rebuild for head studs found problem need help
 

when I removed the cam carrier on the drivers side the #3 head had a red X on it (sharpie I think ). this is the same #3 that had a fouled spark plug oil and soot.

here is my problem..i have alusil p&cs.have not pulled them yet. I was going to pull as unit per wayne. if I can not pull them apart how will I know if the rings are good?

the car is 1982 sc 3.0 with 50k miles. so far everything I have taken off looks really good.

what else can cause fouled plugs. I just had the heads re-done. the cylinders look really clean no wear marks. also only had one broke head stud and it was on #3.

could a clogged injector cause fouled plug? I really like to avoid having to buy new p&cs

thanks for the help...carlhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1402871957.jpg

Worn valve guides could have caused plug fouling, as well as a leaky injector. If you still have the spark plug, posting a picture would help determine if it was oil or running rich.

I will take pic of plug next weekend...carl

what is your static compression reading?
Wrong plug?
wrong gap?
week spark?
Did it foul a plug this plug every day? or every 500 miles.
Make sure you are pinning the donkey on the right tail.

Did you do a leakdown before you took it apart? I'm in the camp of belief that you can remove the pistons and cylinders just fine and disassemble/clean all carbon from the pieces, thoroughly inspect and then reassemble and use. Be sure to maintain orientation and match to piston/cylinder/ring. You can't cause any harm that way that wouldn't already exist. This also allows you to confirm the condition of all parts to avoid a potential surprise failure that may be looming in the not so distant future. A cracked ring or cracked piston near the ring can easily allow oil to enter the combustion chamber in enough volume to cause misfire. My $.02.

at the start of this I had the popping they say you get with head studs. I looked and could see 1 broken stud so I pulled the motor to fix studs and chain tensioner. the motor ran well and pulled good until the popping started. I think now the popping was the bad plug as I only found one broken stud. I sent out the heads for rebuild.

I did not do a leak down test or compression test. I thought I was just pulling it down for broken head studs. when I removed the cam Carrier on the 1-2-3 side number 3 head had a big red x on the head. ( not good thing to see ). next thing I did was pull the spark plug it was fouled. black hard stuff not really oily or sutty just black. the first thing I thought was rings. now I am not sure. I find out it could be a number of things.

not sure how to move forward. I can leave 1,2,4,5&6 p and c together and pull #3 apart to check the rings. if they are good put them back togather and use them. the motor had 48k miles on the clock. am I on the right path?

I tried to take a pic. of the plug not to good. also I took pic. of the cylinders and piston.
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I would pull all pistons and cylinders, disassemble, thoroughly clean/de-carbon all parts and inspect. Failure to do so means trusting rather than verifying; not a gamble I would take for all the work and time involved in getting to this point.

From your photo's it looks like you are a good candidate for a top end refresh. I'd do what Lapkritis says and clean/inspect the pistons and cylinders. I bet you will be able to re-use them just fine.

-Andy

At only 50K mileage, the P&C's are probably in spec. You should carefully inspect the top sealing surface on the cylinder that had the popping due to the broken stud to make sure there is no damage. The Alusil cylinders can be reconditioned to ensure the rings seat properly. PM me for details.

so what everyone is saying is to disassemble clean and put back. OK. do I mark the location of all the ring gape and make sure they are the same going back? keep piston and cylinders in same location? if everything checks out good put them back and move on.

I had my heads re -built, they are in new shape. they took .005 inches off the heads. I think the shims I have for the cylinders is .025 ( I will have to check on that ).

what do I clean everything with? I will take pic. of piston and rings as I go and post them.

I have read everything here on these pistons and cylinders. there seems to be two camps. one say throw them out, one say you can re-ring and be good. well for someone like me it is confusing . if I can clean and re-use I am good with that.

because of health I can work on this in spells. I have put off pulling p&c until I felt I had a good direction to go. what you are saying makes sence to me. I really thank you all for all your help. this site has been so much help on my car so far....


this my baby.

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Rings will wonder. Mark and put back, hope for the best.

I pulled cylinders and pistons. I checked the top and middle land clearance. .004 inch will go but .005 would not on 1,2,3 pistons. I will pull other side next week.

the lands on the top of the cylinder and the case both look good. no broken rings. the only markings on the cylinders are what you see in the pictures.

looking at the book the rings are not in the best location. can i change that? I marked where each gap is on the piston.

I guess my next step is to take rings off or do I keep them on and just clean them? what should clean them with?

all the pic. are of the #3 set the one that had the fouled plug.


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I don't think it will matter if you rotate the rings. If you want to be anal about it, leave the rings in the same rotation. If two gaps are close together rotate the second ring away from the gap in the top ring and call it good. Those pistons are not to dirty. You could just clean with a solvent like paint thinner. Maybe brush off the carbon with a wire brush. Be careful not to scratch the sides of the pistons too much with the brush. I have a friend with an ultrasonic cleaner tank that does a good job cleaning pistons, so that might be an option. Keep the rings organized so you can put them back in the same spots. You are going to have no problems with this set.

You could have the heads done (new valve guides) or just put in the new lower headstuds and call it a day.

-Andy

I Did get the heads re-done. new valve guides, new exhaust valves. everything cleaned and checked.

do I just clean cylinders with soap and water ? cotton towel?

so when I replace the head studs I am ready to put it all back . do I oil the rings only or put some in the cylinders as well? also do you break it in as if it had new rings? anything special to do or just treat it as a normal build? my heads were cut .005 inches is that going to change anything? .005 seems like so little.

THANKS YOU TO EVERYONE!!! this forum is great. carl

I see progress! I have access to one of those ultra sonic cleaners if needed.

thanks ethan. nice to see you here. yes hope to get everything cleaned this weekend. maybe next week replace head studs and start putting it back together...carl

Putting the rings into the grooves they came from makes sense to me. But don't get too worried about where the gaps were.

With the oil rings which have a gap just like the other, thinner, rings, I put the gap to the very top (as the engine sits in the car. I space the 1st and 2d rings out so their gaps are by the wrist pin, of a bit below, and on opposite sides. Doesn't matter. The rings are going to rotate some over time anyway. But you have given combustion chamber air, and crank case oil, the most tortuous path to get where you don't want them to start with.

Those cylinders look just great as they are, so I'd just clean with paper towel to remove the old oil. I am in the habit of applying a very thin coat of Marvel Mystery Oil on the cylinders before putting things back in. You can coat the entire surface with just a couple of drops. I use my fingers for this so there is no excess left, and very little if any runs down onto whatever surface you set your heads on in preparation for putting them back on the engine.

I have also run some of this light oil in with the rings, but recently saw advice which suggested not doing that. You can probably find it using the search function here, and decide which way to go. I don't think I have ever had a ring seal issue, but that doesn't mean that perhaps they would have sealed sooner or better had I not oiled them.

Do you have Wayne Dempsey's book on rebuilding 911 engines? You should have it, and not just because it is courtesy of Wayne that we have this great forum. It is really good for the details of normal engine assembly.

thanks walt, I have worried a lot about this . I have the book. it said to remove p&cs as set. I thought I had a broke ring because of the fouled plug. I have all pistons pulled and everything looks good.

I am working at pulling head studs. while I am doing that I am also working on p&cs. your advice makes sense to me. can I use brake cleaner on the out side on the cylinders? and what about the carbon on the top of the pistons?

have you re-used these p&cs before?

No break-in needed with the old rings. Lubricate as you like. Less lub is only to break in new rings. Clean with anything you like, simple green, brake cleaner, acetone, gasoline, etc.

-Andy

andy, thank you for your time. I am excited about getting started putting it back together. I drove it for a year before I pulled it apart. I can not wait to drive it again.

I still need to send out the trany. when I get it driving I can work on the little things.

making progress measured everything and looks good. a good cleaning and they will be ready to go back. I am still painting motor tin and other parts.

next step is to pull bottom head studs and install new ones. clean more on block and then start putting it all back.

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I am going to keep posting my build here hope on one minds. my son in Houston keeps up with my build here.....carl

Carl, I am living in a parallel universe to you. I just bought an 82 SC with 183k miles, and the engine was already removed and disassembled to the same extent as yours to address broken studs....I bought it as something of a kit. I am also wondering about my Alusil cylinders, wondering if I can re-ring or need to do something more substantive. My Alusils have more marks in them than yours and one was scratched as a result of poor packing when the car was ready to be moved. I need a qualified person to give me an opinion. In the meantime, please keep sharing your experience. Best wishes for a quiet and smoke free engine, John in CT.

Looking good. Keep the pictures coming!

You're changing all the studs, right? Replace them with steel parts, not Dilavar.

The Cap'n

yes I am replacing all the bottom head studs with steel. I just got MAP gas for heating things up. next week I should get my snap on stud remover.

I spent today cleaning up the pistons. the carbon was tough. I used my dermal tool with a little cup wire wheel. it worked great. I only bought one. it will take 2 or 3 to get the job done. I polished the tops they look good. I will post pic next week.

once I get the studs replaced I can start building it back. while I wait I am sandblasting and painting.

john in CT. how are you doing on your build? a lot of people believe you can re-ring. do a search. there is a place you can send them and they will re-work them. I will try to find the link and post it. my motor only had 50k miles so I pulled them apart measured them and will put them back as they were.

john in CT. look here. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/137346-re-ring-alusils.html

hope this helps....carl

Only the lower studs? Why?

The Cap'n

New rings are cheap. Why not just replace them. Old ones have 50k miles on them. New ones will last 50k miles longer. Peace of mind in my opinion.

Chris

Concur on replacing with new rings...
Are your upper studs already steel?

upper studs are steel and in good shape.

I thought I might get the old rings to seat better. it is my understanding that re-ringing is a crap shoot. everything checks out good.....carl

I recently discoved the same situation in my '87; after tearing down the engine to replace broken (lower) studs, I find the uppers are steel and look nearly new...does anyone know if this was a common thing to do, that is, replace only the upper head studs with steel? :confused:

The SC and 3.2 engines were built at the factory with steel studs for the uppers and Dilivar for the lowers.

Most high mileage SC and 3.2 engines have one or more broken lower studs while the steel uppers are fine.

That makes absolutely no sense to me, that they'd come from the factory with steel on top and Dilivar on the lowers...i figured they'd be equipped with Dilivar all around. Thank God for small favors.

The turbos and 3.6 have dilivars all around.
Bruce

Well, I'll be...

Thanks, Bruce.

my understanding is that the expansion rate is closer to what the cylinder and heads expand at. although it seems that they would use the same on top and bottom.

my top are steel and looking good. bottom look good but had one broke one. I am replacing them with factory steel ones.

I started this rebuild just to fix head studs and chain tensioners. now I have new heads, cleaned and painted stuff. it just goes on and on.

next week put p&cs together.

oh.... I cleaned the carbon off the pistons with a dremil tool and a little wire cup wheel ( 3 bucks) some brake cleaner . it worked great. took some time but not hard at all. I will post pic. this weekend.....carl

Thanks, Carl...good stuff.

I have the same situation here, good steel on top and broken Dilivar (6) on the lowers. Thus far though, everything, save the Dilivar studs, looks pristine.

I do have some carbon to remove from the piston tops, do you have any more details on the "wire cup"?

Don't apply any wire to the pistons. That removes metal. Soak in a bucket of carb cleaner, then rinse. Low pressure glass beading is also an option.

Then inspect. If ring side clearances, pin and bores are good, proceed with assembly. If you replace the rings, prep the cylinders more thoroughly (remove any ridge from the cyl. top, prep cyl. with Scotchbrite pad - see rering threads).

Sherwood

Thanks, Sherwood...fears of applying metal wire wheel to the piston tops was the reason for my question...my fear was more of leaving behind metal, from the wheel but, your point is valid and appreciated.

If the carburetor cleaner soak doesn't quite dissolve the deposits, what would you recommend? Scotch Brite pad?

Scotch Brite too. Fresh carb cleaner is usually a potent carbon softener. Also glass bead blast as I suggested, but minimal exposure to the ring lands.

Sherwood