Split the case? broken studs :(
 

Hey guys!
I went to adjust the valves the other day and a bunch of head studs fell out :^(

9 broken!!

The car is a 1980 911sc 3.0 euro/r0w
With 130k on the clock.

I've never driven the car more then a 1/4 mile and it was just at idle and it didn't smoke at all.


At first it seamed like only 5 broke and then they just kept snapping really really easy. The car sat for 15 years before I got it. Someone told me it could have been from sitting?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...c1bd66c0ca.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...e2541120e4.jpg

Anyway
I pulled the engine http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...1d55c1420e.jpg

Then pulled the heads
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...4d7d1e519c.jpg

Then pulled the head studs. All except one that's flush with the case

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...23bd5f3c18.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...02682a21cc.jpg

Good thing I noticed is I guess I have reusable pistons and jugs and they look and feel great. I also could only fit a 6 thousandths shim in between them. I don't have the book in front of me but I believe I can use them until 10 thousandths? Should I re ring them and send the jugs to the machine shop with the heads for a valve job?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...dbe6ea188d.jpg


I'm nervous splitting the case. Im sure I could do a couple "while you're in there" things but do I realllyyy need to? How much more work and money will this be? I dont mind doing things the proper way. I'm just new to this engine and also new to working on the inside of a engine to this extent so I've been following everything the books have been telling me to do. But the books don't give you tips on things like do I need to split the case? it just tells you how to split the case.

What do you guys think? If love some tips.




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Acetylene and Oxygen cutting torch. I would be afraid of melting or burning the aluminum case with that. I guess if you're careful and keep moving the flame around and never hold it in one spot it wouldn't melt anything.
Blue bottle map gas is the hottest flame I've used when doing that.
Hope everything worked out ok.

I didn't pull the trigger on the torch and had it on low. Just enough to get it hot and had my brother turning studs. Everything went smooth for sure.


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Cool. I can see you weren't pulling the trigger that blasts out more oxygen for cutting steel.
You know what you're doing, glad it went well:)

I got a little nervous I messed everything up for a second tho after I read your comment ha!


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The P&Cs you have are the good stuff
I wouldn't rering on a valve job because you're making the top end too good for the used bottom.
I would open the bottom to reseal and look at the mains, replace the IS bearings and chain ramps. The gasket set is $60 and you ll buy some of the seals anyway..
Mileage on a Euro car is really unknown because in the 80s the cars would be US speced with what was available used.
Bruce

You would or wouldn't on a valve job? Should I not do a valve job? Or do a valve job and the Pistons?

Opening the bottom end isn't sounding to bad now that you put it that way.

My car still has the euro cluster in it its actually 219k on the dash. I was told a guy bout it brand new and was living across the pond and the. In 1985 him and his family moved here and brought the car with them.

Do you think that's not the actually cluster?


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Valve job
 

Do a valve job. You're going to need 12 guides and it checks everything out. What I meant was don't do a rering too because all good on top doesn't help the bottom live long and prosper...
I lived through all the cars coming through and DOTed and then there was the one free non certified per person and a lot of things were changed with out record.
Bruce

Almost always needs 12 guides
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437409074.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437409119.jpg

Split the case? broken studs :(
 

Those look awesome! I just sent the heads out. Said $1500 and a week from today and I'll have them back. Average deal I believe?


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did you get out the case stud broken flush with the case?

Dick shift I havant gotten it out. I'm not sure where I should bring it locally to get it done.


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Well then I'll share with you how I get the tough ones out.
I get a large nut with an ID just big enough to get my MIG welder rod in and weld the nut to whats left of the broken stud. Put enough washers under the nut to be welded on so when it turns it won't clash with the cylinder base lip. IF part of the the stud is broken below the case you will have to add metal to the end of the broken stud, to have something to weld the large nut to. It may take a few try's to get a good weld on the stud. You should be a fairly accomplished welder I might add. Once you have got a nut welded on. Have a helper heat the block gently,use a large breaker bar w/a socket that fits the OD of the nut you welded on and gently slowly back out the broken stud out of the block. 100% susses rate with this method.stud
shttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437444258.jpg

Dick shift that's a great idea! I'll give it a shot today


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Disclaimer: I'm certainly no certified engine builder but I did assist in rebuilding the top end of my 82 SC. That being said,

At a minimum, I would replace the O rings around the engine case "through bolts"---the ones with the bolt head on one side and the acorn nuts on the other one at a time due to the use of heat with the torch to remove the lower head studs in such close proximity to those bolts and acorn nuts, and do not just loosen the acorn nut and pull the stud through the case before you use something like a dental pick to remove the old O ring on the acorn nut side----you don't want to pull that old O ring into the case while it is still on the bolt.

Clean
 

What I can tell you is, nothing beats clean to work with. Power wash it then degrease it even if you have to go down to the car wash for power wash.
Bruce

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437497219.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437497269.jpg

A question for you, Bruce. I notice that you have just the
upper head studs installed in these shots. I'm wondering if
there is a reason for this. I'm rebuilding a case of unknown
history. Presently it's machined by a pro, but I wonder
about the case savers that were installed before I got the
engine... If I try to install the cylinders with all four studs
mounted, I get interference / really tight fit, but if I have
just three installed, no problem. I can always screw in the
remaining stud (with the loctite) later.

After I get the cylinders mounted then I install the bottom row. If I have to pull a cylinder because the oil control ring slips out ala Carrera in particular I can easily remove the ring band after sliding cylinder back on. Just match stud depth with the top studs.
With aluminum case there is little reason for case savers except under way over torquing.
Bruce

I wanted to wash the case but was nervous about it rusting.


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Steam cleaning after making special covers for intake and exhaust and plugging every hole with plastic caps etc.




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437529154.jpg

Knowing
 

I still prefer knowing and being able to tell you what's inside. Dealing with unknown history or made up history, a reseal takes out some of the 30+ years of unknowns.
Besides, you have a week before the heads get back.
Bruce



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437564525.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1437564570.jpg

Alright so I'll be splitting the case then for sure. Id rather just know. Steam cleaning is a good idea for sure. I might take mine to the car wash and spray it down along with the tranny


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Are the valves on a euro motor the same size as a U.S. Motor? 49mm? I have two that are bent :/


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I went thru this same conundrum....to split or not to split? In my case (haha), the engine is 82 US SC with 183k and excellent service hsitory but broken Dilavars. I was obsessing abou this..asking too many different folks for their opinion...until my local guru essentially told me to man up and have at it. I did and was glad I did so. The mains were PERFECT, the rods nice but had a few fine scratches, and the intermediate shaft bearings showed copper. I bought new GT 3 rod bearings, i/s shaft bearings and a gasket kit. I spent many hours cleaning and prepping the case halves....but I enjoy that stuff.
I also had a stud broken below the block surface level and was picking away at it with carbide tips on a Dremel,mwhich I realized was a bad idea. A specialist machine shop set up the block on a Bridgeport and milled it out...for $100...and the friendly admonition that I was lucky I didn't f it all up with my Dremel/drill activities.
I re-assembled the short lock last weekend. I now know the exact condition of the innards and have photos (and receipts) to back it up. Glad I did so, and that I listened to my guru. Hope that helps, John in CT.

Valves
 

All the 3,0 and 3.2 use the same size valves. My shop charges about 35 each for the new valves.
Bruce

JJeffries
Thanks so much for the heads up! I'm going to dive into it this weekend. I was just super nervous on if I was going to make things worse. I'll send in pictures and we'll see what you guys think


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Split the case? broken studs :(
 

Alright awsome. Do you think I should get a Specific brand? I called the local car parts store and they had intake valves but they were only $13??? I'd like them to be oem or better


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Bruce knows his stuff- he has been building these motors for years and years. He might be able to point you to a good parts supplier too. BTW, he rebuilt my 3.2.

Of course it is not installed in the car yet, hopefully by October/November it will be in and running.

I had one broken stud on my 3.2.
The engine should have low mileage (non verifiable) so I didn't split the case, just replaced all studs with Supertec.

But I did rebuild the heads, changed the exhaust guides and cut all the valve seats. The intake guides were fine.

Split the case? broken studs :(
 

With splitting the case id like to buy new chains and a tensioner kit. Not sure what kit to buy. Do I need the super kit?


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http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...cc7ff6506d.jpg

New valves came in


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http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...2d7b2d6130.jpg http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...515b63de1c.jpg

Three angle valve job being done at pauls auto machine in southbridge Massachusetts. Just dropped off the new seals and valves. I'm excited to get them back. He even pulled the exhaust studs out along with two broken studs without being asked to. Great guy.


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Split it today guys. Been feeling under the weather due to a weird situation at the dentist. Everything looks smooth all the bearings look good to me so that's good I guess for the crank. Little discoloration on a bearing for the oil pump but I think it's ok? http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...dec6e05554.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...b4f944563f.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...20c0a15e16.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...8c1c019035.jpg

Other then this last head stud all the others are out I'm going to send the case and crank out to the machine shop along with the connecting rods to be checked and cleaned. Things are looking umm... as far away from being put back together as they could be ha!


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Split the case? broken studs :(
 

Couple serious questions!

Some say don't re ring the Pistons. The gap is good and the jugs look great. Not sure what to do? Some say it will be fine to put back in. The car didn't smoke so that's good. Had 100 mostly across the board for pressure with like almost all the head studs broken. Some say if I re rings and hone it it messes everything up. The machinest said they looked great and I shouldn't re re ring.

Also the oil pump! Replace or no? Spines great looks great! Should I chuck it in the trash? I hate this!


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That's wear on the intermediate shaft bearings. For a few bucks you replace them and the chain rails which should be brittle.
Bruce

Alright. I plan on replacing all the bearings and guides. Was just nervous about the discoloration


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Just curious...

Why all the bearings if just the intermediate shaft show wear? Would it not be lower risk to stick with what was working with the crank? and rods big ends if they too are OK?

[I don't know the pros & cons so I am asking - not suggesting either way is better]

Excellent question! Ha I don't know. You seem to have a great point. I think it would make sense to leave them in. I just thought while I was in there I might as well replace them. Is it a good idea to replace them? The crank looks fine as well but I was told I should have it sent out and polished as well as checked to make sure it was straight. I would assume that if I have it polished it would mess with how it sat in the bearings.

This is my first time doing this so its all really new to me and I've been hearing a lot of while you're in there things to do. I'm trying to do all that I can that seems reasonable to do. Some say I should replace the oil pump some say don't? Or rebuild the pump. I also don't know if I should re ring and hone my Pistons and jugs. They look mint and still have the stock hone marks! And the rings measure to be right in spec.

I feel like if I owned a shop id tell the customer it was all needed but is it all? I don't own a shop and this is my car. That being said its my baby and it's all I've been thinking about. Tough world we live in[emoji38]




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Split the case? broken studs :(
 

Edit

Sent the case hope to have it back soon.

Excited me cat delete pipe came in the mail. polished ss from racing dynamics.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...ed0955d5af.jpg


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valves
 

Hi glad you're doing things 100%
If I may comment:
I saw in one pic a valve and the bag it came in.
It looks like the ones I bought for my 4 cyl. motor, had them installed in the heads,
then did a little homework on the mfr. If those are the same as mine, they have chinese
metallurgy (not that there's anything wrong with that)....except for me, I got scared and swapped them for TRW. Lot more $, but a lot more peace of mind.
I didn't want a valve head to come off at high rpm...makes a mess!
Just a heads-up.
Looks great so far!
Peter