86 mm AA cylinders?

[chriss914]

Hi Guys,

I have a weber carburated 2,2 E engine that need new Piston and cylinders and found these for sale at Ebay: "Porsche 911 86mm JE Piston & Cylinder Kit 2.2 & 2.4."

I know itīs not Mahle but what I read in other posts it should be O.K/decent quality on these "AA" and the JE-pistons I have found to have good rep.

But my main concern is if there are any problem with going up to 86 mm instead of 84? (this would make it a 2,3 instead of 2,2 wich is good)

Anybody have tried these and know what CR you can expect on a 2,2?

Any opinions appreciated!

Thanks!

Chriss

[brads911sc]

Call Henry at Supertec. Think he has discussed AA on here in the past....

[neilca]

I have been looking at these birals also. Everything I have read is good. I think they would be great in your application. I am looking for a higher compression for the race track.

[ratpiper71T]

Also wondering about these. And +1 on talking to Henry. I've read posts where he at one point said they were improperly designed IIRC. But I think he's found some way around that?

[chriss914]

Thanks for your input!

Iīve read all the post that i can find on these and the one thing about these 86 mm is that it should be bad for the Birals to be so overbored, because they then get week.

At least is that the recommendations Iīve seen for the OEM cylinders that not to bore them over 85-85,5. Now i dont know if this "AA 86 mm" are at the same thickness as OEM from the beginning.

What I understand is that these must have been produced over at least some years so probably someone must have tried them.

But is there someone out there that have tried them and what was the result?

[brads911sc]

How much are they?

As a frame of reference, EBS charges $895 for replated Mahle cylinders. Liftetime warranty on the plating.
If you have no Cores its $1495 ($600 Core charge). When I looked at AA they were $1000. So you'll buy chinese cylinders for a Porsche 911 to save $495? and if you have cores the AA are actually more...

I was looking at 95 MM and 98 MM, so not sure if its the same on the smaller sizes...Should talk to Don at EBS.

For what its worth. EBS also sells AA so they can give you their opinion...

[chriss914]

Thankīs for Your information!

I will pay $1100 for them, and they will give about 10.5:1 CR on my 2,2 Engine.

The thing is that itīs around what you pay for a set of JE forged pistons alone.
(And then you have machine work on your existing cyls. to make them OD)

This is the complete description of them:

"THIS IS A SET OF BRAND NEW 86MM HIGH COMPRESSION JE FORGED PISTONS, ALUMINUM BIRAL CYLINDERS, PISTON RINGS, TOOL STEEL WRIST PINS, & CLIPS. THESE ARE HIGH DOME, HIGH COMPRESSION PISTONS THAT ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED. THE CYLINDERS ARE PERFECTLY HONED AND FINISHED ON A SUNNEN CNC HONING MACHINE TO MAKE YOUR ENGINE A GREAT PERFORMANCE PIECE. BUILD YOUR ENGINE WITH HIGH QUALITY PARTS AND MAKE BIG HORSEPOWER!

PISTON: 86mm FORGED JE PISTON
COMPRESSION HEIGHT: 33.91mm (1.335")
PISTON TOP: 11.43mm (.450") HIGH COMPRESSION DOME TOP
ENGINE TYPE: PORSCHE 911
ENGINE SIZE: 2.2L AND 2.4L
CYLINDERS : ALUMINUM BIRAL
PISTON RING: HIGH PERFORMANCE RINGS: Top 1.5mm 2nd: 1.5mm Oil: 4mm
MANUFACTURER: AA PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS & JE PISTONS"

[brads911sc]

$1,100 is pretty cheap. My bill at EBS was $2350. $895 (Replated Mahle/98mm, $600 (Core) and $855 (JE Pistons). Not sure why you would need to pay $1100 for JE's. If I had the 3.2 95 mm cylinders instead of the 3.0 95 mm ones it would have only been 1750. Not that much more than your 1100 in the big picture...

Talk to Don at EBS may be able to make some recommendations.

Be careful with Ebay. At some point in the past they were selling ones that didnt pass Quality Control by people like Henry on ebay for cheap... Cant recall who it was... so your source may be fine...

Originally Posted by chriss914

Thankīs for Your information!

I will pay $1100 for them, and they will give about 10.5:1 CR on my 2,2 Engine.

The thing is that itīs around what you pay for a set of JE forged pistons alone.
(And then you have machine work on your existing cyls. to make them OD)

This is the complete description of them:

"THIS IS A SET OF BRAND NEW 86MM HIGH COMPRESSION JE FORGED PISTONS, ALUMINUM BIRAL CYLINDERS, PISTON RINGS, TOOL STEEL WRIST PINS, & CLIPS. THESE ARE HIGH DOME, HIGH COMPRESSION PISTONS THAT ARE PERFECTLY BALANCED. THE CYLINDERS ARE PERFECTLY HONED AND FINISHED ON A SUNNEN CNC HONING MACHINE TO MAKE YOUR ENGINE A GREAT PERFORMANCE PIECE. BUILD YOUR ENGINE WITH HIGH QUALITY PARTS AND MAKE BIG HORSEPOWER!

PISTON: 86mm FORGED JE PISTON
COMPRESSION HEIGHT: 33.91mm (1.335")
PISTON TOP: 11.43mm (.450") HIGH COMPRESSION DOME TOP
ENGINE TYPE: PORSCHE 911
ENGINE SIZE: 2.2L AND 2.4L
CYLINDERS : ALUMINUM BIRAL
PISTON RING: HIGH PERFORMANCE RINGS: Top 1.5mm 2nd: 1.5mm Oil: 4mm
MANUFACTURER: AA PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS & JE PISTONS"

[chriss914]

Yeah, I found it pretty cheap too, but as always you got what you pay for...
Anyway it will result in giving $245 for six cylinders if we say $855 for the JE pistons. That assuming you can use the pistons in another application if the cylinders wont work good!
That EBS seems like a route to go, but i went in to their site and couldnīt find these smaller diameters. (maybe they got them though).

Anyway some days ago when I had read that some people used The "AA" I thought that I give it a try. But unfortunly i missed that it (at least some years ago) might be problem with having the bore at 86 m.m. When i get them I will compare the thickness with my worn Mahles and let my machine guy measure them about deck height and so on to see if they are usable. If they are, Its good. Iīve read that Birals quite easy go out of round so I suppose that whats most to be worried about. And then loose compression and HP or will the rings supposedly blast?

The source on Ebay had a lot of AAīs for vwīs also, so they seems to sell their products, and if You can trust Ebayīs feedback system it was good. So hopefully they at least are not parted out units.

Although I would like to hear if somebody have tried those or have some other experiences.

[EBS_Don]

Hi guys!

The AA products are generally built and machined very well. Just be careful and do not confuse AA parts with some of the QSC brand parts out there. QSC can be a good product but the consistency has been a serious problem. Anyway, please feel free to contact me with any questions you have! And, yes, we do have ANY of the AA brand parts available even of they are not on the site. BTW, the 86's have been fairly popular and make a great bolt on mod for 2.2/2.4 engines!

[chriss914]

Thanks Don!
That was a relief! The post I found by Henry assuming problem with "86" probably pointing at QSC 86 mm and not the AA 86 mm.

Thanks a lot!

[Henry Schmidt]

The AA cylinders are a nice product although we have found them to be a little low on the Rockwell scale IE: soft.
We are experimenting with both heat and Cryogenic treatments.
So far Cryo seems to be the ticket.

The 86mm QSC Nikasil cylinders were a great idea but they used the wrong design and the cylinders are prone to catastrophic failure. They may have redesigned them but when I discussed the design flaws they were less than receptive.

[chriss914]

Great!
Then we had that sorted out. It was the "QSC 86mm" that were prone to failure.
That was also my first thought when I read that post, but reading about (OEM birals 84 m.m.) go out of round when enlarged to much, I began to be worried it was the same case with "AA 86".

I doubt I can find someone doing cryo treatment in the neighborhood and Itīs a little torublesome to send them overseas to you . So what can I expect from them. Are they getting worn in a 1000 miles or is it some kind of situation like track days they donīt like?

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by chriss914

Great!
Then we had that sorted out. It was the "QSC 86mm" that were prone to failure.
That was also my first thought when I read that post, but reading about (OEM birals 84 m.m.) go out of round when enlarged to much, I began to be worried it was the same case with "AA 86".

I doubt I can find someone doing cryo treatment in the neighborhood and Itīs a little torublesome to send them overseas to you . So what can I expect from them. Are they getting worn in a 1000 miles or is it some kind of situation like track days they donīt like?

We haven't seen any excessive wear that can be attributed to cylinder design. We just feel that there is potential for wear based on pre-installation analysis. It is entirely possible that we are being too obsessive and that the Rockwell of the cylinders is not an issue.

[chriss914]

The guy that gonna do the machine work on my heads are well reputated for his skills and that he's "doing a good work", amongst people enjoying cars both for pleasure and for race. I have also found him like he don't like bad quality parts.

I will put these cans under his evil eye and watch his face!

Hopefully I can come back with a report on that later.

Thank's for sharing Your information!