Budget 3.2 head stud replacement project
 

A few weeks ago I was excitedly pulling the valve covers to do a valve adjustment as I finally was wrapping up the work on my newly acquired 911 SC (with 3.2) and getting ready to put it back on the road. After pulling the right side valve cover, my heart sank as the telltale ‘clank’ of metal parts falling on concrete greeted my ears and I looked down to find a chunk of head stud on the floor.

The car had excellent compression and leakdown numbers, and ran well on the 1500+ mile trip home from CA, so I’ve now embarked on a budget head stud replacement project. I REALLY don’t want this to turn into a full rebuild. It ran well, so I’m trying not to invite trouble or spend more than I really have to. Dropping a motor is really no big deal for me, so even things like the clutch are being ignored because it worked fine and it’s only a couple hours to drop the motor again when I need to change it. However, I don’t want to be excessively penny wise and pound foolish, so I’ve bit the bullet and bought the replacement fuel lines from Len to avoid burning this car to the ground with lines that are of unknown age.

High-level, here’s my shopping list and intentions:
- New steel coated head studs/nuts/washers
- New fuel lines
- All needed gaskets
- New hardware where needed (exhaust studs, some intake/cam tower barrel nuts, some rocker shaft hardware)
- Clean/sandblast/paint engine shrouds, valve covers, etc. Not going to be able to help myself here.
- Turbo oil return restrictors

Budget/scope limiting moves:
- No splitting of the case
- Pistons remain in cylinders throughout process
- No head rebuilds (Burned about ½ qt in 1000 miles, though I’ll throw new valve seals in just because)
- Not removing the center chain housing/main pulley
- Not replacing the tensioner oil lines - they weren’t leaking and they are fairly easy to get to again.


I’ll post up my progress so far a little later. I’m already torn down to the case and have most of my stuff ordered. Initial thoughts or big stupid things I’m missing?

Snowball resistance - good luck, I couldn't help myself once I started reading and inspecting and not wanting to go back in for another 10yrs. A lot of areas on these engines demand attention as "cheap insurance" which is all fine and dandy except there are so many cheap insurances that the aggregate is easily $3000-$5000 in parts and machine work. The end result, at least for me, is having something you now place more confidence in.

Inspect the timing chain ramps, chains, sprockets idlers and tensioners; anything out of alignment will chew through the sprockets and wear down the chain. Cracked, missing or gouged ramps should be replaced unless you want to go back in when they start slapping around. Check the cam lobes for wear/gouges, rocker contacts for wear/gouges, broken valve springs, valve seats for warping, valve guide wear(easy especially if you're doing the seals). Consider the RSR rocker seals for reinstall. ARP rod bolts without case split, Etc..

You should budget for a set of Supertec studs and new exhaust valveguides. Your valveguides might be ok, but I would not bet on that! In my 3.2 the exhaust valveguide was shoot after 30.000 miles... found that out after a head stud broke.

My cheapo DIY opinion having done a few top ends with good success.

Some suggestions for while you're in there that are cheap fixes.


>Internal t-stat o-ring. Easy replacement with engine already out.

>Oil pressure warning light switch. This often leaks at the crimp joint. Good insurance to replace if yours looks even questionable.

>Check case breather hose. If very firm/inflexible, should replace.

>Flatten/mill your intake insulators to make sure they seal well. 3.2 intake is notorious for leaking.

>Flush intake manifold with solvent. You'll be surprised how much oil you find in the sump of the manifold halves. It's because the oil tank is vented to the throttle body rubber boot and a full oil tank will puke some oil at high rpms, along with the buildup of general oil vapor.

>Flatten/mill your cam cover plates. You'll be surprised how NOT flat they are.

>Check your engine oil supply hose from the tank to the feed tube below the oil cooler. If hardened/showing cracks, replace. DO NOT buy a URO brand replacement!

Exhaust studs.........
 

IF, you should happen to break an exhaust stud while removing the exhaust system, and there is still a piece of the stud to grasp, some heat from a propane or mapp gas torch will allow a fairly easy removal of the remaining piece. Drilling would be needed only if the stud breaks flush with the head. Lots of penetrating oil and heat from a torch will go a long way towards avoiding a broken stud! Good luck!

Some excellent tips here, thank you. I will take them to heart and post some updates shortly.

My exhaust studs are in terrible shape, I managed to get the nuts off with heat and a cold chisel and didn't damage the studs further, but they are unuseable nonetheless. I tried heat (oxy/acetylene) , soaked them in Kroil for a week, etc.

On the one stud that I tried to remove, I welded a nut to it, heated the head, etc. and it still broke. Twice. I then drilled it 90% out and tried to gently use an easy-out to finish the job. Mistake! I have an easy out snapped off in the head now. I've dropped that head off at a machine shop that has an EDM machine to burn out the easy-out and the rest of the heads are at another machine shop that I've had good luck with in the past for stud removal.

I have just dropped my 3.0 SC engine for the same reason. Advice I was given was that as I wouldn't have dropped the engine except for the head studs, and everything else was OK, why mess with it? Some preventative maintenance is a good idea but as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Something to ponder over?

I am going to replace vacuum pipes, fuel pipes (possibly) and any damaged or worn nuts and bolts so if I need to take it all out again, it will come apart!

(And give it a damn good clean up of course).

Welllll, I rebuilt my engine two years ago but stopped at the case (did not split it). Did everything but the case. Well now its apart again. Should have gone the extra yard and did it all "while in there"

Just some food for thought.

Chris
73 911 E

Why did you have to tear it down again?

pulled a head stud :-(

Currently in a bazillion pieces in my garage. Big pieces come off tonight (heads, cooler, p/c's)

Chris
73 911 E

Engine pulled - Got to use my Corvair engine cart. :)
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps445d778e.jpg

Torn down to the case -
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps907e3599.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps610d5bd2.jpg

The valves sounded good to me previously and the oil consumption seemed minimal. I'll bear in mind the warning on the seals...maybe I'll pull just one apart for inspection for committing to the rest.

I assume this is something that I'd have the machine shop do...that the 'sandpaper on glass' technique doesn't scale well to the cam tower size.

Engine pulled - Got to use my Corvair engine cart. :)
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps445d778e.jpg

Torn down to the case -
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps907e3599.jpg
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...ps610d5bd2.jpg

The valves sounded good to me previously and the oil consumption seemed minimal. I'll bear in mind the warning on the seals...maybe I'll pull just one apart for inspection for committing to the rest.

I assume this is something that I'd have the machine shop do...that the 'sandpaper on glass' technique doesn't scale well to the cam tower size.

If you're set up to disassemble the heads (can rent a basic valve spring compressor from local auto parts store) then it's no big deal to check a few valves for wear. Usually #3 or #6 cyl are the worst so check one of those heads. Since your valves were quiet and oil consumption was low, that's certainly a good sign.

No need to machine the cam plates. Fine grit wetsand paper on glass works just fine. That's what I do. You can use a fine tooth file on the cam housing itself to knock down the ridges and check the flatness of the housing end. Color it with permanent marker and then do the file test. You'll be surprised how much marker remains as you work the file around the sealing surface of the cam bore

Nice job putting in work to get to this point. My suggestion is to clean everything 10x's. I wrapped my chains with plastic and tape to keep debris from them and stuffed the opening around them with clean rags. Red solo cups in the case spigot bores kept debris out of the case as well while cleaning. Paper towels in the oil tube and distributor holes. WD40 and brake clean, old soft bristle brush to get the slime off; no water.

Good time to replace the case through bolt o-rings with the Viton available from the host as well. You can do these one at a time without splitting the case.

Send out everything for sandblast and powder coat early - perimeter tins, cross bar and the like. Nothing like kicking butt on your end and running into a parts wait on a vendor or supplier.

I find it ASTONISHING that people (seen this before) don't clean the engine before stripping it down..... Specially when you are only doing a top end rebuild.

1. Pull engine
2. degrease and power wash
3. remove tins, shroud, exhaust
4. degrease and wash again.
then
5. strip down engine

My own taste but I don't using water on engines if I can help it. You can clean just as well/better with other methods and not worry about corrosion or phantom issues with water finding a way into harnesses/sensors etc.

Different strokes I suppose. I've seen enough running issues with moisture in harnesses to last a lifetime.

I'll take moisture in the harness over crud in the engine any day of the week....

But you don't have to hose down the harness and I'm not saying to do it once a week, just before engine rebuild....

But lets not high jack the thread anymore, was just an observation.

Cleanliness is next to godliness. I like everything as clean as possible. And demand it of my product.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1370475326.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1370475356.jpg

The thought of taking a 3.2 this far down without splitting take case is penny wise and pound foolish.

I know, enough of the folksy wisdom.

I have seen quite a few 3.2, 3.3 and 3.6 engines fail shortly after a major repair simply because the true history of the engine is unknown.
The weak link in the 3.2-3.6 rod is the undersized rod bolt. A simple over-rev can make extended life a big question. There is also the issue of contamination while performing this monument task.
Some have suggested rod bolt / rod bearing replacement without splitting the case and although it can be done is rarely a good idea. Rod bolts fit differently and to replace a rod bolt (same brand or different) without rebuilding a rod with undetermined history is asking for trouble.
Split the case, rebuild and replace the poor quality factory bolts with ARP and buy a little peace of mind.

Find oil leak minor oil leak, rebuild entire engine. Typical snowball. Would have been better off to drive another 100k miles without looking down and only topping off the oil.

Thanks for the tips on how to keep the gunk from the inside of the case. Of course I have my own sandblaster as well, so that work still on my list.

Fair enough. I'm a pretty astonishing guy, really, when I think about it. ;)

I thought the same thing when I got down to the block. I actually know better than this, I essentially followed the steps you mention on the last couple of Subaru head gasket jobs I did. I just got excited about teardown in this case and was more nervous, not knowing the motor intimately, about where I'd get pressurized water and not know it when I wasn't planning to split the case.

Henry, I have great respect for your experience and expertise. I'm trying to balance the realities of likely failures on this future 99.98% street car vs. the likelihood that I will be in for another $5-8k because when I split the case, recon the rods, do bearings, etc., how could I justify not doing rings, P&C, rebuilt heads, etc? Right now the scales are tipping in the 'leave it alone' direction for me.

If I throw a rod in a couple years I'll eat my crow and take my lumps for it.

I agree with Henry!!!!!!
 

Cleanliness IS next to godliness! I am in the process of building an engine right now and so far, about 1/2 of the time spent (5 weeks since engine drop) has been used cleaning parts. On the engine block halves, I would clean on them until I thought they were done, go back the next day and see places that needed more work. This went on until I could not find any more spots of grunge that would come off with any of the several brushes that I used nor would be affected by any of the cleaners. I don't have access to a soda or dry ice blaster which would have done a more perfect job, but with enough effort and attention to detail a good job can still be done without them.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1370517732.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1370517971.jpg


[QUOTE=Henry Schmidt;7483152]Cleanliness is next to godliness. I like everything as clean as possible. And demand it of my product.}

These price are just estimates, not an offer to perform the work

Rebuild rods $200
Rod bearings $180
ARP rod bolts $280
Case gasket set $80
Reuse mains $0
Reuse chains $0
Reuse oil pump $0
Intermediate bearings $80
Check crank $ 60 If crank has issue you dodged a bullet by finding it now.
case labor ? I don't know what your time is worth
Dry film lubricant on new and used bearings $90

There's nothing else in there, where is the the $5000?
Oil consumption from worn rings or valve guides you can live with, a magic window from a thrown rod, not so much.

I've seen three of these types of projects lose a connecting rod within 250 miles.

I bought an engine with a good history (known) from a totaled car, did a valve job and rings, drove it a while only to find a rod knock.
My assumption was that no one drives a car with a rod knocking. Later we found out the throttle stuck on impact.
The gamble is really in the history....How well do you know the history?

Good luck

It is interesting having read this and other threads that the opinion of specialists particularly is that you should pull everything apart and fully rebuild the engine if it is out. I have my engine out to replace head studs and that is all I am doing. If the bottom end fails afterwards, then I was going to anyway even if I hadn't taken the engine out! I have a little more faith than a lot of people on these threads that these engines are not actually complete rubbish, and have some chance of staying together. I keep being told what great engineering goes into them after all. I have partially rebuilt many different engines n the past without problems. I don't expect, provided correct procedures are adhered to, that this one will be any different! Maybe I am wrong and Porsche engine engineering is actually rubbish after all??

Fred, your project is looking great. Keep it up.

To be fair, nothing to say you won't miss a shift with your new full engine rebuild and over rev on the test drive either. There is a time and place for a full rebuild and case split. That time may be always if advising other people how to spend their money for the maximum assurance. Reasonable assurance is another thing entirely. We all pack our own chutes but we trust the seamstress.

In fact, when it came to the engineering involved in the 3.2-3.6 connecting rod, it was complete rubbish. The weight of the piston vs the 9mm rod bolt cross section is indeed a bad design. That combined with bad rod angularity (worse as the engine got larger) and an incredibly arcane oil delivery schematic, makes the rods susceptible to failure. I've seen rod nuts finger tight upon disassembly of good running engines.
If you don't believe me, try to buy a good used crank for a 3.2 or 3.3.

On a side note: Porsche never used the 9mm rod bolt on any 911 based race engine.
Why is that?

The truth is, with a properly assembled engine, you can survive a miss shift or 10 because you would have replaced the suspect rod bolts with a stronger (ARP or Raceware) bolt.
But that's not the point.
If you are that far into a 3.2-3.6 engine it really doesn't cost that much as I illustrated earlier so that is the "time and place". If your rod does fail, you could/will be looking at a huge bill.
Of course as a professional I do it right as often as budgets permit but some "while you're in there'" things are warranted not just a luxury.
As a poker player I understand risk vs reward and I would rarely risk thousands on unknown rods/ bolts in a 3.2.

Henry, you're pretty focused this early in the morning so you must be enjoying your second cup o'joe. Rod bolts won't save you from valve float. You can very well reason your way into anything with these engines. This guy titled this thread as budget so let's help him with that in mind. Your experience is finger tight rod bolts? I'd recommend an LS1 swap to escape the nightmare of inferior design. Otherwise, maybe he should just confirm torque on those instead of spending a grand minimum on a case split? Food for thought and fuel for the fires this morning. ;)

I live on a farm, so I've been up since 4:00. It's never too early to offer accurate, well established information (facts) to assist people in determining their best course of action.
Accurate information is never a bad thing when you're in the process of navigating a project, budget or not.

Me too. Cows, chickens (meat and laying), pigs, and turkeys year round. 3 dogs keep watch. Sometimes foxes and coyotes but they're "dispatched with prejudice".

Truth is sometimes the very best doesn't fit. Might be why giving advice to DIY folks when you're a professional where things must be perfect is such a task. Some of these are $10k toy cars so an additional $1k engine work on something that's working perfectly fine on a street car is hard to justify. It's a different measure than someone like you building vintage race engines that are punished and warrantied. Different methods will certainly apply.

This whole thing is getting crazy again.
We're not talking about vintage race engines and what ifs. This is a specific engine.
A 3.2 with unknown history "newly acquired" that is disassembled to the case.
The weak link in this engine and all 911 engines that use 3.2 rod with 9mm bolts (not all Porsche 911 engines) is the rod design and oiling to #2 and # 5 rods.
History shows unexpected catastrophic rod failures in these engines with severe financial consequences are common.
As long as you [editorial you] have all the information before making your decision, you can take the risk intelligently. I'm not telling anyone to do anything because I don't have their personal information (budget, skill set, time frame, etc). What I do have are the real facts [about how these engine work, how & why they fail] and that is what I share.

Do you case split each one of these that doesn't have ARP rod hardware? If rod failures were that bad then there should be a class action suit to get in on.

All 3.2-3.6 Porsche engines with unknown history need to have the rod bolts replaced. IMPO
If this was a 78-83 911SC engine, I would most likely say "run it".
Asking me (Supertec) what we do is irrelevant because we have a specific service. We only do complete overhauls, product development and machine work on 911 based engines.
We don't do R&R, we don't tune or repair engines and we don't service cars unless they belong to me.

I agree with Henry, its so little extra to split the case if everything is alright and if it's not you are lucky to have caught it! Its mostly time and that is "free".
I recently split my 3.6 (valve guides) and everything except the ims bearings checked out, but I didn't know that before hand. I chose to put in ARP rod bolts as well, $250 on ebay I think.

This wouldn't hit Henry's radar as he is in the business of going down to the crank - but some DIYers also get good results with pulling the rods without splitting the case. This DIYer probably wouldn't ever do it - but it is a perfectly valid approach. Me, if I'm going to that much effort, I'm just going to split the case and, at a minimum, renew the intermediate shaft sprockets, timing chains, intermediate shaft bearings, snout bearing o-ring, etc. Measure the crank and mains, probably re-use the mains (especially considering the cost and crap quality of current bearing sets), inspect oil pump gears, DFL all bearings. Splitting the case doesn't have to be a super-costly exercise and peace of mind is priceless. On the engines I've built, they get taken to redline every time they're driven without a second thought.

Henry's point remains valid, whichever technique you use to renew the rods - specifically on a 3.2, they are a strongly recommended 'while you are in there' for an otherwise unknown engine. I have absolutely no idea why some are trying to bring valve float into the discussion when we're just trying to address a specific, known weakness in the 3.2 engine that can be mitigated while the engine is down this far. Not every thread has to be a dick measuring contest.

I addressed the issue of replacing rods bolts and bearings without splitting the case in post # 18 but suggested that was rarely a good idea.
Rod bearing fit with respect to engine life is critical. When you measure the rod journals it is not uncommon for the journal to be egg shaped. If so, installing a new bearing on that journal is questionable. Measuring each journal through the whole and getting accurate numbers is difficult if not impossible.

Missed that - thanks for the heads-up. Great info.

The OP has been armed with options and info at this point - may he use his budget and best judgment to arrive at a plan he (and his 3.2) can live with.

Dick measuring.... then why bring the Big Johnson and demand a full smorgasbord case split and dollar burning party on a guy that wanted to only replace head studs? He's been advised of the notoriety of the hardware within his physical reach. Another $1000 and a couple weeks worth of evenings may or may not be in his plans.

Nobody's demanding anything. Back off.

Where can I find these fuel replacement lines from Len?