Engine Rebuild DIY Project: 1976 Carrera 3.0
 

I am starting this thread, largely for my own reference, to track the progress of my rebuild. Hopefully others can learn something from the mistakes I will undoubtedly make, and help me get toward the finish line when I run into snags. I have some experience doing repairs on the various air cooled motors I have had over the years, and I have been through the tear down process several times, but I've never taken on the challenge of ground-up reassembly.

Opportunity has presented itself in the form of a 1976 Carrera 3.0. I have no history whatsoever on the engine, but it turns freely and the oil that came out of it looked clean. It appears as though the cases have been split before, but it's hard to say how long ago or why. My plan is to tear it down to the crank, inspect all of the internals, and do whatever repairs, replacements, and machine work seem necessary.

I'm also fielding ideas on upgrades and fuel delivery. I don't think I'm interested in going to a short stroke or larger displacement, but I suppose I haven't completely ruled it out. I am interested in the possibility of replacing the CIS with carbs.

The orphan engine doesn't yet have a car to call home, but my plan is for a Sunday driver. Little or no track use, and not a daily driver or a show/concourse car.

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As you have figured, these cases are prized by those who want to make short stroke 2.8 or 3.0 or 3.2 motors. But you'd probably have to do a lot of horsetrading to turn that to your advantage, other than trading it for some money and a later 3.0.

Im new to the forum too. I have a 1977 Euro 3.0 Carrera Targa and Im trying to find out what type of engine do I have? The number reads 930/02? The engine chassis reads 6670274. And my VIN number reads: 9117610093. Are you familiar on how to sort what type of engine does the 930/02 should be?

Walt, you're right. I'm interested in a pretty straightforward stock rebuild, at least where the long block is concerned, for my first go round. Maybe this engine has a third life as a short striker, but I don't think now is the time.

This should be an interesting build.

A straight forward rebuild is very respectable. If you found the right car to put it in you could get your money back out of your investment. A 2.7 with a good body and a bad motor would not be to hard to find, and dressing it up like a early carrera would not take a lot of effort.

Are going to increase the compression at all?

IMHO I would go carbs for sure they would help with resale down the road. A newly rebuilt motor documented by this thread would have a lot of people interested, and it would look very cool. Euro CIS would be the other way to go, if you wanted to keep the CIS.

Every 914 / 6 guy wants this one as it will bolt to the 901 and fit in the 914. I hope to be back on the dyno soon to finish up mine.

Enjoy,

The Red Book confirms:

77 Carrera 3.0 targa. There were 646 built from 9117610001 to 9117600646.
The 930/02 is the correct engine code for the Euro 3.0.
The engine VIN is correct too.

I agree that carbs are the more desirable route - we'll see what kind of $$$ it takes to get the long block done, and then see what I have left over. The CIS on the car should be euro since the engine was a euro production only, right? If not, is there a way to check?

Dressing up a mid year or SC roller is exactly what I have in mind. Would love to get one that comes with a trans and a busted motor to tackle next. Engine rebuild comes first though - I don't expect I'll be completing that piece in record time.

You should be able to pick up a decent broken mid year for less cash.

This is mine,http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1393942568.jpg

It is a 77 with a 3.0L taken up to 3.2L with the Max Moritz p&c I believe or JE, not sure because I did not do the build. It still has the CIS.

It is has oil pooling in the #2 cylinder that I'm chasing down, the car very well could have been sitting for a long time so that may be the cause. Compression and leak down are good and the the cylinder walls are in good shape. I'm hoping it is just rings that need to seat a little more or maybe it has too much oil in the reservoir and it is pushing oil into the cylinder when it gets under pressure.

I picked up an euro bumper that I'm going to put on it, and eventually some steel 74 side mirrors.

Of course the top priority is getting it running right. But after that I'm sure I will find another project for it, like carbs or bitz efi. It already is running electromotive, with bitz the car would be a screaming hotrod and easily tuneable for half the money of carbs. But carbs are much more marketable and esthetically much cooler with out a doubt.

Eli - Great car, I hope that the problem turns out to be minor. If not, you can always share the rebuild joy that seems to be contagious here on Pelican!

Carrera - the 3.0 911s before the 1978 model were not imported into the US, so the one described ought to be a Euro car with Euro stuff. Of course, if it was imported and Federalized as a gray market car, who knows. Probably no change there - my Euro 2.7 didn't have any changes made to it in the engine compartment.

But the same case was used in the 3.0 turbos, and those were imported to the US. However, again with engine number, model, and vin lining up, not a US 3.0 turbo case.

Carrera 3.0,

Before you spent time upgrading that engine, you should realize what it is you have got. It is an awesome and fairly rare engine.
The 930/02 is the correct Carrera 3.0 engine. It is more responsive than its younger SC siblings.
Mine is completely stock with CIS and all. It is very responsive compared to my friends 1979 SC.

Keep it, rebuild it and have fun.

Carrera 3.0 reported VIN of x610093.
Charley V reported VINs of x600646 to x610001 for '77 Carrera 3.0s.

Carrera 3.0's VIN does not fall within Charley V's reported range of VINs. Is there a typo in this exchange?

Jesper

My only contact with this motor is the case I used for a short stroke, so I have no personal knowledge of how these run compared with later SCs.

However, on paper there seems no significant difference between these European early 3.0 engines and the later (78-9) motors. Same bore, stroke, CR (within a point, anyway) and cam, and same type of intake. So if you put the same exhausts on them, why would one have some kind of performance advantage over the other.

Isn't the only physical difference the diameter of the #1 main web, and the 6 vs 9 bolt configuration of the crank end? And the 9 bolt 70.4s greater resistance to shaking off its flywheels?

They are very similar, but the Carrera 3.0 uses the lighter 2.7 crank (along with the 6 bolt flywheel, as you mention) which is lighter, making the engine more responsive. The valve timing is also different, I believe.

I am not an expert. All I can say is I love the responsiveness of my Carrera 3.0, even with CIS. It is so much more fun and temperamental compared to an early SC.
BTW, mine has a stock style dansk stainless exhaust.

I'm definitely looking forward to following this build. I plan on doing a rebuild on my carrera 3.0 engine within the next year. (Along with a bare metal resto on the body)

Carrera3.0: I look forward to your completion and account on your Carrera 3.0L engine challenges. Im not a porsche guru (specialist by any means) but everyone I have talked to and everything I have read specifically about the 930/02 engine type (which you have) is they are 1) very special; 2) very expensive; 3) one hell of an engine.

Charlie V: Thank you for your response to my inquiry. I do have a 1977 Euro (RoM) 911 Carrera 3.0L Targa and several people have confirmed what you gave me. The engine type 930/02 is for a Euro 76-77 911 Carrera 3.0L RoW

Thanks for all of the comments. In my experience, these engines are much more responsive, especially in the higher rpm range. I also just like having something that is a unique chapter of the 911 story, and a rare model (especially here in the states).

Maintaining the basic stock configuration is definitely a priority, although carbs are a tempting upgrade due to their marketability, appearance, and simplicity.

As a side note, my engine is actually a 930/12. It is identical to the 930/02 except that it shipped with a sportomatic mated to it. It will definitely be used with a 901 or 915 in its next application.

Carrera 3.0: Where are you doing your engine rebuilding? Im in the Riverside/Palm Springs area.

I am located in Indianapolis, IN. Too bad it isn't a little closer!

Finally got to work over the weekend. The engine is now mounted on a stand and I've removed injection, shroud, ignition, etc. Generally speaking, things are looking good so far. No overly rusty bolts/studs, oil on the thermostat looked very clean, etc.

There is a large chunk out of the alternator housing and the fan/alternator are missing altogether. I'm optimistically thinking that these may be issues for which the car was parked initially. Still wouldn't explain why it was removed from the donor car though.

It is a modest start... Next up will be removal of the rusty exhaust and checking on those pesky head studs: I'm putting the over/under at 4.5 broken.

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Watching with interest!

I too have a Carrera 3.0 engine and have been doing research on modifications for this engine.
From what I can gather there are 3 routes to go down.
1. CIS
2. MFI
3. EFI

CIS is the cheapest by far and you already have it in your engine.
MFI will set you back around $6,000 on top of engine purchase price & standard rebuild items.
EFI will set you back about $8,000 on top of engine purchase price & standard rebuild items.
I would speak to Clewett Engineering re the EFI. They do a PMO ITB EFI setup which should produce around 260hp from the motor.

I personally am looking at the CIS route as its much cheaper for similar bang.

What i have found is this for a CIS.
9.8:1 mahle p's & c's.
webcam cams 21/30
Titanium spring retainers from Aase.
964 turbo oil restrictor.
'D' Ported and polished heads.
Adjusted distributor
SSi heat exchangers
Clewett park plug leads
MSD ignition & coil
This will set you back around 7-8k.
For either MFI or EFI add that 7-8k to the 5-8k for changing from CIS.
So you could be looking at around 20k to go to EFI or MFI with a fully rebuilt motor operating to its full potential. + the engine purchase price if course.

There are a few other things that I can't think of right now.

Basically all this costs much much less than going MFI it EFI and should give around 250hp.
Btw there is a 71T with a 76 carrera 3.0 fitted for sale on eBay atm.

W.

Will - thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm all that interested in going to EFI or MFI, but those are intriguing options. With any of the options you've run through, there are a lot of engine changes being contemplated beyond injection. I'm not sure I want to venture out that far from stock.

Have you ruled out carbs? If so, why?

The yellow '70T is extremely interesting to me. I've actually located a '70T coupe body and am in the process of acquiring it for this engine. I am looking at doing some more extensive body and paint restoration, but I expect to end up with something roughly similar to the car at auction.

No worries,
I have ruled out Carbs due to 3 reasons.
Tuning (ongoing)
Reliability
Fuel consumption

CIS is the most hands off so to speak (from what I can gather) & is also the cheapest to setup.
It looks the ugliest though.

With your stock motor you will probably want to replace the P's & C's while you are in there so it's a really good opportunity to go for higher compression like 9.8:1 or even combine that with a 98mm set so that it is a 3.2s.s. All this costs the same price as replacing the originals with new ones at the original 8.5:1CR. but gives better performance.

The cams, when you get them out may be good & you can keep them for sure. But going to a slightly lumpier cam will again give better performance.

You will just have to crunch the numbers on each part as you inspect it. Repairing the old bits is probably not worth it cost wise.

STAY away from twin plugging. Way too expensive!

Will

EFI. Does not have to cost anywhere near to 8k. There are proven DIY solutions out there. Tbitz comes to mind as the cheapest by using your oem manifold. The DZUG buys have got an awesome itb setup, which is based on megasquirt efi like the tbitz.

I have a tbitz kit sitting on the shelf, but the CIS is doing just fine for now, so why bother.

Beware though, it doesn't take much CIS refurbishing before you get into DIY efi territory.

Jsveb:
Yeah I have seen it can be much cheaper than 8k.
8k is about how much clewett want for their state if the art EFI system. It looks like the ducks nuts and give excellent power. I would love that setup oneday.

I finally have had some time to work on tear down and post some pictures. Everything looks pretty as expected with a whole bunch of broken head studs, and some oil sitting in one cylinder. Having torn into dozens of these engines in my experience, I have to say how pleasantly surprised I am with how easily everything is coming apart. The parts have required very little "encouragement" and I have yet to run into any real problem areas. To the naked eye, everything appears to be in good condition so far, save for a couple broken cooling fins on one of the heads (see picture, hoping this can be repaired).

The P&C's are MAHLE Nikasil, and look to be in excellent condition. This opens the idea of reusing this set up, which is perfect as I am going for a stock build.

Most of the case hardware has been removed, and I'll be finishing the tear down process this weekend. Then it's off to the machine shop! I'm still deciding exactly what I should have done.

I'm about to do the same with a regular ol SC engine. I'm worried about the broken head studs though. How do you get the broken parts out? Love to see some pictures as you go along doing that, thanks.

Someone took good care of that engine. Upgraded hydraulic tensioners, turbo valve covers, pop off valve, and who knows what other gems. I think you got a good one. Good luck with the rebuild!

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Mreid - I'm hoping (read: betting) that you're right. The upgrades were one of the reasons I was willing to take the leap of faith and buy this engine without any history. I still need to crack the crank, and inspect the internals before I'm going to sleep soundly.

PilotFrog - There are a lot of competing opinions on the best way to remove head studs from the engine, but most involve one of the many available stud removal tools and a blow torch. I've seen a hefty set of vice grips work pretty effectively too.

Aside from the fact that it makes shipping a lot easier, I'm inclined to let the machine shop handle this task. I am planning to send the case out anyway, so I think it's best to let the pros handle it.

The case came apart without any issues over the weekend, and everything inside continues to look healthy. There is a small amount of corrosion near one of the mounting holes on the oil pump, but that is the only sign of wear that I've detected.

As you can see, everything is disassembled and ready to go to Ollie's. I spoke with them yesterday, and turnaround is expected to be 8-12 weeks! I'll be having them rebuild the oil pump, clean up the heads and insert new valve guides, and of course replace all of the missing/broken studs on the case.

After much internal debate, I have decided to make the following upgrades, but nothing further. As I've indicated from the beginning, this is to be a Sunday driver, not a race car or a daily commuter. I want aggressive and fun, but without being temperamental or obnoxious.

- S grind cams from WebCams
- PMO Carbs (not sure yet on exactly what setup)
- Aftermarket exhaust: Still looking for ideas here. I am not concerned with any emissions requirements, but I do want to keep noise level reasonable and retain functional heat in the car. Suggestions?

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HI Carrera 3.0

could you check before you send off your case, that some case mod's have been done, also check the exhaust guides and valve spring height's, check the inter-gear Ally gear for wear, check the head studs for the old Dilavar studs, as they need to be re-placed, could you send me you E-mail Add and I will send you over the re-call info on the engine as to what needs to be checked/modified , hope it turns out to look like this, or better

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engine is 2.8 short stroke, 66X95, based on a 3.0lt turbo 1977 case, GT3 oil pump and GT3 inter-gear, Carrera 3.0 cylinders and heads, JE single plug pistons, (USA) SSI heat-exchangers, DC 62 cams, ARP rod bolts, TI retainers, early steel rockers, light flywheel and ally cover, P.M.O. manifolds (long) webber carbs.

regards mike

Thanks Mike, PM sent. I really appreciate the info and hope my engine looks like that soon!

Finally got at least a little bit more work done. Funny how life gets in the way of otherwise perfectly fulfilling hobbies. I got the head/cam assemblies and found some unfortunate news on the passenger side camshaft (some lobe damage). Hopefully this can all be resolved by the good folks at webcams.

I'm planning to go with PMO carbs and s grind cams. Anybody know how to tell if this will create a clearance issue with stock pistons and cylinders?

More photos that show some of my cam issue. No takers on my clearance inquiry?

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Another stupid question: I know that I need to number punch/stamp heads, pistons, and cylinders, and that I need to avoid hitting any mating surfaces. Can anybody advise where it is best to mark each of these parts? Should I also be stamping the rods? They aren't going to the machine shop, so a piece of tape and a sharpie should suffice if stamping isn't advisable.

Rods have numbers on their sides - different numbers for each rod (statistically, because only three digits, so not like a serial number) - so you can keep rod and cap matched, and installed the right way around (cap to main part). Just write those down, although the only reason to keep rods in order is if their varying weights have been used as part of the balancing process. So just write down what goes where if you want. Or use tape.

Heads you can stamp in the middle of the top (valve spring side). The cam carrier doesn't touch the head there, and it stares you in the face when reinstalling. Although I don't think there is any downside to installing heads any old which way -- it is rockers which can potentially benefit from going back onto the cam lobes they are familiar with.

A head is a head is a head, unless you have jiggered with flycutting and cylinder base gaskets differentially to get things to line up - which is not a good way to go long term, though it can work. Best is all parts being of the same dimension.

Cylinders can be stamped on the base part which sticks out and you can see. Do it on the top or bottom. Top might be easier to spot while reassembling.

Pistons can usually be stamped on the crown, about in the middle. Again, you want it where you can see it during reassembly. Otherwise, you could etch a number easily lots of places on the underside. I recently purchased a tiny etcher, powered by one small (AAA?) battery, and its diamond encrusted tip (or is it carbide) works great for small marks. Cost insignificant, too.

Thanks Walt!

Everything has been boxed up and safely shipped to Ollie's. My ego got a nice stroke from both Ollie's and WebCams as they commented on how very rare/special this motor is (A+ customer service - you get what you pay for). They even had to admit that they have no idea whether s grind cams will cause clearance issues with my pistons. Apparently the solution is to just do it and see what happens. Ollie's estimates 8-12 weeks for rebuilding the oil pump and heads, and machining the cases, crank, cams, etc. The waiting game begins! If only I could get my hands on the right car to drop this beast into... I'd have something to fiddle around with for the next few months.

For any DIYers out there thinking about tackling their first engine, I'll note that packing and shipping a case/crank with broken studs is a major PITA. This is especially true if you're like me and don't have lots of packing materials lying around or convenient Fedex pickups rolling up every day. I ended up spending around $90 in boxes and packing material, and just under $300 in freight with FedEx Ground, insured. These are costs to keep in mind.