2.0 Who large?
 

Hello, I maybe lucky. I am trying to buy a 2.0, from what I'm told, it's from a 1969. This engine may get stuffed into a VW Super beetle. I'd like to know how large can I make this engine, in displacement. I would like to have the crank welded to stroke it, I would like very much to go large displacement. Please fill me in on liter size and weakness of the 2.0.

I have a turbo that may be used in this project. All answers welcome.

I'm sure you already know that rebuilding that engine will cost more than the VW is worth. I also see from your other posts that you are using a Porsche trans. Why not just get the whole car? In the end you will have one screaming VW, but it will still be a VW. If you want more displacement you can use a 2.2 cylinder kit, or just buy a bigger motor. Bad idea to use a turbo on a magnesium case.

Turbo on magnesium case is nothing new, look at the VW Beetle engines, most of them use mag case and it lasts ok. Obviously stock heads (on VW) are crap regarding flow so the cylinder pressures stay low.

If you shuffle pin the case and have decent control of the fuel and spark for boosted engine(=a good engine management, NOT carbs or MFI), you will have no problem.

Revving engine to 8500 rpm and having 300 hp is MUCH harder on the case, rods and crank than getting that 300hp on 6000rpm with 1bar of boost.
BTDT on many Porsche engines.

This is a lot of money for doing it "hard way". The 2 liter case is very weak and welding a Porsche crank isn't the best approach. I know all of the old VW hot rod tricks being cut from that cloth, but some of those tricks are symptoms of necessity that don't translate well to a Porsche 911. It will be MUCH more cost effective to build a Type 4; the motor will be lighter and will be just as powerful.

What displacement are you looking for?

You could build a 2.0 into a 2.8, it just costs money.
You could get big horsepower out of it, it just costs more money.
You could get it to be reliable, it just costs even more money.
How much can you afford?

Thanks
 

Hi, thanks for all of your responses. I am also building a type IV turbo engine. But I'm told nothing beats displacement. So welding stroking the crank is a bad ideal? I was able to buy a basket case 2.0 engine, I really like the 911 look.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...ferBlau_02.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...bug_edited.jpg
I don't know exactly when I will be able to start the build, but I sure like the look. So back to the bore and stroke. If I stroke the crank and have a company like J&E make the pistons how much of a stroker could I build? What is the largest bore on a case like this? Since I have the crank, having it welded and nitrated and stroke, sounds do-able.

My interest is in going large on the bore and stroke, but again I don't know squat about this case:mad:

And I thought I had a monster bug... WOW!

-Michael

That is one SICK build!

The 2 liter 911 is just the wrong basis. If you want displacement, it would be far cheaper to buy a running 3.6 like the on in the pics. 2.7 is the leeding edge for a 2 liter motor and I would never run more than 240HP on a 2 liter case. On the 3.6 motor, the sky is the limit.

I am with you. There is no substitute for cubic inches.....a 2.0 liter is capable of 240 HP but......you could spend a lot less.......I mean , a lot less on a build and come out smelling like a rose.
BTW, that is a fantastic looking piece.
Keep going!!!

Numbers?
 

I talked to a person today, he said the 2.0 I should not go larger than 85mm on the cylinders. I think he said 70 on the crank, something like a 2.4 liter. He further said if I go larger the cylinder studs could pull through. Well than 2.4 it will have to be. Ok next the heads, well I'm missing one and a connecting rod. I think one of the hole must have went south but the rest of the parts were do-able (ah I hope:D) Mind you this project is way down the road, but since I have three super beetles I'll shelve the 2110 type one for the 2.4 and the look:D. So if you all would give me some info on how much stroke I can get away with. O the guy said crank are not that hard to come by, is this true. I was thinking, since its a forged Porsche crank have it welded stroked and re-nitride. So what can I do to the heads for breathing, I will turbo it for a little more help due to a lack of cubic inches:D
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...air/004_21.jpg.
I won't keep this tread going on for long, once I get a notion I need to do something with it. Wish me luck.

You can safely go to 2.7 liters on that engine given a later 70.4mm crank/rods, 90mm RS pistons and S cams. About 200 hp or so, basically the same specs as an RS engine. But don't just slap it together.

If you plan to add boost to the engine, you'll have to go another route to keep it together.

Sherwood

Wonderful, thank you. I would like to turbo it, using a small turbo a DSM T-25 upgraded to a T-28 on the boost side. Can you speak on the "another route" when turboing this engine?

I don't recommend using some kind of hybrid turbos on aircooled Porsche engines as those create heck of a lot backpressure and thus you will get loads of detonation and no power.
Instead you should use biger turbocharger than you normally would use on similar size watercooled powerplant.
Here's the cracker: why do you think 930 turn out such a laggy (but nevertheless, fun) machine? :)

And besides, I strongly recommend to twin-plug the heads for boosted car as this reduces the need for advance and you will get more power at the same boost levels.

On the engine side, I would build an engine to Porsche Turbo specs; e.g. aluminum case, low compression forged pistons, etc. And a turbo engine will have excess heat to reject, otherwise terminal engine death is inevitable.

On the turbo side, I would study and research using Corky Bell's Turbo book to guide you in turbo and intercooler selection.

Not sure your application, racing or street, max. power or long service life. You can't have it all, but some is a lot better than naturally aspirated if done within reason.

Oh yes. A healthy budget does not hurt at all.

MHO,
Sherwood

wow
 

Thanks again for all of your insight

Early 2.0 heads
 

Good morning. Concerning the early 2.0 heads, can anyone tell me if it is at all possible to build up these heads? Well what I mean is, since I have five and I am in the process of sourcing the sixth, I thought about getting the later 2.4 version or the later 2.0 heads with the shallow combustion chamber (I hope you all understand my meaning:D) I want to have larger valves install and do some mild porting work. I don't want a lot being as cheap as I am, so a little will do. I hope to go with 74mm crank and 90mm pistons. Would someone share with me as to larger valves, if this can be done. O the head must be cleaned and inspected in order to find out if I have not just bought someones trash:rolleyes:

All things being equal, combustion will be less finicky (detonation, that is) with later heads.

As for larger valve sizes, 2.2-2.7 heads will provide that. The dimensions might be less important if the engine is boosted.

Sherwood

I wouldn't run 90 mm cylinders on magnesium case. Stick with 84mm ones or go with 3.0 case.
With 70.4mm crank and 84mm cylinders you'll get 2.4 liters which is a less than 2.7 but a lot stronger and that is more important than 300cc displacement when boost is in game.

2,0 heads are just about the worst choice from a performance vs. dollars standpoint. Stock, they have 39/35 valves and wheezy little 32mm ports.

Sure, they can be CNC ported and have larger valves installed to resemble 69S heads, but you won't have much change from a $10,000 bill AND the heads will be more prone to detonation than later heads. Also you will have to have the mating surface cut, 84mm and later cylinders have a different seal that requires irreversible modification of the sealing surface of the heads. (but there is an adapter to go back).

There are no later 2,0 heads with the shallow combustion chamber-- all the early ones have a 72cc chamber and different valve angle. In 1970 the combustion chamber was revised, 68cc, and the valves were made larger.

What you probably want are a set of 2,7 heads that will work better with 90mm cylinders. They aren't that hard to find or particularly expensive. Good luck!

Alright then, thank you very much:)

2.7 Heads
 

Ok, I now am the proud owner of a set of 2.7 heads. Will my 2.0 mag case work/fit 90 cylinders?

Oil squirters, will this help in keeping the temps down?

Do you suggest using a 74mm crank and 90mm pistons.

Why do you want 90mm cylinders?? As I said earlier, that 300 cc won't help much regarding performance but hurts the strength of the engine A LOT. 74mm crank won't work, only 70.4mm one.

Seriously, you are going after this backward. The 2 liter mag case is crap without SERIOUS (expensive, Bill Gates scale) machine work and even then has a HP limit of about 240. Plus, 90mm P/Cs are way too big for this weak case. You could get away with maybe E cams, but a turbo? No way. You are taking the path to building a 10K mile motor.

BUY A NEW CASE. A 2 liter Aluminum case would be so much better and would be able to hold every bit of power you toss at it.

Kenik,
A little harsh on the mag case, eh? But you're correct in that effvee should start with an aluminum case.

effvee,
Kenik is correct. Do your homework first before buying stuff that may not be compatible. Suggest purchasing B. Anderson's 911 Performance Handbook and Wayne's Engine Rebuilding book along with Corky Bell's book I recommended earlier. They have some helpful guidelines for increasing power with suggested engine pieces.

Sherwood

Nah, not really - just experience talking. :) Having a 2 liter 'S' wakes you up tp what you can and cannot do. I researched this for over a year, looking into RSR shuffle bolts for the case, pinning the mains, balancing the guts, destroking the crank and in the end, it ended up being a fools errand in trying to spend unnecessary money. The 1R/2R cases are a great and LIGHT, the lightest ever made. If you want a 2.0-2.4L liter NA screamer, as long as you do the normal case mods like squirters and pins, keeping the 240HP limit in mind, they are a top choice.

I am not harsh in saying that a 1R/2R case with a long stroke crank and turbo induction would absolutely deconstruct one of these cases. FWIW, I am currently building a 2.25L turbo on a 2.4 CIS 7R case, so the mag love is there! BUT, 7R mag cases are built for over 300HP with additional webbing and reinforcment throughout. After all, the 2.1 RSR turbo had a mag case. :eek::D:cool:

I am merely suggesting that folks look closely at what they want to build and choose the parts appropriately. The 2 liter mag case is good for very little beyond 100HP/L limited to the stock spigot bore.

Keeping the 240HP limit in mind, one could include naturally aspirated 2.7s as well.

Still concur re: turbo and early mag case.

Of course all of this is in our humble opinions.

Sherwood

Yah, totally agree, but as mentioned above would limit the cam to an 'E' or similar grind with small ports. I'd not use 'S' cams with 90mm slugs and jugs, though. High revs and removing that much meat from the spigots just isn't a good idea on the 1R/2R.

Ok then:-)
 

Hello all, it a fact, I just don't know Porsche. Glad to here sound input, and thanks. I was trying to morph the 2.0 into a larger displacement. I'm going to slow it down some. I have Corky Bell's book, however the other two I don't. I was on the hook for a pair of 2.0 heads. But gave up due to you alls input. I bought set of 2.7 heads. I'll wait and try and get the case next. What do you all think about used 2.7 cylinder and pistons?

Can anyone tell me a price range of a 2.7 case Aluminum?

Will the 2.7 case handle 90mm pistons? and a 74 crank?

Let me be clear, I'm going to shelve the 2.0 and try to sell the case.

Of all the early cases only 2.0 had aluminium version.

2.7 case is available only as mag version and 74mm crank doesn't fit there.

Let's clear the air. Early aluminum case was 2 liter, but can be bored for 90mm P/Cs. The longets stock crank you can run in this case is the 6 bolt 70.4mm crank. You could send a 66nn crank to Marine and offset grind the journals to 2" Clevite bearings and use custom rods to get an even longer stroke, but you are then again going after it the hard way. The best bet here is to buy a 3.2 case or motor. There's TONS of info on the turbo forum on turbo coversions for a 3.2.

Wow
 

Hi, big thanks for all of your help. I believe I have a decent set of 2.7 heads coming. I now know I must stick with the 2.7 case also and it crank, due to your help. The guy that I bought the heads from quoted me a price of 900.00 as a short block. Presently I'll wait due to also dealing with a legal bad buy in Germany. So OK it will be a 2.7
Again thanks, man I just wish I had made up my mind when I had the moldex crank and Cunningham rods made for my 914:(.

2.7 Heads
 

Hi everyone, well I didn't want to start a new thread on this same topic, though it is now questions on a 2.7.

I have the heads coming. I want to know how much larger can I go on the 2.7 intake and exhaust valves other than stock. The seller has shown the heads in a disassembled state. So I believe I can expect valve guides and possible valves.

Should I just stay in the stock sizes?

Has anyone used Beryllium seats on there project?

Thanks in advance

With a boosted engine, I would think valve size would be less of an issue in terms of power. Larger valves weigh more too. While the valve sizes are all the same, depending on what version heads you have, the port dimensions are different. You could perform some port work for more flow.

If you had started with a base 930 engine, their heads feature an oil cooling passage for the valve guides as well as larger valves (but not compatible with the 2.7 crankcase).

Sherwood

Good morning Sherwood, I wish I could have started with a 930 engine too:D, however man Porsche stuff is sky high.

Thanks

Man, you are a masochist! (In a good way!) I hope you can come up with a combination that works without spending too much money!

I know in the fow-vay community changing seats no big deal. For whatever reason it's a HUGE deal in the 911 community-- you almost never hear of seats dropping, and the seats aren't available on the loose as a part number from Porsche-- so they are usually never changed out.

Here is a link to a thread about this-- by using the search feature you can find a ton of information. Many have been down this road before, don't worry.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=424829&highlight=del+west+titaniu m