You also need to confirm the clearances are to spec before putting them together the same way they came apart.... unless you D&A a just rebuilt engine.

Thus, here is my simplified classification of labor when rebuilding anything:
a) Disassembly and organization
b) Cleaning
c) Inspection (visual and measurement)
d) Reassembly

Skipping steps or minimizing the importance of one over another decreases the odds of a successful build.

MHO,
Sherwood

This is where I am now and cannot for the life of me figure how to get this thing off. Am I missing some hidden bolt? Can anyone make any suggestions?

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Are you saying the pressure plate is stuck or that you just can't get it past the trans studs?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The pressure plate will not budge. I have no idea what to do to get it off.

If all 9 perimiter bolts have been removed, it should come off. Hit it with a hammer, the PP and FW might have gotten stuck to the clutch disk.

The pressure plate bolts attach the timing ring gear and the pressure plate onto the flywheel. The clutch disc is between. Sounds like stiction is holding the parts together. Using a dead blow hammer or equivalent, remove the timing ring gear from the pressure plate. The rest should fall off.

If this is the first time doing this, are you using any reference materials or are you "winging it"? The forum is great, but you can save time by having source materials at your workbench while you wait for a response from this forum.

Suggest downloading the parts manual so you can see the relationship between the various engine components.
Porsche Original Parts Catalogue - Parts and Diagnostic Information - Porsche Service - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

Thanks Sherwood, I've had that file downloaded in my desktop computer for a number of years. In addition to this forum and the Internet my reference materials are the Bentley manual and Wayne's engine rebuild book. Both have been extremely valuable pieces of material and I dont think I would have gotten this far without them. The downside to those books is they really don't talk about how to overcome challenges which make this forum such an invaluable resource. These threads are all about the experiences of guys stories of how they got through a set back or how they figured out a way to make it work.

The tedious task continues...

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Cool build. I would also split the case and do the rebuild.

What does it cost for twin plugging the heads?

I love your project! I wish I had time to do the same for my '87 3.2.

What is a ballpark estimate of paying a shop to do a rebuild of a 3.2 vs upgrading to a 3.4? Thanks.

ChrisP, I decided against splitting the case because I really haven't seen a need for it. If as I get the heads off I find there is an unavoidable problem that I need to address then I may have no choice.

maclaren, I did look into having a shop do a rebuild for me. The estimate was $10-12k depending on what I ultimately decided on exhaust and intake mods like Extrude Hone. I only have so much to spend and with the chassis at the body shop I decided it was time for me to pony up and join the club of tear down and reassembly. At least to my meager skills what I'm doing is challenging enough but as I get more experience and have more time I will improve and take on other mechanical challenges with these cars.

Getting the left cam tower off has been frustrating to say the least, Porsche does such a great job in putting these cars together I find the hardest part to any project I take on with my car is taking the damn thing apart. I'm almost there, I have yet to get the #3 rocker arm out on the exhaust side. I have been plugging away at it on and off periodically over the last couple of days. Hitting with brake clean and soaking it with PB Blaster to try and loosen it. The bolt is so tight I'm afraid of rounding the head and then not being able to do anything. The plan is one more day of soaking and then go at it hard with heat. Hopefully that will be enough to finesse it out, then I can get the heads off to the machine shop.

So in the meantime I decided to go after the injectors so I could send them out for reconditioning

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Michael: Thanks for answering my question. My '87 Carrera coupe runs strong, but is starting to burn a bit of oil and smoke a little at 130k. I'll keep saving for the rebuild. I look forward to following the progress on your project. :) Cheers. -- Richard

Great job so far, Michael. I considered selling my car in the search for more power (e.g. GT3) then changed my mind to go for a performance rebuild this winter. My engine is not smoking or lacking in power, I just want more to keep up on the track. I will be doing it myself using new Mahle 10.3:1 Euro Ps&Cs, 993 or 964 cams, keeping Motronic, single plug. Goal is 240hp with custom chip and headers. Hopefully, I can do this for < $10k, with larger valves, some head work, stiffer springs and ARP rod bolts. I will be splitting the case to replace the bearings, balance the rods etc. You're that far, you should re-consider. You don't want to do it twice, down the road.

Nice! Really hoping to get to my 3.2l build one of these days. I cannot handle the leaks anymore!

I can't tell you how much much I've considered and reconsidered and then reconsidered this. I've thought about it so much I've sat there in front of my engine on the stand and just stared at it trying to decide if I want to take that plunge. I'm already nervous enough about putting it back together wrong.

I've been speaking with the machine shop and the conversation led to talking about springs. So earlier this week I contacted EBS Racing and got a quote for racing springs, retainers, seats and the new style ARP fasterners with the trick little allen head tips for the exhaust manifold (that's got to be one of the coolest inventions ever). I understand them to be stiffer springs, but how much stiffer? What would the benefits be of having them installed? I'm not opposed to spending the extra if there is real benefit or value in doing the upgrade.

Speaking of upgrade, I think it's time I make a decision on which exhaust to go with. The heads will be back from the machine shop and the injectors will be back and then it will be time to get everything back together. I've been thinking that I want an exhaust that will compliment the 964 cams and machine work that is being done so in all honesty the Rarelyl8 headers in my mind are the most logical choice. But it's gets cold in Mar/Apr and Oct/Nov at Summit Point and I'm not willing to compromise on having heat so going with SSIs make the most sense. I'm well aware that Brian builds a pipe with heat but from the various pics I've seen in the forum the heater boxes look very small and most of the comments have indicated the fit & finish is not that great. Truth be told, I really want the Rarelyl8 headers but if it means not having adequate heat, then they're not for me. Can anyone or does anyone have any experiences they can share about the heat exchangers with the Rarelyl8 headers? Does it seem like they produce enough heat? Do the heater boxes fit tight on the header pipes? The early version heater boxes appeared to have large gaps and fit very loosely. After having had some use, have the heater boxes shaken loose and rattle a lot like a failing catalytic converter? If I were top go with SSIs, how hard is back dating the heat? It looks like I need to add some hosing and cut another hole in the engine tin. Is that not correct?

Thanks for all the comments and encouragement, if it wasn't for this board, I very seriously doubt I would have gotten as far as I have. I really do appreciate all the guidance I've received over the years.

Exhaust.........
 

When I built the 3.3SS engine for my SC, I used the 964 cams, Carrera heads and SSI exhausts. So far, I haven't noticed any falling off of power at higher rpms. I have the XDi ignition interrupter set at 7500 rpms but haven't pushed the engine that high yet. I also did the heat backdate and find that the car makes plenty of heat without the blower motor. I haven't had my engine on a dyno yet, but it is obviously making a good bit more hp than before. Good luck!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1406976795.jpg

The heat backing is quite easy. The best hose to use is the 2.5" scent: SCEET AIRCRAFT DUCTING from Aircraft Spruce

If you are going this way with the SSIs, you'll need to change the crossover oil line.

Not sure anyone can notice a loss of power that was never potentially there in the first place unless it was….. there. Just saying.

Sherwood

My Point...........
 

The point I was making was that the SSI exhausts will work well with the 964 cams. What was your point? Not sure you know what you are talking about.... just saying!
(I hate that expression!).

You said: "......So far, I haven't noticed any falling off of power at higher rpms"......

My point was that one shouldn't miss the extra power if the installed components aren't optimized/optimal in the first place. We all experience the limitations of the engine we have. Unless your engine previously produced more power with the same configuration, why would you miss a reduced amount that was never produced?

By way of explanation...............
 

When I rebuilt my engine I added displacement, compression, different cams, larger port heads and modified the CIS system. Even with all of this, the SSI exhausts (which were on the otherwise stock 3.0 SC engine) still flow well enough to let the new engine configuration make increased power at higher (7,000) rpms. If the exhaust capacity was restricted, it would not do so. While an engine might make a marginal amount of more top end hp with larger diameter header type exhausts, they would take away from the bottom end and mid range torque levels. Engines are always a compromise, so you have to decide which is more important to you, good street driving characteristics or 5 extra horsepower at redline.

Size matters
 

Dear Sirs,

yes right and there is a clear tendency of thinking bigger is better.

This is not the case - you can see the majority of exhaust tubing being oversized.

A lot of the people doing this systems are reasonable welders but far away of being exhaust experts or constructors.

The Porsche engines like relatively small tubes - as an example a 45x1 mm tube is good for 400 plus hp out of a full spec 3,5 l RSR style race engine with 50 mm flat slides.

Max power is at 8.600 rpm and shifting is at 8.800 to 9.000.

So a bigger tube is not automatically making more peak power - it can also mean loosing everywhere.

Same with the ports - work at the seat / bowl area but do not open it up too much.

Ports also tend being too big not being too small !

Best reg.

Dirk

The configuration of Porsche's RSR track engine isn't necessarily a recipe for street-based engines, even uber-modified versions.

Not that PAG makes all the right calls, but one could take hints from the components they use (exhaust-wise specifically) in their production engines, some of which are pretty "uber". It appears the mods Fred made (displacement, compression increase, cams, etc.) would have provided a hefty boost to mid-range torque.

BTW, 45mm = ~1.77". Not sure if that dimension is tube ID or OD. If OD (as is typically used), the tube ID is typically 1-5/8" (41.27mm). By comparison, SSI tube OD/ID is 1.5"/1.375" respectively, not ideal for a 3.3 l engine according to "those in the know" and the more knowledgeable people here. I'm probably splitting hairs, but unless there are empirical test results, how does one know "my stuff" is not leaving untapped power on the table just because I can't feel the power loss?

Not to beat a dead horse, but unless there's a reference level, how does one feel a lack of e.g. +10-15 ft.lbs torque?

Sherwood

Living in the forest of tubing....
 

Dear sherwood,

the comparison was just to make clear what gas flow volume is taking its way through a relatively small tube without restricting and causing the loss of power and torque.

And this is a strong argument to be considered when choosing from all systems available, or getting something build custom made.

A smaller system with smaller diameter is generating more velocity and a stronger pulse at the joining spots.

Looking at what Porsche did on street and race cars is telling exactly the same story.

We are working on our dyno every day and see evidently what happens.

Very often we change systems or adapt headers that we fabricate to be fitted on existing mufflers / silencers and in a lot of cases we use smaller tubes, if necessary, and produce more power and torque on a wider range.

At the end of the day the surface size under the power and / or torque curves makes the fast engine; whether it is a street or a race engine.

I was writing the tube diameter is 45x1 mm so the inner diameter is 43 mm !

Remaining with best regards

Dirk

de-de.facebook.com/edelweissmotorsport

Dirk,
i actually agree with you, but tube size (small vs large) is relative, thus my initial response way back in #59.

Sherwood

The sound of speed
 

Dear Sherwood,

I went back to # 59 but could find no connection, anyhow:

" all is relative even mathematics " ( Albert Einstein )

Best reg.

Dirk

de-de.facebook.com/edelweissmotorsport

This is unbelievably interesting. I'd never thought I would get so hung up in caring about what size tubing for an exhaust manifold I should be concerned about. But in actuality, I'm finding this stuff to be so interesting. I'm probably over thinking this because I'm not building a competition engine but it is really important to me to get this right so if it takes me a little longer to decide what is best for me, for my project and what I'll be doing with it, then it takes little longer. So I'd like to ask for all of your opinion, for a street engine that will see 5 maybe 6 DE weekends a season, what would you choose for exhaust (headers & muffler) w/out giving up heat?

Michael,
The rebuild of my 3.2 to 3.4 (Mahle P+C's) with 964 cams and extrude honed manifold is nearing completion and I am going with SSI's as heat is critical to me. I did speak with Brian at Rarly8 and given that my goal is midrange torque and his headers w/ heat have short length primaries, he told me that this would not be ideal for my intent. Thus my builder advised me to go with the SSI's. Project to be completed soon with dyno data to follow.
Peter

Thanks Peter, I appreciate the info. I think I know which way I'm going with regards to "air out".

Since the heads are at the machine shop I wanted to do some reading up on what happens and what they do, just get some basic general information. So I pull open Wayne's rebuild book. I was reading camshafts and since my 964 cams had just come back from Elgin cams my interest was fairly peaked. Then the book started talking about the rockers and they should always be hardened and polished during a rebuild. I didn't think they needed to be redone as well especially sice when I took them out they were in next to perfect condition. How important is it to have them done? During the disassembly both the Bentley manual and Wayne's rebuild discuss the importance of marking the location as to which the rockers were removed from and reinstalling in the same location. If I sent them off to a machinist, how do I make sure they get put back in the same place so they are installed in the same location? If I installed them the way they are without any machining, what do I risk?

Mike,
I'm following your build with keen interest as I'm about to embark on rebuild, trying to make decision between Euro 3.2 or 3.4. I think you decided not to split the case, IIRC, did you do a leakdown before you started? I'm thinking I should get a base reading as I have a leakdown tester.

I have to admit I did not do a leakdown test. I do know that I was experiencing zero engine problems prior to me tearing into this thing. What started out as simply pulling it out so I could save a little money because the body shop needed it out to fix some impact damage I had when I was hit coming out of T9 at Summit Main last season to some basic cleaning to where I am now. This has been quite the experience. There have been times that makes me doubt myself in being able to get it back together but at the same time I used to think that my meager tech skills would never get to where I am right now. It's a learning process and I'm trying to enjoy the ride because i think it will make me that much better when I get back to the track. The way I see it, this experience will give me a much better understanding of how things work in my car's engine therefore I will know how to apply that to my driving.

Can anyone comment on this? If I'm going to do this, now is the time. I was under the impression that they just went back in all I had to do was make sure they went back in the same spot. Is that not the case?

Getting to this point has been slowed to say the least. The bolts for the rocker arms were buttass tight and I kept thinking that I was going to round off one of the 5mm heads and I would totally in the toilet as far as getting it out.
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But with a little but of patience, some penetrating oil & heat and talking real nice to them I was able to get them all out with no damage.
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Now it was on to getting the cam towers off
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Being very careful in keeping everything together just the way it was originally put together

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I've been using both the Bentley manual and Wayne's book as my guides and working the two together. On one side I took the cam tower off first and then the heads as suggested by the Bentley manual. On the other side I took the cam tower and heads off at the same time and then separated the two on the bench. I liked doing it that way better. If I ever have to do it again I'll have to remember to loosen the nuts and bolts first before removing the two together, it was a pain in the ass getting them loose with the heads wanting to slide around on the bench top when torque was put to the bolts.

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Now the heads have already been sent to the machine shop, the cams have already returned from Mr. Elgin being regroup and polished. As soon as I gets the heads back and the fuel injectors back I can pretty much get started on putting everything back together. Although I do see more cleaning in my future.

Did you decide to get your rockers rebushed and polished? It's not very expensive. The theory behind keeping the rockers in the same place has to do with the wearing of the cam and the rocker pad together over the last 25 years. Since you had the cam reground, that's now no longer relevant but you do want the rockers to be as flat as possible to make new wear patterns with your "new" cam. Check the bushes too, they will probably show some wear. The rocker shafts will also show some wear and can also be polished just like the rocker pads. Definitely consider the RSR rocker seals when reassembling the cam rack. These can develop annoying leaks for sure! They slip into the little grooves on the rocker with a little persuasion. Just make sure they don't invert as you are sliding them on.
Keep trucking... You're doing great so far!!!
Btw... If you want those aluminum parts to look new, and you don't want to buy an air compressor, drop them off at a powder coating or metal shop and ask for them to be bead blasted. All the elbow grease, mineral spirits and simple green in the world, will never get the parts to look like they will after bead blasting. And it's not that expensive.

Looking good, giving me inspiration to tear into mine, take lots of pics and keep posting. What cam grind are you going with? What's the approx estimated cost with cams and heads being sourced out?

Thanks for the encouragement DSPTurtle, like I said for a 1st timer, it's a little overwhelming. I did find a shop in my area that has the type of cleaning equipment and solution that I have been looking for. Gunther's Machine & Speed Shop in Walkersville MD is cleaning them for me. I'm particularly interested in the cam towers as I spent the most time. He did tell me that he wasn't sure how much cleaner they would get since they were already fairly clean. I can't wait to see them. I did decide to send the rockers in for polishing. I figure if I've gone this far I should skimp on something like this. And yes I did think, if I'm replacing the cam why am I worried about making sure they go back in the same spot, but what do I know.

jager911, the cam I'm installing is a stock 964 cam. I wanted to stay mild as my plan was to not replace the pistons and I was concerned about having valve clearance issues. A stock profile allowed me to not have to worry about those issues. I did tell the machinist what I was doing so he knew what my goals were and would know what to do to match everything up.

Here's what the inside of the cylinders look like

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That's #3 cylinder & this is #2

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All six cylinders are pretty much identical to one another so I think for the most part my engine is very healthy. Other than having the piston tips bead blasted, is there any way the carbon can be cleaned off the piston tops.

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I really don't want to remove the cylinders if I don't have to.

Any recommendation? I have to open the engine because it have the exhaust valves blowout

now the engine is open what I can do to get more HP from it.. what I need to change or what to do some help Im not doing the job is a mechanic but I don't want he told me something to get more money ... I need the more efficient upgrade to get the more HP possible without spend a lot $$$

thanks for the help

Always interesting to hear of 3.2 owners searching for more power. I had mine rebuilt with similar aims a few years ago. My recipe was euro Ps&Cs, supercup cams and SSIs plus the usual rod bolts, race valve springs, Ti retainers etc and a custom SW chip. I saw 260fwhp, but never saw more than about 220lbft of tq. Fast forward a few years and I decided to put a 964 plastic intake with working resonance flap, hot film maf and 1 5/8 headers on. Once that was live mapped on the dyno I am at 283fwhp and 250lbft. Getting this to work was neither inexpensive nor trivial, but it is now a strong engine that pulls much harder in the mid to upper ranges. I am also running an aluminium pressure plate and 930S spring centred clutch which together with the cams makes this engine much more akin to the early, revvy engines in character. Ignoring the dyno numbers (notoriously unreliable), the change in character and the seat of the pants difference certainly do make it all worthwhile.

What I have learned, is that changing just one thing (say exhaust) makes little difference. To make a real difference in hp/tq, you kind of have to go through the whole system and change everything to step up to the next level.