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Kartoffelkopf
 
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964 3.3 Turbo EFI Conversion using Syvecs (Life Racing) Engine Management

Evening folks, apologies in advance for a mammoth opening post! I'm anticipating this to be the opening gambit of a thread which I'll update (a-la "Odyssey") as I progress over the next 3mths, 6mths, year, whatever....

So, I'm sure that doing an EFI conversion is something I want to progress on my '92 3.3 964 Turbo, and I've been steadily researching, digging deep into the Pelican forums (fora?) to educate myself...or try

As part of the preparation, I rolling-roaded the car a few weeks back to "baseline" the engine. Despite it feeling far quicker than the numbers suggest (to me at least), it's pushing more-or-less stock numbers at 320.1fwhp with stock boost. Car has approx 84k miles and was running on regular UK Shell V-Max Super Unleaded (99 RON)

I've only had the car since March, and after doing some general maintenance and corrective work, the only engine mod I know about is the Haywood & Scott exhaust system (that retains a cat, although don't know the cell count). This probably offsets any wear and tear, and adds a little bit for good measure. The air injection assy was also removed by me a few months ago (the air pipes and injectors were rotted).

So, the approximate plan is:

- To convert to EFI; Although I like the concept of retaining CIS for it's "charm" and originality, I like efficiency, technology, and above all, accuracy. I also want to build a flexible platform for future tuning as/when funds permit....this is very much my keeper project car to amuse me over the next xx years. As much fun will (hopefully) be derived from the hands-on fettling as the driving itself.

- Drop the engine and run a leakdown and compression test. The engine looks healthy according to the numbers on the RR, but just to make sure.

- If it's OK, then remove the CIS components and replace with the kit I need for EFI.

- I may well look to replace the stock K27. This is not a track car in any way, so I'm not after mega boost at lofty revs, I'd far rather have a usable quick spooling engine that will demolish Britains finest tarmac without having to redline all the time. I'm also thinking single turbo to keep it relatively simple, although should it be a given that twin scroll is the way we roll these days?...with suitable mods to the turbo mating flange, of course.

- The engine management I'm planning on using is MBE - not sure how well known it is in the US, but pretty popular over here in the UK. A very good mate of mine is an extremely bright chap, superb at mapping and has been tuning and refining my Westfield track car since 1994 (which has used various generations of MBE systems over the years). Steve is a distributor for MBE SBD Motorsport but also works hand-in-hand with them to develop and test the code. He does also know MoTeC, and his thoughts are that the latest generation of MBE is very much on a par, but significantly cheaper....and I'll get a good price on it!

If all the tests go well, I'll probably leave a top-end or full rebuild for another time.

If all doesn't go so well with leakdowns, then I'll need to decide how far I go with a rebuild. If I'm in that situation, I'll probably be aiming for *about* 400-450rwhp, so will then look at cams and head porting. Depending on P&C condition, may well look to replace with a capacity increase set....and maybe shuffle-pinning...and boat tailing...and twin plugging...and head studs/conrod bolts...and....(see where this is going?!)

Crucially, in the spirit of being a fun and educational thing to do, I'm going to be doing the spanner work myself, and so I'm not looking to be experimental or bleeding-edge....well-proven build recipes for this venture into Turbo tuning are more than enough for me at the moment!!

Waynes book is, of course, a constant point of reference at the moment....very interesting it is too.

After reading many threads that involve Chris and the chaps @ TurboKraft's expertise, I like the idea of working with Chris. Toms thread is a true inspiration, and it seems that his vetting of partners has saved a lot of legwork/guesswork! But, the practicalities of me being in the UK and TurboKraft in AZ, mean that getting my car to him is a non-starter! So, looking for the parts I would need, TurboKraft looks like a great one-stop-shop, with invaluable input on here, and he seems like a very open kinda guy with his sanity checking and advice. I like that. I'm not out to bleed anyones brains then bugger off elsewhere, but this is my first aircooled project so may need a little hand-holding (in fact, it was because of Steve's enthusiasm back in 1994 that I went to SBD Motorsport for my Westfield engine build, and we became very close mates, racing together, etc, etc...very similar to how Tom met TurboKraft by the sounds of it)

So, I guess that brings me onto the assumptions and questions...sorry, a lot of these may be a little noddy, I'm still becoming familiar with this stuff, lol:

1) With my car being a 964, am I right in thinking that if I want to retain the OE intake manifold, this would work better than for the guys doing 930 conversions, which have less than optimal manifolds? In other words, perhaps not such a compelling need to upgrade to the Carrera intake manifold?

1a) If so, then I could swap out the stock CIS injector blocks for those that Chris sells?
1b) ....or would I still be best to go for Carrera intake manifold plus Chris's adapters to mate 42mm > 32mm? This would then mean that any future porting work to the heads could be catered for by swapping out the adapter blocks for larger items, but means a more complicated initial install...and costlier...
1c) I'm undecided on injectors...I run Peco injectors on my Westfield, they seem to be the favoured injector for my MBE-whiz mate (IIRC they have great flow characteristics for low duty cycle, easy to drive by the ECU) - at that point I may need to make custom injector rails rather than use the TurboKraft ones in the Injector Block kit?
1d) What sort of cc flow rate would I need, assuming a stock build?

2) Do I need a cylinder head temp sensor on the 964? Or is there one there already?

3) Crank position sensor...again, on the 964 is this something that's already present?

4) Knock sensors? One of my books references a knock sensor bracket but then says "Not Turbo", so I guess that's for the Carreras...can this simply be retro-fitted onto an M30 lump?

5) Assumption - I'm not going to be twin plugging - leave that for a future project - so TurboKrafts single coil/amplifier mounts look like a neat solution.

6) I'm pretty sure that budget will dictate me retaining the stock 964 intercooler for the time being. Is this ok, or a really ill-advised idea?

7) Is it worth retaining the OE wastegate? I've stripped this down before and it looks fine, but as good practice, I'm more than happy to buy a known spring (I have an old receipt on file for a 1bar unit, but it's clearly only boosting to ca.0.7bar) and new diaphragm....or shall I invest in a more modern unit? Pretty sure I'm right in saying the MBE ECU will handle boost control, so I guess I'll need a solenoid for it to control - any stand-out recommendations?

In order to get started building a map, we would need a base ignition timing spec - I found the thread on here that discusses that, so hopefully I can tick that box.

Now, the good stuff....what can I remove from the engine when moving away from CIS?

- Fuel distributor head
- WUR
- Vacuum limiter valve?
- Oxygen sensor control unit?
- Acceleration enrichment control unit?
- Auxiliary air regulator?
...what else?

Thanks guys, really looking forward to getting stuck in once all the homework and pricing has been done

Cheers
Spencer.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 01-30-2012 at 01:37 AM..
Old 08-25-2011, 12:42 PM
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Spencer,
That's a really straight-forward conversion.
TurboKraft can ship you any/all of the conversion hardware.
Also, we just worked with another gentleman in England on converting his C2T to EFI (using locally sourced Motec) and with stock head ports and upgraded 964 cams he's making respectable power on the engine dyno running premium pump fuel:
0.7= 370hp
1.0= 450hp
1.2bar= 500hp (499.7hp)
I'll post more details on the conversion later, cover your specific questions -- but have got to do an (overdue) update on Schnele's job first.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:09 PM
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Kartoffelkopf
 
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Hi Chris, just the man I was hoping would stick a quick post up there

Yup, it does seem, in my own little mind, a straightforward conversion I want to make; even if I need to do some rebuild work, my confidence is growing with each page I read, lol!

I may well go the cam route as well - not quite the same level of work needed as stripping it down for a rebuild - I'll add another column in the Excel spreadsheet. I presume they were FW horsepower readings from your UK guy?

Look forward to hearing more, cheers Chris

S
Old 08-26-2011, 12:33 AM
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Spenny,
You are on the right track. So many folks just dive in, you have this well-thought out and with help from the folks at TurboKraft, you will end up with a fantastic build.

I would like to ask if you would be interested in selling off some of the CIS bits if you no longer need them. I already have the Euro injectors (and someone will pay a pretty penny for yours) but I am looking for the fuel lines (I think they flow more) and the Euro fuel head. Someone else who is having WUR problems will certainly be looking for that item, but mine works fine.

As far as advice I would offer this: Keep the original wastegate, they are bullet-proof, different springs are available. You could get an aftermarket Tial, but why. The stock 964 turbo intercooler is very effective, no reason to change that. There is no cylinder head temp sensor but the timing on our cars does consider the engine temp and the air intake temp. There is no knock sensor, with the lower base compression and the high octane you are using, you probably don't need it. Our flat-top pistons really don't benefit much from twin-plugging, plus it is a hassle with our cars, so much other stuff competing for room under the bonnet. I like the flat intake manifold for our boosted cars, the injector blocks that Chris sells are a work of art, I would invest in those.

Good Luck Sir,
Mark
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Old 08-26-2011, 03:55 PM
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I converted to EFI and used the stock 930 manifold. The conversion works fantastically well. No regrets. Perhaps I passed on some power gains by not going with a Carrera manifold, but to be honest, I had a simple bolt on upgrade with no hassles and that is what I wanted. Runs like a watch now. I do need to dyno it to get a baseline.

Good luck with your conversion!
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1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
stock 3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, B&B intercooler, Tial wastegate, Electromotive tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter
Old 08-26-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Spenny,
You are on the right track. So many folks just dive in, you have this well-thought out and with help from the folks at TurboKraft, you will end up with a fantastic build.

I would like to ask if you would be interested in selling off some of the CIS bits if you no longer need them. I already have the Euro injectors (and someone will pay a pretty penny for yours) but I am looking for the fuel lines (I think they flow more) and the Euro fuel head. Someone else who is having WUR problems will certainly be looking for that item, but mine works fine.

As far as advice I would offer this: Keep the original wastegate, they are bullet-proof, different springs are available. You could get an aftermarket Tial, but why. The stock 964 turbo intercooler is very effective, no reason to change that. There is no cylinder head temp sensor but the timing on our cars does consider the engine temp and the air intake temp. There is no knock sensor, with the lower base compression and the high octane you are using, you probably don't need it. Our flat-top pistons really don't benefit much from twin-plugging, plus it is a hassle with our cars, so much other stuff competing for room under the bonnet. I like the flat intake manifold for our boosted cars, the injector blocks that Chris sells are a work of art, I would invest in those.

Good Luck Sir,
Mark
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the post - very interesting. Agree, with my limited experience, the stock waste gate does look to be very solid and certainly would like to keep it if it makes sense; I guess I was wondering whether the stock unit had a ceiling w.r.t. the amount of discharge it can flow? But for my more-or-less stock engine running EFI, I appreciate this isn't really worthy of consideration.

Upon closer examination and conversion of the dyne tables, my engine looks to be peaking at 11.96psi/0.82bar, so would the recommendation be to simply to keep the spring I already have, then use a controller to fine tune?....This spring is of unknown origin installed by one of the previous owners, so would you guys replace with a known factory spec 0.7bar spring for additional safety margin?

Handy to know it's probably not worth the complication of adding knock and cylinder head temp sensors, although the MBE management unit will have plenty of inputs that could accept a feed, but I'm all for working to the "K.I.S.S." principle!

In terms of selling the CIS stuff, I'd probably consider it, and if you're interested, then I'll by all means get in touch - I was wondering whether to keep it on the off-chance that somebody does want to put it completely back to stock one day, but in reality, by the time I'm done with the car (and that's a big "if ever...") there'd be more work to do to put it back to stock than just replacing the EFI back to CIS, as eventually the internals are going to get upgraded.
Old 08-28-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s5uewf View Post
I converted to EFI and used the stock 930 manifold. The conversion works fantastically well. No regrets. Perhaps I passed on some power gains by not going with a Carrera manifold, but to be honest, I had a simple bolt on upgrade with no hassles and that is what I wanted. Runs like a watch now. I do need to dyno it to get a baseline.

Good luck with your conversion!
Thanks Emery!

Yeah from what I've read, the 930 intake is different (flatter) than the 964 Turbo item...hopefully someone will confirm, but if so, then I think the 964T intake is a halfway house between the 930 and N/A Carrera unit?

Cheers
Spencer
Old 08-28-2011, 04:55 PM
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All the 911 Turbos 1976-94 used basically the same intake manifold. All the ports were 32mm to the heads (except the rare '91-'94 Turbo S).

An advantage of the flat Turbo manifold is it makes for a very responsive engine, ideal for street driving. You cannot run as large a camshaft as with the Carrera manifold (no GT2) but again -- a really big cam is not responsive and good for the street anyhow. Stick with cams that have less overlap, like SC- and 964-based profiles. Having that quick boost response gives you more torque at lower rpms, and thus a wider useable power band and a car that feels really quick.

Don't be concerned that the flat manifold won't make big power, either: we have done several engines that make 600hp at the wheels with moderately ported manifolds and heads (38mm) and only 964-based Sport cams.
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:32 AM
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Full Reply - 1991-92 C2 Turbo EFI conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
As part of the preparation, I rolling-roaded the car a few weeks back to "baseline" the engine. Despite it feeling far quicker than the numbers suggest (to me at least), it's pushing more-or-less stock numbers at 320.1fwhp with stock boost.
Flywheel horsepower or rear wheel horsepower? Is this a full H&S system with headers, or just a muffler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
- Drop the engine and run a leakdown and compression test. The engine looks healthy according to the numbers on the RR, but just to make sure.
- If it's OK, then remove the CIS components and replace with the kit I need for EFI.
This is critical. Obviously, converting to EFI will not remedy any underlying engine troubles. Leakdown numbers on a cold engine should all be <6%, and compression valves should be even, +/-5psi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
- I may well look to replace the stock K27. This is not a track car in any way, so I'm not after mega boost at lofty revs, I'd far rather have a usable quick spooling engine that will demolish Britains finest tarmac without having to redline all the time. I'm also thinking single turbo to keep it relatively simple, although should it be a given that twin scroll is the way we roll these days?...with suitable mods to the turbo mating flange, of course.
Very sensible approach for the street. If twin scroll, that only helps response even more. I posted a dyno on another thread about a CIS 3.3L 930 with a GT35R that we converted to twin scroll, and his gains at 3,000rpm were just incredible. Power was all done by 6,000rpm, so no need to rev it high and reinforce the engine's bottom end with built rods, etc (unless taking it apart anyway).
If you have headers, they can be converted to twin scroll (ex: Tom's Odyssey 930), and you'll use 2 small wastegates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
- The engine management I'm planning on using is MBE
We have heard this was very good from another client in the UK, nice drivability. It will definitely work with any conversion hardware (hardware is universal, accepts any engine management system).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
If all the tests go well, I'll probably leave a top-end or full rebuild for another time.
If all doesn't go so well with leakdowns, then I'll need to decide how far I go with a rebuild. If I'm in that situation, I'll probably be aiming for *about* 400-450rwhp, so will then look at cams and head porting. Depending on P&C condition, may well look to replace with a capacity increase set....and maybe shuffle-pinning...and boat tailing...and twin plugging...and head studs/conrod bolts...and....(see where this is going?!)
Going into the engine is a separate project. The MBE should be flexible to accomodate any future modifications. Keeping this in mind, you can pre-wire any future functions into the harness in the beginning (then you never have to get into the harness again).
With stock 32mm port heads and stock 930/965 cams, expect power to max around 420 at the wheels (about 470hp flywheel).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
1) With my car being a 964, am I right in thinking that if I want to retain the OE intake manifold, this would work better than for the guys doing 930 conversions, which have less than optimal manifolds? In other words, perhaps not such a compelling need to upgrade to the Carrera intake manifold?
1a) If so, then I could swap out the stock CIS injector blocks for those that Chris sells?
1b) ....or would I still be best to go for Carrera intake manifold plus Chris's adapters to mate 42mm > 32mm? This would then mean that any future porting work to the heads could be catered for by swapping out the adapter blocks for larger items, but means a more complicated initial install...and costlier...
1c) I'm undecided on injectors...I run Peco injectors on my Westfield, they seem to be the favoured injector for my MBE-whiz mate (IIRC they have great flow characteristics for low duty cycle, easy to drive by the ECU) - at that point I may need to make custom injector rails rather than use the TurboKraft ones in the Injector Block kit?
1d) What sort of cc flow rate would I need, assuming a stock build?
Our EFI Injector Blocks are the easiest way to convert any 1976-94 Turbo to EFI. They will allow you to re-use teh current manifold, throttle body & linkage, intercooler, air intake... They are the K.I.S.S. solution and available in any bore size from 32mm (stock heads) up to 42mm.

No need to go overboard on injector sizes. The Siemens Deka injectors we use on 90% of our builds are a 660cc (60#) injectors with a nice wide 30-deg spray cone for excellent atomization and fuel distribution in the port. This helps with getting excellent idle and low-speed engine behavior. They are high impedence injectors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
2) Do I need a cylinder head temp sensor on the 964? Or is there one there already?
YES! This is the correct way to get engine temperature for an EFI system. It's how the factory did it. We sell a simple billet adapter kit that allows you to use a stock Bosch head temp sensor.
If you use oil temp, expect very long warm-up times, with the engine running too rich for most of that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
3) Crank position sensor...again, on the 964 is this something that's already present?
You have a sensor and bracket for the EZ69 ignition control unit. Re-use the bracket; the rest goes away. We offer a billet adapter and hall-effect sensor that reads the flywheel for the ECU's engine speed input. Hall-effect is a digital signal, cleaner and more reliable at higher rpms than a mag (magnetic) sensor.
Then use a standard 1990-98 Cup/RS flywheel (or 993TT dual mass if you want a more mild cruiser, totally quiet). If the MBE does not like the Bosch 60-2 flywheel tooth pattern, you can easily re-machine the 60-2 into a 12-tooth pattern -- which is exactly what many, many ECUs mathematically convert other timing patterns into, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
4) Knock sensors? One of my books references a knock sensor bracket but then says "Not Turbo", so I guess that's for the Carreras...can this simply be retro-fitted onto an M30 lump?
The stock cylinders have no provision for this. If the heads are off, they can be machined to accept a 964/993 knock sensor assembly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
5) Assumption - I'm not going to be twin plugging - leave that for a future project - so TurboKrafts single coil/amplifier mounts look like a neat solution.
Thanks! That is a clean setup for distributorless conversions. We sell the plug wires, too. Other ignition options:
- distributorless with CDI: more spark energy, no dwell timing to program; but more cost for 3-channel CDI unit
- distributor with CDI: more spark energy, simple, re-use distributor + wires, just add CDI and new coil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
6) I'm pretty sure that budget will dictate me retaining the stock 964 intercooler for the time being. Is this ok, or a really ill-advised idea?
We have found the stock 965 intercooler supports about 470rwhp (about approx. 525hp flywheel) before it begins to heat-soak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
7) Is it worth retaining the OE wastegate? I've stripped this down before and it looks fine, but as good practice, I'm more than happy to buy a known spring (I have an old receipt on file for a 1bar unit, but it's clearly only boosting to ca.0.7bar) and new diaphragm....or shall I invest in a more modern unit? Pretty sure I'm right in saying the MBE ECU will handle boost control, so I guess I'll need a solenoid for it to control - any stand-out recommendations?
The stock WG is fine, unless:
- it is damaged and needs remanufacturing -- then it is less expensive to replace with a 46mm Tial WG
- you go twin scroll -- then 2x small wastegates (Turbosmart, Tial -- we sell and use both)
If you keep the stock WG, replace the diaphragm and retain the soft spring if you're going to have the ECU control boost.
The solenoid valve used most (AEM, Greddy, Autronic, etc.) is a commercial pneumatic valve, <$50 (yes, we stock and sell those, too.)
Depending on the MBE's software, it may offer 2 boost levels, 3, or full boost trim.
- 2 position: we use a small OEM switch ($20) for a clean look, goes right in the dash in a factory cutout.
- 3 position or trim switch: source locally from electronics supplier, or AEM (12 Position Universal Trim Pot) or Motec
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
Now, the good stuff....what can I remove from the engine when moving away from CIS?
- Fuel distributor head
- WUR
- Vacuum limiter valve?
- Oxygen sensor control unit?
- Acceleration enrichment control unit?
- Auxiliary air regulator?
...what else?
Anything CIS goes away. Check out Bruce's conversion: 1991 Porsche 965 Carrera 2 Turbo | Bruce (apologies for gallery thumbnails being fubar).
Basically, strip the manifold down to just the manifold and throttle body.
The only wiring that stays is the instrumet harness -- and even half that can be cut out.
The oxygen sensor system is deleted, plus it's wring harness and controller under the seat. The other control units under the seat are removed, too.
The EZ69 unit and wiring is removed.
The fuel accumulator and CIS lines is removed, leaving just the fuel supply and return lines leading into the engine compartment.
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Last edited by TurboKraft; 09-04-2011 at 11:42 AM.. Reason: addition
Old 09-04-2011, 11:41 AM
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Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to pen such a comprehensive reply...I know (by reading the other threads) that you have very little time in-between other projects, so again, cheers

The UK evenings are now pulling-in, despite the weather this weekend being better than our summer (!), autumn's started and the long winter nights aren't far away....now I have the perfect winter project!!...Just need to find a temporary home for the Westfield and I have a garage space free to get the engine out and converted....just need to finish a couple of mini-projects, including putting new Bilstein HD's & bushes on and a Centre Gravity geo setup applied, all scheduled for 2 wks time.

God I love this car!
Old 09-04-2011, 12:48 PM
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Hi Spencer.
I had the engine that chris was refering to on my dyno and the numberes were all good car drives like a dream, the grate think is the low down boost well below 3000 if you have any questions just pm me. Neil
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:43 PM
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Smile C2T EFI Conversion - prices

Spencer,
Glad to help. To help make your planning more concrete, here are some prices.
Some OEM parts can be purchased directly from our host, marked with an [a]: CHT, idle motor, FPR, etc.
Other parts are universal and you can source them yourself if you wish: braided lines, metric and AN hose ends, etc.
Other parts are exclusive to TurboKraft.

TK EFI Injector Block Package with Fuel Rails = $1,500.00
* Billet Aluminum EFI Injector Blocks -- specify port size (stock is 32mm)
* Cylinder Head Insulator Blocks & All Gaskets -- blocks port-matched to Intake & Heads
* Machined Aluminum Fuel Rails with -6ORB threaded ports (4 ports per rail)
* Billet Aluminum Fuel Rail Mounts

Siemens Deka Hig Flow Fuel Injectors, High impedance -- set of 6 = $450.00

Complete Rear Fuel System = $550.00
* Braided stainless lines from chassis to filter, fuel rails, FPR, return. Metric hose ends.
* Includes filter ($50 [a]) and Bosch fuel pressure regulator (FPR, $220 [a])

OEM TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), sealed 3-wire + Billet Aluminum Adapter = $182.00

Bosch CHT (Cylinder Head Temperature) Sensor = $115.00 [a]
+ Billet Aluminum Adapter $55.00

3bar MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) Sensor = $110.00

IAT (Intake Air Temperature) Sensor + Weld Bung = $60.00

Hall-Effect Sensor -- Crankshaft position (REF) = $100.00
+ Billet Sensor Adapter = $37.50

Hall-Effect Sensor -- Camshaft position (SYNCH) = $100.00
+ Billet Sensor Adapter = $37.50

Bosch Idle Stabilizer Motor, 3-wire, with mount = $225.00 [a]

Boost Control Solenoid Valve with Low/High cockpit switch = $70.00

M&W CDI, 3-channel = $710.00
(Optional: Bosch 3-channel Ignition Module -- inductive ignition = $205.00) [a]
Wasted Spark Ignition Coil, set of 3 = $195.00
Coil Pack Rack -- for 3x coils = $78.00
Set of Ignition Wires = $90
Billet Distributor Plug = $32.00

Optional: simple single plug CDI ignition: new MSD 6AL2 CDI unit + high energy coil = $425
...or M&W Pro-10 CDI + high output coil = $675
NOTE: This requires modifying and re-using the stock distributor

If the MBE can read a high speed NTC temperature sensor for the air temp, like the stock 965 sensor in the intercooler, that is ideal.
It is possible the MBE reads the 60-2 flywheel pattern natively, and accepts a mag sensor (stock 965 flywheel pickup), but we still recommend changing to a Hall-effect sensor. Even Motec's M600 can have high rpm timing errors reading 60-2 with a mag sensor.
If you choose to run inductive ignition, and the MBE has built-in ignitors (ignition amplifiers), you will not need the external 3-channel ignitor.
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TurboKraft, Inc.
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Old 09-04-2011, 06:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Flywheel horsepower or rear wheel horsepower? Is this a full H&S system with headers, or just a muffler?
That was FW horsepower Chris, I quickly scanned in the dyno sheet as a jpg which should appear below:



Look "normal" and healthy in your opinion?

I was led to believe that the system (headers, cat and silencer) was an H&S item, but looking at their site today, it looks pretty much nothing-like!!...and judging by some of the other "creative" statements by the dealer who sold me the car, H&S was quite possibly plucked from thin-air...certainly nothing in the paperwork file to substantiate it.

Some pics below, but now looking at a) the latest H&S offering, it's significantly different, and b) then Brians RarleyL8 systems, mine looks to have anything other than equal length primaries.

At this point, I wonder whether I'd be best to sell mine on and invest in some new, known headers?









The "silencer" (that actually looks to only have a cat converter contained in it) sits transversely approx behind the license plate, above and siamesed with the pipes you can see underneath the rear valance....strange design, not one that Brian has seen before....f'ing loud though!

Quote:
If you choose to run inductive ignition, and the MBE has built-in ignitors (ignition amplifiers), you will not need the external 3-channel ignitor.
I'm pretty sure that the MBE systems do now have everything built-in - certainly the (older) MBE system I have on the Westfield just needs external Bosch amplifiers that then fire Magnetti Marelli coils, one per cylinder....but even that ECU is now 4-5yrs old and thus "old" in technology terms.

Have tried catching up with Steve (re MBE) today on the phone, but work keeps getting in the way! Hopefully tomorrow morning for a chat about the management side of this.

Quote:
You have a sensor and bracket for the EZ69 ignition control unit. Re-use the bracket; the rest goes away. We offer a billet adapter and hall-effect sensor that reads the flywheel for the ECU's engine speed input. Hall-effect is a digital signal, cleaner and more reliable at higher rpms than a mag (magnetic) sensor.
Then use a standard 1990-98 Cup/RS flywheel (or 993TT dual mass if you want a more mild cruiser, totally quiet).
Is the swap to either a Cup/RS or 993TT flywheel mandatory, Chris?...Assuming the MBE can read and resolve a 60-2 tooth pattern, can I simply bin the magnetic sensor, install your adapter and Hall Effect sensor, then use this with my stock 965 F/W? (sorry, speaking "blind" until I get to have a look at this.

Although I would love the idea of swapping to an RS F/W (IIRC, you supplied this setup to a mate/colleague of mine, James Markham for his 965), I've read what seem to be horror stories of stalling engines because the management can't deal with the reduction in inertia....or is this nothing to worry about in this context?...and it's another>$1k on the bottom line, with new clutch etc.

Spreadsheet looking more populated! Thanks for the link to Bruce's build - very helpful.

Cheers
S
Old 09-05-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
Look "normal" and healthy in your opinion?
Yes, it does, fairly typical for that boost pressure.

Maybe that's an older version of their exhaust? Some of it looks similar to their current offering. If the headers become a problem in achieving performance, they're usually straight-forward to swap out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
Is the swap to either a Cup/RS or 993TT flywheel mandatory, Chris?...Assuming the MBE can read and resolve a 60-2 tooth pattern, can I simply bin the magnetic sensor, install your adapter and Hall Effect sensor, then use this with my stock 965 F/W? (sorry, speaking "blind" until I get to have a look at this.
Although I would love the idea of swapping to an RS F/W (IIRC, you supplied this setup to a mate/colleague of mine, James Markham for his 965), I've read what seem to be horror stories of stalling engines because the management can't deal with the reduction in inertia....or is this nothing to worry about in this context?...and it's another>$1k on the bottom line, with new clutch etc.
Yes, we shipped that package to James, too.
I do not know if the MBE ECU can operate in sequential mode reading the 3 teeth of the 965 flywheel. I know AEM doesn't like it -- it like 12 signals per engine cycle, not just 6. Check with Steve at MBE about this.
Otherwise, I would not hesitate at all running the Cup flywheel. Yes, you have to add revs to pull away from a stop, but to ask James about this and he'll tell you it's a non-issue. He told me he finds the car loads easier to drive and shift with the lighter flywheel. You do hear some minor gearbox noise in neutral with the pedal out, however, but may not hear it over your current exhaust. ;-)

We only ever had 1 car (1995 993 converted to Twin Turbo) that had a stalling issue with the lightweight flywheel. We simply took an OEM approach and connected a vehicle speed sensor to the ECU. Whenever the vehicle was in motion (V>0) with no throttle -- like coasting up to a traffic light -- it settled to a high idle of 1,100rpm. When V=0, idle slides down to whatever you set it to (we had it at 850rpm, no problems). Most modern ECUs have a similar function available.
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Old 09-05-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSMotorsport View Post
Hi Spencer.
I had the engine that chris was refering to on my dyno and the numberes were all good car drives like a dream, the grate think is the low down boost well below 3000 if you have any questions just pm me. Neil
Interesting...thanks Neil. Is your dyno cell all up and running now?
Old 09-06-2011, 04:42 AM
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Hi Guys,

Lots of progress this last few weeks - been steadily getting on with removing the engine and gearbox; a little nerve-wracking for the first time but all straightforward. As somebody said in another thread, it's not a difficult job, but it is a big one!

I'll post some pics shortly once I've sorted some out.

Because it is a major chunk of time and effort, I'm now debating (as many do!!) whether to:

a) do nothing apart from clean it and "just" convert to EFI.
b) or to do a top-end rebuild; not been able to do a leak down test, my new tester looks to be faulty (gauge not zeroing) and I can't get hold of the supplying company....but there are signs of oil weeping from rocker seals, slight weeping of oil down the exhaust valve guides and between heads/cam housings.
c) do a full teardown.

The full teardown appeals in so much that it's then a good opportunity to fit not only ARP head studs, but also ARP rod bolts, for future safety and tuning. Engine has 84-85k miles, so is closer to needing a refresh than not needing one. I guess?

I'm running some numbers to investigate likely costs of this - it wasn't in the original plan - but looking into gasket and seals plus the items you would replace, one of the local independent Porsche parts companies can supply a kit of the following parts:

Rod Bearing Set (Standard)
Main Bearing Set (Standard)
Piston Ring Sets
Valve Guides (Exhaust)
Valve Guides (Intake)
Sumps Gasket Set (Lower)
Head Gasket Set (Upper)
Chain Rail - Right Straight
Chain Rail - Left Straight
Chain Rail - Curved
Timing Chains - Endless
Intermediate Shaft Bearings - Large
Intermediate Shaft Bearings - Small

My question is whether you guys would go for "OEM" items for the above? The supplier clearly states they are, but the same parts from my local Porsche dealer is almost $1,600 more expensive, (£1,200 vs £2,100)...not insignificant or even close.

Is this a case of "avoid at all costs" or does it depend?....Thoughts?

Cheers
Spencer.
Old 11-21-2011, 01:44 PM
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Which EFI convertion is the most bolt on and the most easy way to do yourself?

TurboKraft. The intake(911 Carrera INT Man)on your web page what have you treated the aluminum intake with?
Old 11-23-2011, 08:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Spenny,
Keep the original wastegate, they are bullet-proof, different springs are available. You could get an aftermarket Tial, but why.
That brings back fond memories of my brick, rusted together and whistling like a kazoo through the valve guide. Switching to a Tial saved about 20 lb too
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 11-24-2011, 06:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
That brings back fond memories of my brick, rusted together and whistling like a kazoo through the valve guide. Switching to a Tial saved about 20 lb too
I may well be switching to a pair of Tials; a very good friend of mine may be giving (yes, giving!) me his GT35R, currently fitted to his Supra...he's about to switch to either a bigger Garrett or a BW as part of his quest for ca.650+ hp....it's a "thank you" for getting him a job where I work Would want to get it rebuilt for freshness, but that would really step the project "up"!
Old 11-25-2011, 02:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
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Ok, update time….sitting here on holiday, the perfect time to start updating the thread with progress.

Firstly here’s some “along the way” pics, including the mandatory empty-engine-bay shot!



















Almost 20 years of grime and some oil weeps along the way – the usual mess that everyone encounters, I’m sure.

It’s actually taken quite a while to get to the stage I’m at – I know that the engine/box can be dropped out in half a day by those that do this day-in/day-out, probably a days work for those that have done it at least once before. I deliberately took my time (after all, this is the fun bit for me, don’t want to rush through it and complete it ASAP), photographing as much as I could before dismantling, bagging everything and scrawling notes. If it was a bad day at work, then frankly, I left it well alone – too much to go wrong if working without a clear head.

So far, extremely pleased I bought some items in preparation:

The engine stand you see here is a second one that I have, Sealey and 900kgs capable. I also have one with a “T” layout leg arrangement, fine for my inline “4” Westfield engine – a lot lighter and is never on the stand fully dressed, but not robust enough for the full dressed 911 turbo lump. That’s going to be eBay’d at some point – this 900kg monster is going to be challenging to store when done, lol!

The engine lift bar, sold by our hosts proved very useful – nice and simple, chains are the right length, etc. The only comment that I have fed back to Pelican is that the supplied engine mount “eyes” that you can use to lift the chassis up with, are not suitable for the later cars; certainly not a 964, as the mounting bolts are further apart than the eyes. I only found this out once fully committed to removing the engine at 1.00am (it wasn’t described in the online catalogue, but may well now be fixed after my feedback). Thankfully, I was able to get away with just using 1 bolt per mount, then being very careful whilst hoisting the car up, keeping a couple of axle stands underneath, adjusting one hole at a time.

The full basket style engine carrier yoke. I did debate whether I could get by with just using the supplied mounts that came with the stand along with the half-ring available from our hosts…but decided to spend the extra few $$’s and have the SIR tools version (again from Pelican). Glad I did, very sturdy.

In addition to this, despite having acquired over 20yrs what I consider to be a nice tool set, there have been numerous trips to the local tool shop and many a late night eBay purchase, to get the stuff I’ve never needed before, not least of which my cam removal tool from a chap in Canada!



As you can see in the pics, the rear tinware is completely shagged, so that needs replacing (apparently vital for the intercooler to function, despite somebody tell me to just leave it off!)
Old 12-27-2011, 11:02 AM
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