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964, NOT just another engine build with oil leaks
Its a great deal more removing the engine especially if I don't do 964 everyday. The engine was diagnosed with case bolts leaking. The rubber hose on the bottom of the tank was marking its spot as was the panel under the engine. Its amazing how clean the engine is with the panel removed. 150K and the oil tubes are still shiny.
The fun Saturday was taking it out of the car and today is looking at the cleanup needed just to work on the engine. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315834494.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315834598.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315834676.jpg |
Bottom pics looks like alot more than case through bolts. PCV cover/OPRV cover/oil pressure sending unit leaking at all???
Your car? I love the 964's, my favorite of the aircooled street Porsches. I will own or build a 3.8RS rep at some point in my life :) |
This is a good time to sand and pain the tins.
Mark |
Well, I havent got the 3.6 all opened yet, still have to get the exhaust and the cat out of the way. All I can say is, It ain't a 3.2., there is more hoses and wires running everywhere and then there is bags of insulation between the engine and the exhaust. My younger brother always says, if there is oil in them, there is oil on them.
Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316137197.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316137280.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316137363.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316137440.jpg |
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Thats not an engine Bruce thats a seive. Must say I dont have an leaks since my rebuild and that ~2,000 miles now.
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It must have been sealed up before they invented Triplebond:)
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I'll be interested to hear how you deal with the flaking coating on the insides of the valve covers... it can't be good for your motor, having that stuff floating around in the oil.
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Well, no head gaskets so the factory updates were never done at the time.
There is 24 dilivars in place too, got to swap them out too. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316382292.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316382317.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316382344.jpg |
Wow, I have never seen so much blow by with all of the head studs still intact, were the head gaskets a cure for some of that?
Woo Wee that is one dirty little mutha. Oh, and thanks for taking us on another ride Bruce! Looking forward to this one :) |
I split the bottom end today, it sure needs cleaning. The inside was choice as expected, original bearings in excellent condition. The intermediates are shot as usual, showing brass.
Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316628596.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316628672.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316628707.jpg |
Bruce, what kinda shop you running there cuz somebody lost their drawers splitting that case:eek:
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I'm really looking forward to following this rebuild. I have never seen so much oil on a motor...
Will it be a "stock" build, or are you looking for performance updates too? |
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I saw the post and knew Id hear about the skivvies...
Bruce |
Well, I pulled the mains and marked them all for location. First a cleaning in the
Safety Kleen and then some outside time with the pressure washer. Back on the engine stand and removing the 24 dilivars. Next step is putting the crank and oil pump back in and resealing the bottom. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316656949.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316656970.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316656995.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316657012.jpg |
Great work here Bruce...let me ask you something...if you are retired & working at a retired persons pace I presume, how the heck do you pump out work like this & so fast...?? I read earlier that you worked for a shop or dealer or such for 30+ yrs, but man oh man do you do nice work & at a fast clip...!!
Keep up the great work & sharing what is encountered as this is great to watch... Bob |
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Took a couple days off with the family and I m back home on Sunday at 2:30. 5 hours on the road from the mountains to home, I need to unwind.
Off to the garage and put the halves together..Tomorrow torque the cross bolts which already have some pressure on them. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316993422.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316993449.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316993468.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316993483.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316993501.jpg |
Fedex brought a nice package, all cleaned up, polished and a new belt in the distributor, Mark Cohen, thanks,
Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317060898.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317060920.jpg |
The mail box was full today, package of injectors from MrInjector, sent out last Tuesday, today, back and up to new from being down 4 to 6.5 % on some or 1 up to standard.
Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317160276.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317160288.jpg |
Bruce,
This injector guy has great prices and sounds like great service from what you have seen. I think I will invest the $$$$s before I put these injectors into use. What a difference they made on your injectors for this project, the owner will feel that difference. Thanks for the lead. |
Hello Bruce,
This may sound dumb of me, but I wanted to confirm: When you put the case back together, did you re-use the main bearings (in which case I would assume you never removed them)? If you did do this, would you normally have taken any measurements of the bore and checked case alignment with the bearing shells in? In general, if you do re-use, what is your normal criteria? Thanks for the great pics and information (on this and on your other threads)! |
500_19B
Good questions, lets see what I can do to explain. I m doing a top end basically on a running engine. The oil pressure is good and in spec. This tells you that the bearings are good. You can see in the pictures that the center line has leaked a lot over the years. Engine is stripped down, the heads are off, the cylinders and studs are off. The outside diagnosis is the cross bolts are leaking. Weather its a 3.0/ 3.2 or 3.6 i open the case to tell the owner what he bought. Its a few hours and $50 worth of bottom gaskets. I remove all the bearings and record the location on the bearing so it goes back exactly where it has always run. Now I can dip the case to clean it, I can tell the owner if its been opened before, if the bearings are Porsche or aftermarket, if the crank is standard, and the shape or quality of the bearings. If the main bearings are smooth, its indictative of the rods quality. If the bearings are bad, full of dirt scratches or wear, its necessary to open the rods because everything has to be redone. What the mains look like as far as grit in the oil also tells us what the rod bearings will look like. Everything goes back exactly where it was, new intermediate bearings, all new bottom seals and probably good for the next 100K miles, P&Cs are inspected, cleaned and assembled. The heads get back and assemble with cam and rockers. Its just a matter of hours to having the long block assembled. Bruce |
Great info Bruce...I have a question re opening the bottom end: I agree that you can provide the owner w/ a wealth of info ie case opened before or not; original bearings or not, ect...my question is, IF you are that deep into it = case opened, don't you want to replace all of the bearings to best assure another 100k+ vs leaving in the engine bearings that are now how ever many 10's of thousand miles old...?? Maybe to best protect you a/o customer from them acting up in the near future after re assembly OR, are the bottom ends on these 3.0, 3.2 & 3.6 as bullet proof = 300k+ units as many people say, thus if bearings look ok you don't replace & leave well enough alone...??
Thx again for sharing your great wealth of knowledge & info to fellow pelicans... :-) Bob |
Bruce,
I made it to the OBX without getting lost! I really enjoyed visiting with you, hope to swing by again when the search for my car is over. To all others, Bruce is a very cordial host, as well as a heck of a wrench. He is a very genuine encyclopedia of Porsche information, who shares unselfishly. Thanks again, Mike |
Hello Bruce,
Thank you for your detailed answer to my question! I understand now: Instead of a pure top-end, you are investing an incremental amount of time to check things in the bottom end (which usually means a replacement of the intermediate shaft bearings, but oftentimes, not much else). Thank you again, Allan |
Following with interest. Preparing for a top end job on my 3.6. Keep posting - really helpfull !
Tom |
I had to pull the 24 dilivars and it was getting to the question of what studs to use. The owner was up in the air as to which was his preference, my preference, if he was buying aftermarket was the Super Tech with the fine threads on the out side to torque the heads, everything else seemed factory with no reason to pay wild amounts of money for factory type threads with nothing more to offer
I grooved one of the dilivars so I could chase the old locktite out of the threads. Worked like a champ, now the dilivar stud is part of the tool box. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317778113.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317778130.jpg |
Saturday, in North Carolina, is beautiful outside. The owner wanted to project the body and he stayed busy. I suggested the sound insulation and the tank hose leaks.
He got on them and met the challenge, job complete. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318126047.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318126065.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318126081.jpg |
Bruce, why replace the dilivars? Routine part of top end job? Re-assmbly problems?
Which replacements did you end up using? Thanks for sharing. Tom |
Bruce:
I have never worked on a 964, so have a (dumb) question with regard to oil cooling. As you know, with the SC, the rear passenger side houses the thermostat with oil lines going to the front oil cooler. Does the 964 have a thermostat? Is this a picture of the 964's oil tank, which on an SC would of course be farther back near the rear of the engine compartment? Thanks. |
Tom, I replace the dilivars because history, to me, has showed that they dont like to retorque on a refresh and I cant take a chance on one breaking after torquing the heads. I never had a problem with reinstalling new dilivars on builds but have gotten away from that with stock steel.
If you dont change them there is a chance of a stud breaking after rebuild. These are the SuperTec studs with the fine thread on the outside and the fine threads makes sense for fine torque spec. Ed, The thermostat is licated below the oil tank and operates like the Carrera flowing oil to the front fender. Yes, this is a stock 90 964 that I m building and fixing oil leaks. Bruice |
OK, sounds best to change the studs out. Are the Supertec pieces that much better than steel (appear to be 2x expensive)?
"P&Cs cleaned and inspected" - how best to do? Is this something a DIY guy to do, or do you send them out? I feel comfortable doing the disaasembly and reassembly, how best to clean up? I'll be sending the heads out to be done, P&Cs too? (my engine has 68k miles) Thanks again, Tom |
We're in a quandry because this is a 3.6 and we have to change the P&Cs out for later style and the heads have to be flycut to produce a different sealing surface. The engine has 24 dilivar to compensate for even stretch on a heat cycle.
The owner chose to do aftermarket studs and I think the only reason to go that way is to Super tech with the fine threads to better control of the torque and he agreed. Youre doing 3.2 so you need to follow the other posting i have because this is much more complicated than the pre 3.6 engines that have built in defects. Bruce Bruce |
Beautiful. Can you tell us what a job like this costs? And what all is involved. Sorry for the newbie question, but I'm thinking of buying a '92 964 that needs an engine rebuild ( leak down of from 7% to 33%) Thanks.
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The 92 is less than this one. This is a 90 and suffers from P/Cs with bad sealing surfaces and heads that need to be reworked for sealing surfaces
The owner made the decisions after talking with people in the know and went with the Super Tec head studs, good used P&Cs, and Ollies doing the heads. Bruce |
Hey Bruce, Tried calling you back but no answer. I assune you are busy. I had to work late and the post office was closed when i got off. Ill try again friday. my apologies. Great work. i know who i will recommend in the future! Barry
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Well, I ve been gone for 36 hours to get a parts car and engine. I got back and my wife had the boxes stacked at the garage door.
Boxes from Ollies in Arizona and 911T fanatic. Heads and inspected P/Cs for the update on the early 964. Powder coating for the fan and housing. Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319412127.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319412157.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319412177.jpg |
Heads, cams, rockers installed, valves adjusted.
Bruce http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319586172.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319586196.jpg |
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