained out of the sides of the journal. Again, I don't think your problem was heat related, it was more of a clearance issue.

I still think you dodged a bullet and found the minor problem before the rod "grenaded" and destroyed your engine. I once lost a rebuilt small block Chevrolet truck engine because the kid (he admitted it) forgot to torque the rod bolts. I was on the freeway and I heard tick, tick, tick, then boom and a rod went through the block and the pan. There was an oil slick about a mile long just south of St Louis, MO.

This just goes to show how strong our engines are. That rod end was being hammered by the crank on one end and by the piston (lightly) on the other end. Amazing...

Thanks,
Mark

Well the stretch of road I was on was 110 degrees and little oil may have done just that...stretched the rod big end. Did you see the previous photos.... how does the crank journal look to you. I can feel the center stridation but the rest are smooth to my fingernail anyway. Between my house and downtown Palm Springs... it was HOT outside. I may consider an exterior cooler this time around. It's fairly simple really..... no oil .....you get heat.. at least that's my slant on it. I'm open to other toughts. Only 3 qts drained out of engine AND sump. Just bad luck not check that time, and I just didn't pay the attention to the oil level I should have..... being I hardly drove the car much I got stupid I guess.
This late in the game I learned on average Porsches use about 1qt. per 1000 miles. There must be a Porsche oil "Burmuda Triangle" somewhere. I will be checking for any other discrepancies as I do the tear down. #4 & #6 rods feel solid on the crank. Like a I said # 5 is the last to get oil on the firing order.... so I'm told, but hey..... if I'm wrong, someone let me know otherwise.
I have three engines I think I'll build at the same time. 1970 911T, 1977 2.7 (case bored to 2.7 from a 2.4 and all parts ready for assembly.) and then of course this 1981 3.0L.

sorry to see that,it doesn't look too good. Was there a drop in oil pressure when the rattle started? A little 50 grit sandpaper on that crank and you're good to go..... and maybe some JB Weld! Time for a complete rebuild. Best of luck!

Sorry mate!
Seems like you are taking it well, fortuneatly!

As you say, this is a oppurtunity, as well! -Built a bad-ass motor, and enjoy!!!