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3.6 964 Project Engine - ideas wanted
I started out with this on the 964/993 forum but I think they are all asleep over there! SmileWavy Let's see if real engine builders are a bit livelier ;)
A partly dismantled, mostly complete 1992 3.6 964 engine (type M64/01) has found its way into my garage and is about to become my next project. I have modified and rebuilt several 3.2s and 3.3 turbos (engines and cars) but the 3.6 is new to me so I am looking for some ideas for modifying it. So far, I’m comforted by the fact that the engine itself is pretty much the same as earlier models, but where I am in new territory is with engine management, intake and fuel systems. At present, I haven't decided what car it will end up in - that's next year's project, but I am considering a 914 (lot's of work and a bit of a challenge) or a nice mid 80's Carrera (more likely, and obviously much easier). My aim at present is to rebuild this engine with a bit more power than standard (of course!) so that it will be suitable for street use and occasional club events. That means no over-the-top internal mods, but I am prepared to look at engine management, EFI and headers. I am looking for ideas or best-practice directions in the following areas … Heads Ports look reasonably large. Is there much to be gained by porting them? This is a zero cost item because I always do this myself. I took the heads off last night and was surprised to see that they were installed directly onto the barrels without gaskets (just like previous models). I thought there were some issues with heads on these early 964 engines leaking and it was fixed with gaskets. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention that day! Should I be looking at doing anything more than lightly remachining the head and barrel faces? Camshafts Which camshafts are practical alternatives to the standard 964 cams for good road performance? Inlet manifold and blocks The size of the phenolic blocks on 930 motors is a real constraint to inlet porting. At least the 964 blocks are larger, but there’s still not much wall thickness available for boring them out larger. What’s the usual way around this? The manifold itself is a bit of a monstrosity. I have the aluminium version. I am prepared to consider other options if there is a reasonable benefit. Oil cooler This engine doesn’t have the crankcase-mounted oil cooler that I am familiar with on earlier engines but the crankcase looks like it could be drilled to accept one. Is this the case? If I fit a cooler here, I guess I would also need to modify the air ducting over the engine as well? Exhaust I’m open to suggestions here. I don’t know how effective the standard system is and whether there is much to be gained by using after-market headers. Ideas, opinions? Clutch I have the standard 964 flywheel only with its loose starter ring gear; no clutch or pressure plate. What are my options for mating up to a 915 box? Use a 3.2 clutch and flywheel complete? Engine management and fuel injection I don't have injectors, ECU or engine harness. A few other intake and fuel injection parts might also be missing, so even if I keep it stock I will need to spend money in that area regardless. Therefore, it might be an option to go to a new EFI system. The twin distributor looks like it has been full of water for a while and may need a bit of work and one of the fuel rails is bent, although most of the fuel hoses look OK. Therefore, I am prepared to look at other alternatives as far as engine management and fuel injection are concerned. Are there some options that are proven to be easy to set up and tune for this engine? I could also scrap the ugly inlet manifold and the phenolic blocks and go with ITBs with some kind of injection system. Is this done? I know it is a leap backwards as far as technology goes, but even a couple of Webers might be entertained (look good and sound nice!). I know there’s lot’s of separate little subjects here, but each time I search on something, I get bogged down for hours reading about all sorts of interesting stuff which doesn’t actually answer my questions. I would really appreciate some responses from others who may have been faced with similar decisions in the past so I can form a general direction for this rebuild and start shopping for parts. This is how it arrived home (in the back of son's Suzy). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258595091.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258595606.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258595653.jpg |
Rennlist has huge 964 forum, did a quick search and found these threads:
Racecar Project - Race Engine #2 Racecar Project - Race Engine #2 - Rennlist Discussion Forums 9m 4.0 litre 964/993 engine in development http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=252445&referrerid=19642 964 engine upgrades http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=247242&referrerid=19642 |
Me too......
Hi Bill,
I've got the same motor.and the same basic need for ideas. My '90 Carerra 2 is in bad shape and I'm starting to plan a substantial refurb including a complete paint job and serious ovehaul of the motor. The motor is original, but was rebuilt by the PO to address cylinder head oil leaks. It has a couple of broken head studs right now and is leaking oil (they didnlt upgrade the heads/cylinders to address the root cause of theleak - just rebuilt as per original). So while I'm addressing the repair issues I figured I'd see whay modest improvemnts I could make. Mostly for day to day road work but if I can ever get ANY free time I'd really like to get back onto the track too. So basically, this message isn't of ANY use to you at all - but I will be following it, looking for ideas and sharing any ideas that I might come up with. Doug |
Hey Bill,
I am in a sort of related situation. I am working on a 3.6 rebuild as well, although mine is out of a 97 993. I did a lot of reading and thinking (always dangerous) and came up with the path I am now taking. I wanted to get a little more out of the engine, without going up to 3.8. I decided to go with RS intake valves, and RS cams and sport exhaust. I will chip the ECU and be running RS clutch with LWF. I hope this helps in some way. The consensus from what I could find was that the larger valves and RS cams were the best bang for the buck. Cheers, Emerald |
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Progress so far ...
Inlet manifold and blocks I have decided to go with ITBs to replace the original inlet manifold. I am currently looking at using throttle bodies from Suzuki GSX1300, BMW K1200, Kawasaki ZX12 or Truimph 675 Daytona. These are crazy cheap on theebay. I will make up manifolds, linkages and filters to suit my final selection. None of this is going to happen overnight, but I'll document it and post as I go. Heads I hadn't considered changing valve size as Emerald has done. Might look at that, but sounds pricey. Rather spend $$ on engine management (I don't have an ECU to start with). Haven't really formed an opinion on which way to go with head sealing. Some say stick with cylinder-to-head (as original), others want to machine haed/cylinder to use a gasket. This won't be a racing engine ;), so I am leaning towards just re-facing top of barrels and head face a couple of thou. Are the head stud problems of earlier years resolved in this 1992 engine, or should I be adding Racewear studs to my shopping cart? Camshafts Thanks for your input John. I'll PM you for more info. Oil cooler I haven't been able to confirm that I can mount an earlier model oil cooler on the crankcase. It looks like it's just a matter of drilling holes in the right place and fitting a thermostat. Can someone confirm? Exhaust Still open to suggestions here. Don’t know how much there is to be gained by using after-market headers on this engine. To some extent, I guess it depends on what happens to induction and cams. Engine management and fuel injection I have found some really interesting and useful info on coil packs (coil-on-plug) systems and I am going to do this after a bit more research. Pulled one from my Toyota last night just to get a feel for how it looks/feels. This has to be the way to go :) I am shopping for an engine management system that will support this, so if you have one on your shelf that you don't need anymore ... |
Bill,
Did you do any reading on the megasquirt pages? www.msefi.com That computer will run your engine and more, including the Coil On Plugs (COP) ignition. I think the Porsche flywheel teeth and position sensor would have to be profiled for use in megasquirt, if you wanted to use those crank positioning inputs? Doug |
Thanks Doug. Yes, Megasquirt is on my list to check out, however I'm concentrating on sourcing throttle bodies and researching coil packs at present.
Only so many hours in a day! Looked at a Triumph 675 Daytona today in a local workshop to confirm throttle bodies are sized OK and suitable. Then pulled the pin on two near new throttle bodies today on theebay (total $275 shipped to Aus!). Can't go wrong at that price, even if I change my mind when they turn up. :D If I can't get injectors to suit, I'll plug or resize holes in TB and fab my own injector mounts and fuel rail. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1259055791.jpg |
Pinned for some 964 / 993 education…. thanks
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Bill
Why not keep the 964's oiling system: mount a good oil cooler up front in the center of the valence, where it will get a good flow of air (maybe purchase an aftermarket spoiler set up for this). Figure out an adapter to get oil from your tank to the engine. But if you get desperate, I can get up off my d*** a** and measure the bolt spacing on the older style cooler. Though you are right - you'd have to backdate your engine cover. And maybe the engine oil thermostat also? Does the 964 even have one of those? I can measure the OD of the older style easily enough, as I have several spares. Chances are pretty good that the earlier cooler will fit, since guys put the oil filter piece from 964 and 993 motors onto their earlier cased 911 race motors. Walt Fricke |
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With RS valves, VRam and 7500 rpm redline we ended with 330 hp (300 at the wheels dynojet) on race gas with an extremely wide torque curve- over 275 ft lbs from 3200 through 6200. ITBs would let you go with a bigger cam for more top end power, but piston clearance and streetability become issues. I do like the ITB idea- VRam is very good for low end torque but a bit heavy, or there are things to recommend the '95 993 plastic intake if low end torque isn't a big deal and the ITBs prove difficult. I'd also suggest bigger RS sized valves if budget allows- the stock 964 valves will cut power. Exhaust- the 993 was very good, the 964 not as much. You should find a bit of power with good headers. I'd consider building the motor to rev to 7500+. It's difficult to do on the cheap, but area under the curve is significantly improved. |
Some thoughts,.....
1) Its REALLY nice to have that factory pressure-side filter mounted on the engine for protection. I've seen a lot of motor issues saved by that thing. 2) If you wish to run the engine safely to 7K+ RPM, you need better rods, rod bearings, valve springs & retainers, and a host of oiling modifications for durability. Sounds like a fun project; good luck,..... :) |
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I found a couple of threads related to this. Searched "oil cooler 964 retrofit". It seems that it is quite easy to fit an earlier 911 engine-mounted cooler and thermostat. Just need to drill a few holes. I'll also need to play with ducting airflow to the cooler, but that will involve modifying the 964 shroud rather than using the 911 version. Because I am just building an engine at present, (with no specific car in mind) I don't want to restrict my options or be forced down the track of having to fit a front valence cooler and valance. I can still do that if I want/need to. I think the engine cooler is simple to do and not money wasted at this stage. I have actually committed to buy a cooler from another Pelican today. |
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Headers are on my list of things to watch out for. I hadn't really given any consideration to larger valves. The standard ones looked pretty large to me! I'd be interested in more info on the valves if you could steer me in the right direction. How much bigger are the RS valves? I PM'd John regarding more info on his cams but he hasn't responded yet ... SmileWavy |
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2) As far as building for extra revs are concerned, I am going to fit new bearings anyway - what should I be looking for in lieu of standard. Are standard rods really that much of an issue - I thought that std rods with good bolts would be enough for up to 7500? Oiling mods are something that I am interested in. I'll do a bit of a search on it, but if you have some pointers on most effective way to go, my ears are open. :) You are right, it is a fun project. I am quite enjoying working through some of the challenges associated with ITBs and coil pack ignition at present. |
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As Steve mentioned when I did this I paired the with springs, ti retainers, etc to get to 7500 rpm, but the fact that you're on a tight budget sounds like it rules out reving the motor that high- I agree you'd need rods, bolts, etc. Probably not worth it given what you're saying. Quote:
I love ITBs but unless you do the pistons (for a big cam needing more clearance) and rev the motor to higher RPM I'm not sure ITBs will pay off on the street. On the other hand I'm also interested to see what you come up with for an ITB solution... |
Update
Camshafts :D
Have decided to go with John's DC21 grind. Should give extra power to 6500-ish. Decided not to go for a higher power band as costs just become exponential to build in reliability over 7K. That's not what this engine is about. Heads :) They are in the shop for new guides at present. Decided to stick with standard valves. RS valves are each 5% larger than std 964 valves but I think the $550 + shipping + seat machining costs could be better applied to headers where gain might be a bit more than 5%, especially with higher lift camshaft (+4% inlet lift and +9% exhaust lift). If my valves needed replacing, RS valves would be first on the shopping list - unfortunately they are good! :( My logic may be flawed, but it makes sense to me! One problem I see with the exhaust ports is that there is very little room for enlargement due to the gasket ring groove. Is this groove normally welded up when bigger headers are fitted? Head Studs :confused: A question I asked earlier - Are the head stud problems of earlier years resolved in this 1992 engine, or should I be adding Racewear studs to my shopping cart? Any comments? Coil Pack Ingition :confused: No decision here yet. Still open to practical suggestions. Currently being discussed separately at thread Audi/VW coil packs question I still like the idea of separate coil packs (coil on plug) but open to other ideas. Oil Cooler :) A standard 911 cooler and thermostat is on its way from another Pelican. I'll need to modify the 964 engine shroud in the region of the cooler, so I'll post some results of that modification later. ITBs and Inlet Manifold :) Still waiting for ITBs to turn up, but work has started on their manifolds. ITBs are 44mm and manifold and ports will be same size right into head. Clutch and Flywheel :confused: Still looking for best way to go here. Considering that engine will most likely be attached to a 915 box, I presume that a complete higher spec 3.2/915 clutch setup would be the easiest fit. Yes? Engine Management :D Megasquirt II seems like the only way to go! The weekend approaches ... more parts cleaning :(, |
Bill
Have you confirmed that the engine oil thermostat from the pre-964 cars will fit and work in your later case? If I have this right, for your case Porsche dispensed with this thermostat so the pressurized oil always flowed through the filter. Since you are putting a filter on, it would benefit from the protection the thermostat gives it against overpressure when the oil is cold. In pictures, the 964 appears to have just a cover plate with some sensors over that hole. When running an RSR system (filter, not cooler, for earlier cases) you have to install a special plug into the thermostat hole to be sure the oil always flows through the filter, and that the cold oil short cut hole is always blocked. Does the 964 case have this short cut passage permanently blocked/not cast/drilled? Walt |
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I don't have access to the crankcase at present to check the oil passages, however I recall noting that the casting looked the same as earlier engines but some of the passageways for the cooler and the thermostat weren't drilled through. When I do this mod, I will document exactly what needs to be changed and post here. |
BJ - right, cooler.
Odd how we can mistype our thoughts. Good that we can usually deduce what someone meant when they do that. Walt |
Bill, any update on you project??
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260367329.jpg Triumph Daytona 675 throttle bodies arrived earlier in the week so I have been pondering mounting and linkage options. Manifold is pretty straight forward. Actually there will be six separate "manifolds", as per rough setup in pic below. I made up 18mm insulating spacers and 8mm aluminium mounting flanges using an old plastic inlet injector body as a template on my trusty woodworking router bench. The spacers have O-ring grooves both sides. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260368865.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260368885.jpg The tube is 50mm OD, 3mm thick. This is 44ID which is exactly the same as the throttle bodies ID. I will port the inlet ports from 42 to 44mm to match. For mounting the throttle bodies, the six OE rubber sleeves that connect the gigantic 964 inlet manifold to the injector mounts just happen to be the correct size to fit the underside of the throttle bodies and the 50mm tube. Too easy! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260368574.jpg Injectors are next on list to sort out. I doubt that the Triumph injectors are going to flow enough, so I need to find larger capacity injectors of same physical size, or I need to go to something more commonly used on Porsches and build in some injector mounts on my inlet tubes (most likely). I don't have the original injectors for this engine, but I do have the fuel rails. No progress yet on coil packs (pic above has Toyota Kluger coil packs fitted) but I am still undecided on which type to use. I am not changing the head studs. Fromwhat I can gather, standard OE steel studs seem to be adequate for non-racing applications. Now that my heads are cleaned up, I can see the ceramic inserts that Tyson referred to in my post 1-3/4" headers on 964 ? I don't see any way to do much with the exhaust ports except for a bit of cleanup just under the seats, around the guide and at the exhaust port. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260370307.jpg |
ITBs Update
Xmas sort of interrupted progress but I have made a little progress with the ITBs.
I have ported out the Triumph throttle bodies to 44mm on the bottom side to match butterfly diameter and diameter of the al tube I am using for the intake runners. They were oval shaped to suit the Triumph head ports I think. Got some tube bent during the week so I could fabricate the outer runners with 35mm offset. Cut it up today and nearly ready to weld. Just have to figure out how long to make the runners. They are way over-length in the pics below. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263645269.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263645291.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263645322.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263645348.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263645379.jpg |
Looks nice! Do you have that much clearance above? Will this go in a 911 engine bay?
Doug |
Bill
Porsche curved the end two tubes on its manifolds when it switched away from the Solex. The available Webers (and then Zeniths) had a different center to center spacing than the 911 ports, so the manifolds got changed. A friend who had a flow bench and wand confirmed what one might expect - the center manifold flowed better. Not a huge difference, I think, but measureable. It is a shorter path, and a straighter shot. One of the mysteries of Porsche design, to me, is why Porsche did not have Bosch make its MFI throttle bodies on a wider center spacing. Only thing I can think of is that they wanted to use the same air filters. I don't think there is a clearance issue with the #3 or #4. Weren't for the Solexes. Am I right that these Triumphs could be spaced apart fairly easily? Mostly some modification to the connectors for the butterflies? On a related aspect: Usually one sees throttle bodies whose bores are larger than the port sizes. So the runners are tapered. I have assumed this was intended to increase velocity at the port. Guys with flow benches and lots of engine modification experience are always cautioning us not to make the ports too large. You have read all this too, I am sure. Could you share your reasoning for using straight tubes (beyond the fact that I don't suppose one can purchase or easily fabricate tapered ones) and believing they will work well? A quick review of Smith and Morrison's text did not uncover discussion of the relationship between TB bore and port size. Length of induction seems to get the most examination. There is a short mention of a Jaguar slide valve system, where the manifold tubing looks to be equal to TB bore, but is not related to port size. Walt |
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I have already had a rethink on this based on other comments here and in this thread. I am now going to fit the injectors immediately above the head flange. This has the added cost advantage of allowing me to use the standard 964 fuel rails and hoses and standard size filters. I will also be keeping the runners as short as possible as there isn't any overwhelming advantage to making them longer. In fact, as I read it, I will be better off keeping them short for driveability and response. The TBs I am using don't easily lend themselves to being spaced wider (by 35mm). It introduces other complications with linkages and filters, so I am prepared to live with the trade-off of bent outer runners. You are right, tapered pipe is a bit hard to come by! As it happens, the TB diameter is 44mm which happens to match readily available aluminium pipe with 50mm OD and 3mm wall. This size also allows me to use the standard 964 rubber manifold connector sleeves between the botom of the TBs and the runner. The 964 inlet ports are 42mm, so I will be opening them out slightly to match the incoming 44mm. All in all, I think I am getting close to my aim which is to setup a set of practical ITBs for less than 1/4 the price of off-the-shelf kits without a significant difference in potential performance. I have yet to tackle tuning and Megasquirt, but I suspect that will be a whole new story in a month or two. |
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I have since decided to make them as short as possible. |
Walt wrote,
On a related aspect: Usually one sees throttle bodies whose bores are larger than the port sizes. So the runners are tapered. I have assumed this was intended to increase velocity at the port. A quick review of Smith and Morrison's text did not uncover discussion of the relationship between TB bore and port size. Length of induction seems to get the most examination. There is a short mention of a Jaguar slide valve system, where the manifold tubing looks to be equal to TB bore, but is not related to port size. Walt, This is a complex subject, and a compromise between low speed drivability and high speed output. The taper is there to boost low rpm gas velocity. There is a compromise between boosting low speed velocity and lowering the mach index (choking point). This is explained thoroughly in Lumley's book "Engines", and stroke, piston speed, and cylinder displacement are also involved. If the taper is too great on a short manifold, the turbulence can effectively reduce the section of the pipe more than 25%. The port size is usually matched to the valve head size, the throttle plate to air flow needs. One rule of thumb for port size is 0.81-0.83 of valve head. On the N/A 911 with 49mm valves, port size ranges from 34-40mm or 0.69-0.82 (911SCRS 43mm-0.88), the 917 was 0.86. Weber recommends venturi size based on cylinder displacement and rpm, a 600 cc cylinder would need 40 mm @ 6000 rpm and 52mm @ 8000 rpm. Injector placement is another separate issue. One surprising reason carb engines can produce more power than injected engines is better atomization at WOT. Moving the injector away from the head gives more time for the fuel droplets to be atomized by the high speed air stream, and pointing the injectors against the air flow was also used for the same reason. CIS injectors have an ingenious rattle pin that shears the drops for better atomization |
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Doug |
The limit for intake runner port taper appears to be 1.7-2.5 percent decrease in intake runner area per inch of runner (a 1-1.5 degree taper). Too much may be worse than none at all.
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Bill when you get it running you must post a video on youtube, I can't wait to see the outcome. I am doing an ITB project on my 3.8 build and your thread is inspiring me greatly
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I can't believe two months have drifted by - I figured I'd better put in a bit of an update.
Actually, work, holidays and other commitments have seen this engine sit around with not a lot of progress, however, one major step forward is that I will soon have a car for this engine. It will be a G50 Carrera. Now I can move forward with a clear(er) goal. Camshafts John's DC21 grind cams are sitting on the shelf now. Heads New exhaust guides fitted and ports smoothed out and blended with inlet runners (from 42mm out to 44mm). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268197424.jpg Coil Pack Ingition I have sourced 12 Toyota coil packs but haven't done anything with them yet. Oil Cooler I now have a standard 911 cooler and thermostat from another Pelican, so I have been looking at how to modify the crankcase and shroud. Looks straight forward but it will involve making up a special air duct to modify the 964 shroud so that it more resembles the 911 shroud in the area between the fan and cooler. ITBs and Inlet Manifold The intake runners are fabricated now and are away for final welding of injector ports and fuel rail brackets. I have received two oval K&N filters, now I need to fab the filter base and top. I'm going to try doing that in carbon fibre - should look OK. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268197372.jpg Clutch and Flywheel I will be using either the standard G50 clutch and flywheel or an uprated unit. I have to look into this soon so I would be interested to hear recommendations. Engine Management Still planning to use Megasquirt but haven't progressed on this yet. Not much will happen for next few months, but I'll update here as things develop. I am madly shopping for goodies for the "new" Carrera which I will collect in the US in April for a month's driving holiday. When it gets shipped back to Perth, I want to make sure that all the heavy, bulky stuff is in the container (= free shipping :D). |
Update
And another month or so has drifted by!
I need to retire :) then I might get a bit more real work done. Not much progress, but I do have the intake runners completed now. All runners are matched and aligned with the bakelite spacers and head ports. Brackets are welded on for standard 964 fuel rails. Cost of parts for ITBs and intake runners: - 2 sets of Triumph Daytona 44mm throttle bodies $220 - aluminum tube and plate $40 - tube bending $120 - bakelite for spacers $15 - welding $120 Total: $515 Obviously this doesn't include my time, but that's half the fun of it :) I still have to make air filter bases and rain hats in carbon fibre (cost = my time plus about $80 in materials) and linkages/cables. Nothing more will happen for at least the next two months because I will be touring around the US of A collecting cars and parts, generally being a tourist, and catching up with a number of Pelicans for a beer or two. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271166392.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271166481.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271164564.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271164600.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271164658.jpg |
signing-up.
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My thoughts, you should tie together the runners so you have a stronger foundation, also why you did not shorten more the runners?, good luck, cheers.
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I have about 10mm extra height at the top which I plan to cut off. The height is mainly determined by the minimum radius of the bends. Thanks for your interest. |
Overdue update
Holidays and working away from home have really slowed progress but I am now starting to get a few things done with this engine project.
Carbon fibre air cleaner bases and tops for the ITBs are nearly complete. They just need a final clear coat to bring out that nice carbon fibre look. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1284276686.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1284276717.jpg Mounting the oil cooler to the 964 engine required a bit of thought. Searching forums didn’t come up with any real details of how to do it, only a few references indicating that it had been done before, so I will document the details of how I did it here in a separate thread. I am sure it will help others wanting to follow the same path. |
Bill do you still have your manifold flanges and injector rails to fit the 964 manifold?
I am in need of a set. Matt |
Matt,
I am re-using the injector rails, but I do have some manifold flanges on the shelf. I think some of the flanges might be cracked. Tonight, I'll check them out and email you some pics. |
Bill,
That is a beautiful job. Great attention to detail and some pro fab work. Regards, Al |
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