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-   -   What the "L", Supertec 2.8 (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/863538-what-l-supertec-2-8-a.html)

PFM 05-14-2015 07:40 PM

Henry,

We may not always see eye to eye but I must salute the obvious first class nature of your builds! The motors you and your team put together look to be beyond first class.

Best regards,

PFM

Henry Schmidt 05-16-2015 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFM (Post 8623631)
Henry,

We may not always see eye to eye but I must salute the obvious first class nature of your builds! The motors you and your team put together look to be beyond first class.

Best regards,

PFM

I'm not sure who you are so I can't comment on "we may not see eye to eye" but thank you for the kind words. We take a great deal of pride in what we do, so comments like yours mean a lot.

daepp 05-16-2015 03:10 PM

I'm sure this is obvious to others, but why does that case and 4/5 bearing mod only done to that bearing and not all of them?

And, as always, stunning work there Henry - the marriage of art and engineering!

Henry Schmidt 05-16-2015 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daepp (Post 8625764)
I'm sure this is obvious to others, but why does that case and 4/5 bearing mod only done to that bearing and not all of them?

And, as always, stunning work there Henry - the marriage of art and engineering!

The crank ordinarily fills from each end (#1 and #8 main bearing) making the number 2 and 5 rod bearings the last to get oil. Feeding the crank oil from the middle is a way to increase the oil available to rods number 2 and 5. This is more about flow than pressure.
In the past this modification was only performed on race engines but since we do this work in house it seemed reasonable to do it to every engine we build.

jm993rs 05-17-2015 12:27 AM

Uhhhhhhh this job is good and all is very beautiful !!

Think you for share........... :eek::eek::eek:

KTL 05-18-2015 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 8618049)
When working with an after market spring all you really need to know is total valve lift and spring pressures. Porsche is notorious for running very low spring pressure to reduce parasitic loss and wear. The point of an after market spring is to reduce valve float at high RPM.
As long as your valve lift is less than Eibach's published pressure @ full lift number and you can live with those numbers, you're good to go.
If you desire higher full lift (over the nose) pressure then calculating spring height becomes an more challenging endeavor.
When we first encountered these springs we were skeptical so we invested time and resources into testing the validity of Eibach's claimed number. At this point we are satisfied that they (Eibach) did their homework.
Of course for all of you "engineer types" that struggle with believing an "old dog" you are more than welcome to do your own homework.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I figured since the 120/104 has a lift less than the the max lift Eibach states for the given installed height, I should be OK like you said. I'm not planning on going over 8000 unless I miss an upshift and zing the revs a bit. If I select the wrong gear altogether? Well that's a different story....... :p

Also appreciate you doing the legwork to test the springs. Given what other hi po 911 springs & retainers are sold for, it's really easy to question the Eibachs seeming to be too good to be true.

daepp 05-18-2015 01:24 PM

Somebody's gonna get a mighty fine sports car when all this comes together. If possible, ask him to share one he puts that beautiful motor into the SWT!

Henry Schmidt 05-19-2015 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daepp (Post 8628084)
Somebody's gonna get a mighty fine sports car when all this comes together. If possible, ask him to share one he puts that beautiful motor into the SWT!

Thanks Dave, how's your little Porsche running?

This engine is being shipped to KS. so I'll have no control over the install but I'll ask for pictures.

daepp 05-19-2015 11:36 AM

Funny you should ask.

My father never had a Porsche, but he "heard" they broke down a lot and suggested I stay away. My brother owned a 912 after working as a VW engine rebuilder in the early 70's. He told me to stay away from 911's as they required special tools (true) and would cost a fortune to maintain.

To answer your question, it just runs and runs. I drive it at least once a week if not more, it never fails to start and it never has any issues taking me down the freeway at 80 or a back road with plenty of punch. Between Porsche's engineering, the MFI (no carbs to adjust) and your rebuild I am always amazed that a car this old can be every bit as reliable as my boring 21st Century Toyota.

Of course, that doesn't keep me from dreaming about owning a coupe with an engine like that SS 2.8!!

Henry Schmidt 05-19-2015 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daepp (Post 8629414)
Of course, that doesn't keep me from dreaming about owning a coupe with an engine like that SS 2.8!!

A 2.8 SS like this?
Just remember Dave, we can build you what you want "no matter how much it costs". SmileWavy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432065386.jpg

simsalabim 05-19-2015 02:04 PM

Henry,

You should develop and market a "keyboard drool catcher" so that folks can be better prepared for your online builds ... :eek:

Thanks for sharing and continuing to do the nameplate proud !

Henry Schmidt 05-24-2015 08:34 AM

Like this?
Order yours now while supplies last.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432485265.jpg

atcjorg 05-24-2015 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 8635490)
Like this?
Order yours now while supplies last.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432485265.jpg

i'll need 2 please.

rvanderpyl 05-25-2015 06:41 AM

Although that is a gorgeous engine, I am surprised that given the current state of early 911 prices, that someone would take a number matching engine, and have this done to it. Seems that it would actually devalue the car. Why not take a later engine and do this to it, keeping the original stock? As always, it is the owners choice, but it doesn't really seem there is any value to using the original crankcase in this way.

In any case, if I could afford it, I would put that engine in the middle of my living room as a piece of art.

Henry Schmidt 05-25-2015 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvanderpyl (Post 8636463)
Although that is a gorgeous engine, I am surprised that given the current state of early 911 prices, that someone would take a number matching engine, and have this done to it. Seems that it would actually devalue the car. Why not take a later engine and do this to it, keeping the original stock? As always, it is the owners choice, but it doesn't really seem there is any value to using the original crankcase in this way.

In any case, if I could afford it, I would put that engine in the middle of my living room as a piece of art.

The "value" of a car is based on the criteria placed on it by the owner. Build what you want and enjoy it. If you're building a car to suit the requirements of some arbitrary standard set by "experts" I think you should "step away from the vehicle". Built it the way you want and drive it. ENJOY.

Harry998R 05-25-2015 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 8636544)
The "value" of a car is based on the criteria placed on it by the owner. Build what you want and enjoy it. If you're building a car to suit the requirements of some arbitrary standard set by "experts" I think you should "step away from the vehicle". Built it the way you want and drive it. ENJOY.

Well said Henry!

Cheers,

Harry.

daepp 05-26-2015 11:16 AM

As for me, while my car is "all stock" on the outside, inside (the engine) Henry made all kinds of mods. New higher compression pistons, case mods for lubrication, more aggressive cams, and additional cooling, all using the stock, numbers-matching magnesium case. And if I wasn't forthcoming about it, no one would be the wiser.

This lets me have more fun with a stock, survivor car without the guilt that comes from destroying it (like so many did in the 80's - 90's). And if I could afford a 2.8SS, and if my 44 year old case could take it, I do it in a heartbeat!!!

My $.02 anyways!

nvr2mny 07-20-2015 08:24 PM

Henry, any updates on this build? More pics please!

Henry Schmidt 07-21-2015 06:55 AM

Strangely enough, this build is back in front of the line.
Today we start fitting the Amber shroud kit. This sweet kit is coming from 911 Vintage Parts 760-731-4911
info@911vintageparts.com


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437490448.jpg

TurboKraft 07-21-2015 12:54 PM

Very nice, Henry!

SWS911 07-24-2015 09:23 PM

Henry, With all the mods you did to the case why did you stick with the old IMS rather than update for the bearing one. Measuring the end play on that oldie looks cool though as does the cover.

MTemp 07-25-2015 12:06 AM

Henry, instructive thread on a great engine as others have said.

One question if I may. It looks in the early photos as if you've not installed the crankcase wire mesh screens. I assume this is deliberate (or they went in and the photos were just a mock up), and I'd like to know your reasoning for leaving them out. Is this something you do on all your rebuilds?

I have only rebuilt 2 911 engines, both stock, so I am a novice at best, and as a confession I noted the screen absence because I boxed up the last case and then spotted the screens on the bench, so had to reopen, clean, dismantle, fit, rebuild, reseal ...... Oops

Mick

Henry Schmidt 07-25-2015 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWS911 (Post 8725317)
Henry, With all the mods you did to the case why did you stick with the old IMS rather than update for the bearing one. Measuring the end play on that oldie looks cool though as does the cover.

No real benefit to the update bearing.There are shims used for adjusting the end play and they were not availble for many years. We now manufacture a shim assortment making end play adjustment easy.
Shim assortments are available from 911 Vintage Parts Ken @760-731-4911
info@911vintageparts.com

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437830933.jpg

Henry Schmidt 07-25-2015 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTemp (Post 8725369)
Henry, instructive thread on a great engine as others have said.

One question if I may. It looks in the early photos as if you've not installed the crankcase wire mesh screens. I assume this is deliberate (or they went in and the photos were just a mock up), and I'd like to know your reasoning for leaving them out. Is this something you do on all your rebuilds?

I have only rebuilt 2 911 engines, both stock, so I am a novice at best, and as a confession I noted the screen absence because I boxed up the last case and then spotted the screens on the bench, so had to reopen, clean, dismantle, fit, rebuild, reseal ...... Oops

Mick

The windage screens were designed to isolate the sump oil from the spinning crank reducing drag (parasitic loss) and oil foaming. There was a service bulletin back in the 70s suggesting the windage screens actually created foaming. Then around 71 the engines were equipped with piston squirters that deposited oil on top of the screens exacerbating the problem so they were deleted from all engines in the early 70s.

MTemp 07-25-2015 06:36 AM

Thanks Henry - only ever dealt with early 70's and 60's engines so didn't know that - along with a lot else! So I infer you would actually remove them if you were rebuilding an early engine that originally had them fitted.

Mick

Carbster09 07-25-2015 06:41 AM

Henry,

This is exactly the kind of build that gets me going. What fantastic work. The "stock" DeMan rebuilt motor in my 914/6 "needs" a bump up to 2.8 one of these days.

What are you running for pistons and cylinders? I take it you are using high performance coatings at least on the pistons, anywhere else? How about cams, spec? Still on carbs as well? What hp are you looking at here?

I would love to twin plug mine, but I can't rationalize the cost vs the small increase in performance or am I wrong? It happens.

Henry Schmidt 07-25-2015 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carbster09 (Post 8725540)
Henry,

This is exactly the kind of build that gets me going. What fantastic work. The "stock" DeMan rebuilt motor in my 914/6 "needs" a bump up to 2.8 one of these days.

What are you running for pistons and cylinders? I take it you are using high performance coatings at least on the pistons, anywhere else? How about cams, spec? Still on carbs as well? What hp are you looking at here?

I would love to twin plug mine, but I can't rationalize the cost vs the small increase in performance or am I wrong? It happens.

Pistons are JE (9.5:1) and cylinders are Mahle.
Main and rod bearings are dry film Moly as are the piston skirts.
Piston domes are ceramic thermal barrier.
Rockers are ground, rebushed with DU bushings, threads chased and the pad have dry film Moly as well before being cryogenically treated.
Cams are Mod "S".
46 mm Webers rebuilt in house
270 hp ? on street gas.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844202.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844218.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844230.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844409.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844427.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437844547.jpg

simsalabim 07-25-2015 01:50 PM

Lord help me ... here comes that drool again !

Henry, any objective testing/observations done on the increased wear resistance afforded by the dry film coatings for a street engine ?

Bill

Carbster09 07-26-2015 05:41 AM

Oh yes, exactly what my dream engine would have. Love the pics.

Henry Schmidt 07-26-2015 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simsalabim (Post 8726013)
Lord help me ... here comes that drool again !

Henry, any objective testing/observations done on the increased wear resistance afforded by the dry film coatings for a street engine ?

Bill

We've been using dry film lubricants for years with great reliabilty as you might expect.
What we didn't expect was the dyno results.
With dry film and our rockers we found 13hp on two separate 2.7 RS engines.
Both genuine RS engines produced more than 223 hp with no other modifications. These surprising results were a validation of our efforts to incorporate an old design with modern techniques.

cgarr 07-27-2015 12:54 PM

Nice rockers BTW ;)

simsalabim 07-27-2015 02:14 PM

Thanks Henry,

Any changes to the recommended oil type used when one goes with the dry film ?

Still recommending the Delo 30W ?

Tippy 07-27-2015 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgarr (Post 8728196)
Nice rockers BTW ;)

Craig, you worked on those?

Henry Schmidt 07-27-2015 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippy (Post 8728621)
Craig, you worked on those?

The entire rocker rebuild process is done in house at Supertec with the exception of the Cryo.
They are available for sale in sets either outright or exchange from 911 Vintage Parts.
info@911vintageparts.com or Ken @ 760-731-4911

Hcarraro 08-21-2015 05:49 PM

Henry

Fantastic build as usual. Thanks for sharing. Put a kit of the plastic caps and plugs together so we can buy from you.

Henry

wprater 08-24-2015 09:01 PM

wonderful looking build! Im off to start something similar myself! excuse the stupid question, but what is that 4-blade fan on page 2?

cmonref 08-25-2015 05:14 AM

This one?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads24/IMG_5862+11431272760.jpg

That is the alternator/fan MOUNT, not the fan. Those four blades are stators that adjust and balance the flow off the fan.

PropellerHead 08-28-2015 04:49 AM

Henry,
Do you spray a moly coating on the parts? It looks from the rocker photos that I see a freshly bushed/ground rocker and then in the next photo, a dull finish from perhaps a spray coating? I've seen this used on cams to protect lobes during storage/transport/install/initial run-in.

Always enjoy seeing your projects and have learned a great deal from your contributions to the Pelican community. Thank you.

Cheers,
Chet

Henry Schmidt 08-28-2015 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PropellerHead (Post 8771023)
Henry,
Do you spray a moly coating on the parts? It looks from the rocker photos that I see a freshly bushed/ground rocker and then in the next photo, a dull finish from perhaps a spray coating? I've seen this used on cams to protect lobes during storage/transport/install/initial run-in.

Always enjoy seeing your projects and have learned a great deal from your contributions to the Pelican community. Thank you.

Cheers,
Chet

Here is the process we use:
We remove the old bushing
Black Oxide the rocker
Ream the bushing hole
Press in the new DU bushing and burnish
Surface the contact pad
Coat the contact pad with Moly dry film (TLML 2)
Treat the rocker to a Cryogenic conversion process
Clean adjuster threads with 8x1.0 forming tap.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1440778733.jpg

72rsr 09-01-2015 08:25 AM

Henry,
Thank you for all your documentation!
What is the 3.0 oil pump flow mod you mention in the beginning of the thread?
Peter


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