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Spenny_b 01-19-2019 01:47 PM

Another theory that we discussed on the day, was whether we had an injector problem, and that one was either blocked or malfunctioning. I'd hope not, being Injector Dynamics ID1050X's, but everything needs to be checked.

Upon getting the car home and leaving everything for a week or two, I then removed the injectors and took them back up to Northampton for them to run on their ASNU injector diagnostic rig.

Just one of the many tests that were run....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PMFN58z_M2Q" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

'Scuse Steve's mathematics error, lol....but the results we got from the various tests:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...954176E65B.jpg

The results, I have to be honest, were underwhelming, with 5.7% variation across the set of six injectors. I'd be satisfied with that for randomly manufactured, off the shelf injectors, but for the level of care and attention that I know Inj Dynamics put into their manufacturing, I'd have expected a lot closer spread. Of course, I've liaised with their support team, who said that a) there must be blockage due to unsatisfactory filtration (again, a brand new FueLab 818xx series filter was installed), and b) were dismissive of the ASNU test rig that Northampton Motorsport were using.

I do now have the original check sheets for each injector, but not had time to read, understand and correlate them to what we saw with the tests. At the moment, the offer is there from I.D. for me to ship over the injectors for them to test (f.o.c) and clean if necessary....

In honestly, I don't think this is the root cause for any of the problems we saw on the dyno day, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Spenny_b 01-19-2019 02:04 PM

So....What's next?....
 
Well, in terms of fixing this harmonic issue, there are 3 options...the "Rolls Royce" solution, the "Ford Mondeo" solution and inbetween is the "BMW solution"....and this is something that I'm currently investigating...

My knee-jerk reaction would be to crate the whole car up into a shipping container, wave goodbye to it and send it over to Chris and Mike to sort out. The minute I start removing anything, I start removing potential evidence of what the problem is. the downside of this solution is the sheer cost of doing this. I'm waiting for final container costs to come in, but I know that Ro-Ro (roll-on, roll-off) shipping is about £1,500 each way, plus a tonne of port handling and onward shipping fees from port to Phoenix. Ro-Ro (ie., open deck) certainly isn't the method I'd choose to send my P&J, so the cost of a container is what I'm waiting for. I anticipate that it's going to be every inch £3k each way, plus significantly higher onward shipping and port handling fees....probably looking at £8k/$11k just to ship and return it. Chris and I have spoken about the strip/inspect/rebuild costs, so I can do the mental arithmetic on the "Rolls Royce" option.

The "Mondeo" option is for me to, yet again, do all the work myself. Pull the engine, strip, inspect and rebuild. However, this is the least likely of the options...

1) There are certain things happening outside of this project that mean my time will be extremely limited over the foreseeable future.

2) Frankly, I've run out of enthusiasm to do a 3rd (solo)rebuild. Sad but true.

3) I don't know what I'm looking for. If it was something obvious like a thrown rod sitting through the crankcase, then of course, easy to start going after it...but this is going to be something ever so subtle. Do I trust my measuring abilities? And even if I do, I certainly either don't have, or no longer have access to, the measuring tools to do the job properly (eg bore measuring equipment). Therefore, lots of sending parts out, driving around to deliver/collect, and finding trustworthy outfits to work with. Sometimes it's best to know your limits, especially when you no longer enjoy doing it as much.

The "BMW" option (or Mercedes, pick your poison) would be to find a UK based specialist who I trust, to undertake the work, perhaps with me assisting. The strip/inspect/rebuild costs are of course going to be the same, give or take, but it removes that huge $11k shipping overhead. That £8k/$11k would pay for a lot of parts, should they be needed.

Of course, with each of these options there's also the dyno costs to finish the job that Northampton Motorsport have done. I must add that the folks at Northampton Motorsport really are a good bunch. Amanda has been more than accommodating with me arranging and re-arranging (multiple times) my booking. Troy and his son were also very nice to work with that day, so I'd have no hesitation in returning there to finish the job.

When I know more, about not only the engine project but other "stuff" as well, I'll of course keep you all updated.

For now though, today I spent the day replacing the injectors and reworking the intake system (per previous post). The battery is charging at the moment, and I'll fire her up tomorrow and perhaps take it for a drive....fingers crossed the roads will again be dry and I can see what it feels like under W.O.T. ;)

jjeffries 01-19-2019 05:23 PM

Sir Spenny, I just caught up with your story. Less happy of a read than the "pale Brit hooks up with gorgeous California girl" chapter, I must say. All the awesomeness of Rennsport and then some.
Sorry that I cannot provide any brainwaves to fix the vibration (is the fan balanced, aligned?). Maybe ship it to Chris, then once it's fixed, fly over and do an epic roadtrip afterwards, across this vast country over hill (Rockies) and yonder dale (the Great Prairies) to here on the East Coast and ship the car back to Blighty via the Port of New York...cheaper than Los Angeles.

Either way, best wishes, keep you chin - and your end - up. Haha, one Brit to another. John/Connecticut.

Spenny_b 01-20-2019 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjeffries (Post 10323100)
Sir Spenny, I just caught up with your story. Less happy of a read than the "pale Brit hooks up with gorgeous California girl" chapter, I must say. All the awesomeness of Rennsport and then some.
Sorry that I cannot provide any brainwaves to fix the vibration (is the fan balanced, aligned?). Maybe ship it to Chris, then once it's fixed, fly over and do an epic roadtrip afterwards, across this vast country over hill (Rockies) and yonder dale (the Great Prairies) to here on the East Coast and ship the car back to Blighty via the Port of New York...cheaper than Los Angeles.

Either way, best wishes, keep you chin - and your end - up. Haha, one Brit to another. John/Connecticut.

Haha!! Hey John, that did make me chuckle, thanks for the spirited words of encouragement. Blimey, I didn't know you're a Brit! Actually, considering this is a real "sackcloth and ashes" situation (I think that may be a British-ism term) I'm not feeling as downbeat as you'd imagine, or should be.

Yup, I did remove the fan/alternator belt back in the summer and briefly fired up the engine - noise was still there. I did, however notice that it sounded a bit rumbly, so while the belt was off I removed the fan assy and stripped it. New regulator, brushes and bearing into the alternator, as well as a cleanup. As to whether it's in balance, I would presume so, but no it's not specifically an item I had balanced when the rods/pistons/flywheel/clutch/pulley was done.

I spent this morning washing the car and firing her up, get the fluids warm and then a 15mile trip up the road to get some fuel. I have to say, every time I wash it and stand back and look, I absolutely love it, in fact I still pinch myself after 8yrs of ownership. It's been a glorious winters day here today, barely a cloud, roads are bone dry...and she does go well. Feels coarse (we know that, eh?) but in terms of shove, yeah, very nice. Not otherworldly fast but certainly enough to squirt past cars on the dual carriageways.

Need a few things to happen this week (hopefully) to then get the next steps underway.

boosted79 01-20-2019 06:46 AM

Well that sucks for sure. If I was you I would be close to taking five gals. of "petrol" and a match to it..

boosted79 01-20-2019 07:11 AM

I guess I would start at the beginning again with a comp. and leakdown check.

Spenny_b 01-21-2019 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boosted79 (Post 10323490)
Well that sucks for sure. If I was you I would be close to taking five gals. of "petrol" and a match to it..

Haha...nah, it'll be fine in the end....admittedly, this project has fought me EVERY SINGLE INCH of the way, but the best things in life don't come easy. Once it's done, it'll be amazing. I have to say, my enthusiasm is high at the moment after driving it again yesterday on dry (daylight) roads, the road manners that Troy has dialled into the calibration are a world different from anything I've driven with this EFI'd engine. I always feared that I've gone and royally cocked-up a perfectly good (and now valuable) CIS car, and made something that was massively compromised in terms of its behaviour....but....this part is nailed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boosted79
I guess I would start at the beginning again with a comp. and leakdown check.

Yup, a compression test hasn't yet been done, but I did a leakdown test when I pulled the engine out, immediately before the dyno day. Numbers looked very good, 1-1.5% across all 6 pots.

Pat RUFBTR 01-21-2019 02:05 PM

Hi Spencer, I have another option for you, to invite Chris to your place! :)

Spenny_b 01-21-2019 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10325403)
Hi Spencer, I have another option for you, to invite Chris to your place! :)

We have discussed that option Pat, however...the time that Chris would be over here would of course be finite; there would be two options...

a) Either I need to have the engine stripped, inspected and ready to rebuild with every single part ready in my workshop. Anything that needs re-machining or any new parts needs to have been done in advance. This also means that by stripping the engine myself, I could well remove any evidence of what the problem is. It also means I need to be very selective about which specialists I use to do this machining work, as well as spending a lot of time driving around delivering and collecting parts (and without doubt, being frustrated by me not being their highest priority customer)

...or...

b) We strip the engine when Chris is over here, but then we're going to fail when we identify what the problem is. Any parts that need ordering are (at best) 2 days away plus half a day driving around collecting them once they're with my OPC. At worst, it could be parts that come from Germany and take 3-4 days to arrive. This also means that I need to have all the measuring equipment needed to inspect the components. I have a lot of it, but for example bore measuring tools that are deep enough to measure the line bore of the crankcase, are big money. Any corrective work is weeks to get done, meaning Chris would be back in the US before I'm ready to re-assemble.

So, as much as it would be absolutely great to fly Chris over here, the practicality of it means that getting an engine rebuilt is extremely unlikely to be completed. A typical strip/inspect/rebuild is reckoned to be between 60-70 hours; that in itself is 5 x 12hr days to work, assuming everything is here in front of you ready to build with.

Mixed76 01-21-2019 05:27 PM

If it were me I would sort the control issues before taking on any kind of disassembly- surely the mechanical issue is separate?

Seems you could test that vapor return theory, leave it disconnected for a while and see if the control stabilizes. On the other hand, if your leakdown is 1-2% and you have good droplet filtration, there shouldn't be much flow, and hence no issue. If the problem resolves well of course you know what to work on.

Air flow to the intercooler looks pretty weak- I would want to have a standalone blower *on* the whole intercooler, not that little hose. Maybe spray a little water on there too. IC temp will definitely affect advance and high rpm power.

Dan

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk

Spenny_b 01-22-2019 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mixed76 (Post 10325763)
If it were me I would sort the control issues before taking on any kind of disassembly- surely the mechanical issue is separate?

Seems you could test that vapor return theory, leave it disconnected for a while and see if the control stabilizes. On the other hand, if your leakdown is 1-2% and you have good droplet filtration, there shouldn't be much flow, and hence no issue. If the problem resolves well of course you know what to work on.

Air flow to the intercooler looks pretty weak- I would want to have a standalone blower *on* the whole intercooler, not that little hose. Maybe spray a little water on there too. IC temp will definitely affect advance and high rpm power.

Dan

Hi Dan, thanks for the thoughts.

As you say, the breather return is an easy one to check; I have now removed the breather outlet/intake inlet from the system. The intake "snorkel" now only has the air filter on the end of it. I'll play around with the Syvecs SW and see if I can get the same dashboard metrics displayed, and see if there's a reduction in fuel trim.

Believe me, that IC cooling hose almost knocked me off my feet, it was tremendously powerful! By preference, I'd rather have had a fixed manifold on top of the IC, but these guys aren't doing Porsche every day, so it'd have to be something I fabricated and transported up there. (The previous engine dyno cell facility that I used did have one, designed and made for a previous client...and annoyingly it put the tiniest of witness marks into an otherwise prestine black anodized finish on the IC)

Of course, while holding it for each run, I was moving it constantly to cool the various parts of the IC. Fear not....the AIT's were stonkingly good, just as they were 2-3yrs ago on the engine dyno....and again, the guys at the Dyno raised eyebrows as to how stable (and low) they were. Testament to Chris/TK's intercooler (as if anyone doubted it...)

Pat RUFBTR 01-22-2019 02:47 AM

Hi Spencer, I really doubt you made a mistake in making your engine, given all the care you’ve given it, if you made a mistake then I can freak out a lot for mine!

Mixed76 01-22-2019 07:51 AM

Another thought-

I have had cars with vibration that turned out to be bad injector connector, bad temp sensor, failing coil-on-plug. One way to confirm mechanical vs other source is to coast down from speed, in gear (engine braking). That minimizes any contribution from fuel or spark- if you don't feel vibration then, it's likely not caused by the major rotating bits.

Whoever said it should be smooth is right, my old 3.0 feels like a turbine when revving, accelerating, or engine braking. Lumpy at idle of course. :)

Dan

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk

mdj930 01-22-2019 09:03 AM

I had a bad injector connection and just unplugged one injector at a time when idling the one that didn't make a change was the bad one.
Mike

Spenny_b 01-23-2019 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10325960)
Hi Spencer, I really doubt you made a mistake in making your engine, given all the care you’ve given it, if you made a mistake then I can freak out a lot for mine!

Haha, thank you for the vote of confidence my friend! I'm certainly not above making mistakes, or even at best, I could have installed a new, but sub-standard part...I'm thinking timing chains, or bearings, or...

However, I'm less confident of other elements of the system that I've not built myself. :rolleyes:

Spenny_b 01-23-2019 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mixed76 (Post 10326293)
Another thought-

I have had cars with vibration that turned out to be bad injector connector, bad temp sensor, failing coil-on-plug. One way to confirm mechanical vs other source is to coast down from speed, in gear (engine braking). That minimizes any contribution from fuel or spark- if you don't feel vibration then, it's likely not caused by the major rotating bits.

Whoever said it should be smooth is right, my old 3.0 feels like a turbine when revving, accelerating, or engine braking. Lumpy at idle of course. :)

Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdj930
I had a bad injector connection and just unplugged one injector at a time when idling the one that didn't make a change was the bad one.
Mike

All very good points, thanks chaps. I'm not saying it isn't a fuel injector or CoP (because I've not tested them individually, yet)...however, when I've removed them, all 12 spark plugs look identical to each other. No evidence that one isn't firing, or that a cylinder is devoid of fuel.....but pulling plugs and swapping CoP "heads" (I have a spare unit) is certainly something worth trying.

Merlinmadness 01-25-2019 02:04 PM

Thanks for the update. Improving these old cars is sometimes incredibly frustrating!

I'm sure you'll get there and it'll all be worth it.

Spenny_b 01-25-2019 02:36 PM

Thanks Merlin. Yup, we'll get there...Dunkirk Spirit etc etc....

Spenny_b 02-06-2019 12:53 PM

Evening folks,

Ok, just a short update. In post #1122, I mentioned "other stuff" outside of this car project which was currently in play. Well, as of Monday evening, I resigned from my current job so that I could accept a really fantastic opportunity with a competitive company. As such, I'm now on "Gardening Leave" for a month.

The list of jobs to do in this spare month is long (and getting longer!), and I've now come to a decision on the next steps for this project.

I'm not going to be undertaking the rebuild myself, for all the reasons I explained previously. My new job will be extremely challenging, it's with a S/W start-up (although a relatively mature start-up, they're in Series E funding), and so it's all about getting out there and making a splash. All achievable, but it's going to need a lot of dedication. Added to which, I've been delaying a house project for almost 5 years now. My enthusiasm really isn't with the prospect of tearing down the engine again, but is with finally trying to get the house project underway, working with my Dad to do so.

Chris and I have spoken a few times the last couple of weeks about the "Rolls Royce" option, and much as I would love to send the car over to AZ, frankly, the money just isn't there to cater for that magnitude of spend. This project should have been done by now, no more spending, but after I received the costs from the shipping company, my estimated additional spend for this option would be approaching £20k/$26k by the time you take into account any parts needed (could be major), machining work and then the dyno time to presumably start again and complete a full calibration. I then need to fly over and test drive, make sure I'm happy, then wait another 50 days or so to receive it in England...Also, this is assuming the £/$ exchange rate doesn't tank due to Brexit. That's a significant risk with the level of uncertainty in the UK at the moment. Available funds also need to be spent on the house project...

So, the way forward for me has been for me to re-aquaint myself with the guys at Fearnsport, based up at Silverstone in the UK "Midlands". I've known Matt for over a decade; they PPI'd a couple of GT3's including the one I then purchased. They then looked after servicing it whilst in my ownership, and have since gone over the 964 Turbo very thoroughly for the insurance assessment a few years ago. They're a good bunch, and certainly look after some lovely projects; for those who use Instagram, you may follow "Andy74b"...owner of some fantastic toys, and currently having a Singer built for him. In addition Fearnsport are building Andy a rather trick 993, and I *think* may have worked on his F40. Other stuff that I've seen up there belonging to some of the well known PistonHeads guys include 993 GT's, C-GT's, the 'Ring record holder (in the day) 993 "Black Snake", some Ruf's, and funnily enough another F40 belonging to a guy I know of, which has just left the workshops (freeing up a space on the lift for my car). Oh, and a 997.2 GT3 Cup engine swap into a 996 GT3 Mk1, which looks fantastic, just like a factory install (and wasn't as simple as you may think!). I was up there once when Matt was midway through rebuilding a 959 engine, for a car with an anonymous owner that sits in storage. Think it's safe to say that he knows his stuff.

So, I think (hope) I'm in safe hands. I know Matt is a perfectionist, and someone I've always got on very well with over the years. The added bonus is that they're only a stones throw (15miles) from Northampton Motorsport, so when rebuilt, it's going to be very easy to get it across to Troy for dyno completion.

Tonights job is to tidy some stuff up, mount the ECU under the passenger seat and get it presentable (vacuum the carpets...) ready for a drive up there tomorrow. Weather forecast looks unbelievably crap, but hey-ho, a light right foot and plenty of time to get there. I have to say, it's almost a massive weight off my shoulders. I know I won't have the satisfaction of doing it end-to-end, but in fairness I have done most of it - all the fabrication and "ideas" on how to do things, I've got my hands well-and-truly dirty over 7yrs, become intimately familiar with the architecture of the engine, but to now know that it's someone elses (a Pro's) responsibility to get it finished is actually a huge relief. "I've served my time"!! And there's still the other chassis stuff to do at a later date...suspension refresh, etc etc.

Not such a short update after all....

911 tweaks 02-06-2019 01:16 PM

Well thought out spenny...
I totally understand the what if brexit thing tanks the British pound and you are in the USA completing the project = read that could 2x+ make the cost...
Plus the car can be checked on after a half hour drive to give you a break from the mega job you are about to jump into...
Go get em... carry on... best of luck with all of this...
Keep the clear thinking on ALL fronts...))

911 tweaks 02-06-2019 01:18 PM

Oh, I forgot, you should write a book on this adventure and a how to build a set up you have created with parts listing, mods needed, ect...
I would buy one...!!

Spenny_b 02-06-2019 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks (Post 10345685)
Well thought out spenny...
I totally understand the what if brexit thing tanks the British pound and you are in the USA completing the project = read that could 2x+ make the cost...
Plus the car can be checked on after a half hour drive to give you a break from the mega job you are about to jump into...
Go get em... carry on... best of luck with all of this...
Keep the clear thinking on ALL fronts...))

Thanks mate, yep, I've certainly spared the situation no end of thought (read: "agonising", as I tend to be fond of doing!)

Of course, once Matt starts diagnosing the noise (he'll feel/hear it for himself when he drives me across to the train station for my return trip home)...I may get unbelievably lucky and find it's not anything that requires a teardown....maybe it's the flywheel or clutch assy - it was all balanced together, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Maybe a dodgy spigot bearing in the end of the crank? Possibly the input shaft to the transmission? It'd be a travesty to spend a fortune, and commit 90-100 days of transit time with getting it to Chris, only to find it's something ridiculously simple!!

jjeffries 02-07-2019 04:29 PM

That last sentence is very sensible. Best of luck, John

Spenny_b 02-08-2019 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjeffries (Post 10347165)
That last sentence is very sensible. Best of luck, John

Thanks John!

Spenny_b 02-08-2019 03:00 AM

Ok, time for another update....

Contrary to earlier weather reports, yesterday turned out to be a stunning day (mostly), clear blue winter skies. The perfect day to take a 3.5hr roadtrip up to Silverstone and drop off the car with Fearnsport. I even cracked open the sunroof for a while!

Before getting going, my sense of pride wouldn't allow me to drop the car with them, with the ECU and associated wiring not mounted securely under the passenger seat (I started it the previous evening, then a family situation curtailed play). So, I spent yesterday morning getting it looking a lot more presentable.....not perfect, certainly a little more tidying and mounting of the connectors (chassis) required, but not bad for 2-3 hours....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/IMG_5879.jpg

A little bit of a strange day, insomuch that it was a decent schlep up there, more or less traffic free. No breaks, arrived mid pm, quick cuppa and a natter, then time for Matt and I to go on a drive (him driving), to understand and feel the vibration, then turn straight around and head back south again, sprint across town, get into the Lotus and drive across to my girlfriends house...and due to her cooking a lovely dinner and wanting to be on time, it turned into a very "spirited" drive, he-heh!

Anyway, it was a 15mile journey across to Milton Keynes train station where I then started my return journey home. A mixture of country and dual carriageway roads, so he was able to very clearly feel and hear what I've struggled to describe. Hallelujah! His feedback was that in addition to sounding "coarse" (his words, not mine, although we've used exactly the same term) the engine note itself sounded very flat as the revs climb.

[sidenote] Watching somebody else drive my P&J away after being dropped off, was a strange experience; nobody else has ever driven her, but I have to say, it looked a $million amongst all the other humdrum vehicles. Definitely a keeper! [/sidenote]....I texted Matt later in the evening, and he'd had a good run back, the longer way around it seems, and has now got to "know" the car a lot better; able to reproduce the noise at will. He also commented that there's a lot more refinement to be done on the drivability. Now, compared to the break-in map I had been running, I thought it wasn't too bad at all, but it's encouraging to know that it should be even better after the next dyno session. And to be clear, Northampton Motorsport never did declare their work complete, by any stretch...the calibration I've been running with was merely to make it more drivable to get it home after the very long and frustrating day we had in November.

Of course, his approach is to rule out the simpler stuff first, and that work starts this morning; ignition function and timing, remove transmission, then if needed remove the clutch, then the flywheel and narrow it down. Encouragingly he was very clear on his wish to not unnecessarily strip the engine....it doesn't mean he won't need to do it, but unlike some less reputable outfits, it's not his first step in fixing it, in order to start generating a big bill. Like any of the great engine pro's, if a teardown is needed, he basically does a reverse-build...for instance, measuring the cam timing before undoing anything, studiously recording everything and then carefully disassembling it. All good stuff to hear.

I have to confess, it feels like a MASSIVE weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Yes, every penny now spent is (way) over budget, but I think it'll be worth it for the peace of mind.

More info as-and-when it comes through.

Pat RUFBTR 02-08-2019 08:16 AM

Hi Spencer, I wish you the best of luck in your car, I can’t wait for everything to end so well for you, courage!

Pat

MikeD930 02-09-2019 08:11 AM

Spenny...since this thread is 58 pages I'm not sure if you already had the engine oil analyzed to see if there's any signs of engine problem causing noise/vibration. You have been through a lot and hopefully it's a minor problem.

Spenny_b 02-10-2019 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10347743)
Hi Spencer, I wish you the best of luck in your car, I can’t wait for everything to end so well for you, courage!

Pat

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD930
Spenny...since this thread is 58 pages I'm not sure if you already had the engine oil analyzed to see if there's any signs of engine problem causing noise/vibration. You have been through a lot and hopefully it's a minor problem.

Thanks guys as always for the support, appreciated.

@Mike - I didn't send the oil out for analysis, but I did open the oil filter each time after an oil change, to see what was in there. First one after breaking in had a few bits of gunky stuff (Curil-T) in there but no metal. The second was absolutely clean, no nothing.

Spenny_b 02-10-2019 08:39 AM

Update time....

Now....dare I whisper it....we think we've identified a "smoking gun" already.

I received a phonecall from a pretty excited Matt @ Fearnsport at the close of business on Friday. He and his colleague (another Matt) had spent the day trying to rule out the simple(r) potential problems. Like me, Matt was able to recreate the vibration "at will" while the car is stationary, so this naturally rules out the possibility of it being driveshaft and CV joint related.

Step 1) Split my transmission from the engine and install a "spare" single mass flywheel and clutch assembly. Re-mate my transmission and test. This made no difference, the vibration was exactly the same.

Step 2) Split the transmission again, and fit a "spare" 964 RS 'box. I have to confess, I can't remember whether this was with the donor clutch and flywheel still fitted, or whether my original SMFW and clutch assy was re-installed. I understand that the RS tranny is a shorter unit than the G50/52 unit used on the 3.3 Turbo, so for this test the nose of the transmission was not bolted up to the chassis. Instead a transmission jack/stand was supporting it, and of course it was bolted to the engine at the other end.

When Matt fired the engine up, he said he was in a state of disbelief, "like somebody had swapped the engine itself", apparently it felt and sounded COMPLETELY different; very smooth, not so much as a vibration of the transmission on the stand.

So amazed by this, Matt has asked me to travel up there first thing tomorrow morning to see it for myself. So I am!

Trying not to get my hopes up that this is the one-and-only issue, I'll know more this time tomorrow.

Of course, while Matt has the car I'm going to ask him to "mark my homework" on the engine; another leakdown test, check the ignition timing, that we have all 12 sparks, that all the plumbing and breather lines are good, and so on. I'll also ask him to get the injectors ultrasonically cleaned for good measure, and do as much as we can to ensure a successful day on the dyno second time around.

With regards to a potential transmission rebuild, of course it's prudent to renew the synchros and baulk rings, plus any other sundry items like selector forks if necessary. Coincidentally, I had commented to Matt about the transmission sounding really quite agricultural in normal driving. With very little point of reference, I don't know if this is business-as-usual or if this was another indication that the 'box wasn't happy.

It does beg the question of "what's happened to the gearbox, then?" I've done nothing other than clean the case and drain/refill with new transmission fluid. Perhaps this issue was there from Day 1 of me buying the car, and masked by the dual mass flywheel? I only drove it for a handful of months before tearing it apart, and certainly a lot less than 1,000 miles. In manoeuvring the transmission around the garage, it's always beein installed and removed on the ground, nice and square to the engine. I've only lifted it by the nose mount and the bellhousing, so until we strip it and understand what's wrong, that'll remain a mystery.

Back soon with more news....

Pat RUFBTR 02-10-2019 09:03 AM

Hi Spencer, I’m glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news! :)

Spenny_b 02-10-2019 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10349925)
Hi Spencer, I’m glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news! :)

Hey Pat!

Hmm, the transmission was filled with a blended recipe of fluids, given to me from a very reputable source - off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly what the mix was, but speaking with Matt, he's pretty confident that the problem with the 'box extends beyond whatever oil was used. I guess the exception to that theory may be if a bearing has failed, but again, this wasn't a completely inappropriate oil (like engine oil!) that was used, it was a blend of regular recommended grade oil, but mixed with an anti-shock oil (I think, again, I need to read back through my notes and remind myself).

I'm going to take my overalls up there tomorrow, and see if I can persuade Matt to start stripping the transmission while I'm there!!

The next question is, "do I upgrade my LSD while we're stripping the unit?" Obvious candidates are Wavetrac or Guard, or maybe just a rebuild of the stock unit. I suppose it depends on the condition of the LSD as it currently stands, and whether the economics stack up.

I once had an Auto Torque Biasing diff in a previous RWD car (made by Quaife, as it happens). It was a long time ago, but if memory serves, it felt quite snappy when traction did let go. Not sure whether an ATB or a true LSD upgrade would be the best route for a pure road hotrod. As said before, this car will not be going on track, so something hyper aggressive for smooth track surfaces is not going to be the right choice for Britains bumpy, oddly cambered public highway, not to mention I need something that if I get caught out in adverse weather (it's happened before...) it becomes an oversteering liability.

Having read a number of threads like this one it looks like ATB's have a significantly shorter expected life than a good LSD; granted this statement by Paul Geary (ex Guard) and Matt Monson (Guard, present day) was in reference to track use, but even so, with hopefully the torque numbers we'll be pushing through it, I don't want to be pulling the unit out for rebuilds that often!

safe 02-10-2019 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10349925)
Hi Spencer, I’m glad the problem is finally targeted, maybe you put an unadapted oil in the gearbox, you need a specific oil for the gearboxes with the built-in autoblocker. I look forward to the rest of the news! :)

Whats an autoblocker?

Pat RUFBTR 02-10-2019 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by safe (Post 10350140)
Whats an autoblocker?

It is a system that is almost systematically integrated into our Porsche gearboxes, it serves for example to have more motor power when one of the motor wheels skate, the one that does not skate takes all the motor, I hope my rather simplistic explanation will satisfy you! :)

Pat RUFBTR 02-10-2019 01:23 PM

Spencer, Chris some time ago had already advised Wavetrac, for my part on my 930 I have a G50/00 6v I still have in it the original autoblocker at 40%. :)

safe 02-10-2019 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat RUFBTR (Post 10350157)
It is a system that is almost systematically integrated into our Porsche gearboxes, it serves for example to have more motor power when one of the motor wheels skate, the one that does not skate takes all the motor, I hope my rather simplistic explanation will satisfy you! :)

Ah, LSD.

I got a Guard torsen (Helical gear type) in my G50, not sure I like it. I think a clutch style would be better, but it depends on the intended purpose of the car.
I use standard Castrol syntrax 75w140, recommended by my builder, it has additives for LSD. You don't need to over complicate oil for a G50...

Spenny_b 02-11-2019 08:09 AM

Monday update....

An early start to drive the 150 miles up to Silverstone got underway at 5.20; I think my neighbours must hate me now, first of all scraping off the ice then firing the car up. About as subtle as a brick through a window.

Usual Monday morning traffic snarls approaching and circumnavigating London, but got up there just after 9.00 and got straight into the discussion with Matt and Matt. Jumping into the car to feel the difference was indeed a revelation; I was trying not to get my hopes up too much so I may have come across as slightly underwhelmed, but it certainly is a vast improvement. Any vibration that I was telling myself I was feeling was either:

a) normal
b) due to the donor RS transmission having a solid mount
c) running a single mass flywheel and
d) the fact that the RS 'box was only bolted up to the chassis using 2 of the 6 bolts on the nose crossmember bracket. (I was mistaken the other day, the transmission was always bolted up, not on a transmission jack). It's about 40-50mm shorter, but 1x bolt on each side of that crossbrace do line up with the chassis holes.
e) some refinement on the mapping. It was a little "fluffy", and that's fine, it is unfinished work.

The Plan - pt 1
So, this afternoon, Matt is going to deliver the transmission to the outfit they use for such things, across the way on the Silverstone circuit estate. Initial teardown by them, then a joint inspection and diagnosis.

We'll inspect the LSD (of course) and see where to go from there. Depending on what needs replacing will determine budget to spend on an LSD/ATB.

The Plan - pt 2
I've asked the guys to perform a healthcheck on the engine; throw the book at it and make sure everything's a-ok. To do this they're going to remove it from the chassis, do a leakdown test as well as removing the water cooling system. I'm not happy with it; I think there's insufficient coolant capacity, consequently it boils off and somehow disappears, emptying the header tank after any decent length run. You can hear it "kettling/syphoning" on engine shutdown. To get to the rear-most -8 water fitting on the CHRA needs either the turbo off or the engine out. It's a shame, as a LOT of effort (and money) went into that project. I'm going to keep all the parts and maybe revisit, fitting a lot larger radiator into the recess where a Carrera 4 front diff unit would normally mount, but that's a project for another day. Finally, the bloody exhaust is blowing again, on the 4-5-6 bank. Again, a job that's a lot easier with the engine removed (although not vital to do so, of course)

The Plan - pt 3
There are a few corrective and fiddly jobs to do. Firstly, Matt identified a fuel weep from the return line into the tank, in the front fuel pump recess. Of course very dangerous, so needs immediate attention; whether that length of hose that interfaces the -6 line to the push-on fitting of the tank isn't fuel rated, I don't know (it should be, of course, I fitted it thinking it was).

The front 044 pump sounds like it's on it's last legs (it was new, fitted at the same time as the engine bay 044 pump), so we'll swap that out.

Next up, the rigid clutch slave cylinder line that runs from the drivers side of the tunnel then across to the passenger (LH) side, right by the transmission mount. I replaced this line, old one was knackered looking. But already its starting to look not-great with the 3-4 removals we've done. It snags on the selector shaft. So, Matt's making up and swapping that out for a flexi line.

The dented inner faces of the driveshafts are getting sorted, some new grease retention shields are apparently very cheap. Packing the CV with fresh grease as well, after inspecting the joints themselves.

The Injector Dynamics injectors are going to go to Northampton Motorsport for ultrasonic cleaning. ID haven't been particularly helpful in their diagnosis of the flow difference across the 6 units, instantly blaming both the ASNU test rig and then contamination from my fuel system. No need to send them over there, would lose weeks and have to tolerate aggro with customs to ensure VAT/Import duties don't have to be paid each way. Did it a few years ago with Molles (TurboKraft) help for the cylinder re-machining - it's a ballache.

The Northampton Motorsports dyno has now been tentatively booked for the 25th Feb (full day) with the option of a further half day on Friday 1st March should it be needed.

So...very decent amount of progress, fingers crossed the wind is behind us and we can get it all back together for the 25th!

Pat RUFBTR 02-11-2019 01:47 PM

Very satisfied for you Spencer! ;)

jjeffries 02-12-2019 08:59 AM

Wow, cue the theme from "633 Squadron" or "Where Eagles Dare". Forgive my non-sequitor, but this feels like inspirational news, so I'm thinking of some stirring film music...we had the cheap K-Tel album of WW2 movie themes back in Brissle, circa 1971. Although the mission in all these films was to "get Gerry", your car is a prime example of the Nazi Hot Rod, so maybe I should be imaging Ride of the Valkyries? Bottom line: das ist etwas gutte scheisse. Viel gluck. John

preston_brown 02-12-2019 12:15 PM

Noisy 044 fuel pumps frequently speak to some obstruction on the intake side... debris? Worth checking before tossing it.

Spenny_b 02-12-2019 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by preston_brown (Post 10352907)
Noisy 044 fuel pumps frequently speak to some obstruction on the intake side... debris? Worth checking before tossing it.

Thanks Preston, I’ll certainly get Matt the check it first, cheers for the hint.


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