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Another Rookie 3.0L rebuild

Rebuilding came up in my conversations a lot sooner than I expected. I recently bought a '72 911T coupe with ~20k-miles on a 3.0L built by a prior owner. My hope was to drive and enjoy for years before it needed anything major. But a persistent oil leak turned out not to be an oil line as suspected, rather a case crack caused by use of an incorrect case fitting for that line, see my prior thread on this for the gritty details. I decided to bite the bullet, get a new case, and move the motor into it. I probably could have just left it and drove it with the leak, but where is the fun in that?

So begins my own build thread... Amstaff, I've been following yours - it has been well-timed, and an inspiration for me. Hope you don't mind me borrowing your title. I have been in awe of some of the builds I've read about in this forum - funny how staring a project like this in the face changes the way you look at the world.

Initially I considered paying to have someone else do it, but having really just bought the car, it was hard to feel flush with cash for this purpose. Plus, I've always wanted to build a motor, so it just seemed like the planets were aligned. Why not? Plus, by doing it myself, it would be easier to rationalize improvements and upgrades along the way, right? RIGHT? Work with me here.

I found out about the leak situation just as I had removed the interior from my '86 targa to install new carpet, then my DD and house both decided they needed some love, and the weather turned hot here in Austin. So, my progress has not exactly been speedy. But, progress IS being made. Motor is out and on a stand, and I have a fresh case on standby:







This being my first build, I am more than a little intimidated, but I am excited about the project. I've been reading this forum, Wayne's book, Bruce's course notes, and getting plenty of egging-on from local Pelicans and my new guru, jpnovak.

The motor has less than 30k miles since it was built, so I am hopeful that most if not all of the major components will be re-usable, and I can mostly just swap everything over to the new case. Based on the oil line problem, though, I feel can't take that for granted, that the prior build should be considered suspect. I simply have to be ready to find other issues, shortcuts, and problems. I try to avoid that sense of dread that I'll open it up and find that the cylinders are scored, the crank journals shot, and the thing was just about to blow up.

So beyond the basic disassembly/assembly, I've been considering some upgrades. Based on the notes that came with the car from the PO, it has Web Cam 20/21 cams. Not sure yet if I will stick with these. The car came to me with decent-running Webers, but I have pretty much decided that an update to EFI is going to happen. Jamie opened my eyes to the idea of having a modern, tuneable EFI system in a stealth-retro-nearly-correct-looking MFI package. So I have been sourcing the components I'll need to go down this path.

I am hoping to finish up my targa interior project this weekend. Then I will clean and organize my work space so I can approach the teardown with, um, discipline and clarity of purpose appropriate to the task. I expect I will be able to give this 10-15 hours/week. When you figure in waiting for parts, beginner confusion, doing things over several times, I have hopes that I can get through this in a few months - start the timer now...

I kind of see this motor with its failure due to an incorrect oil line fitting as a poster child for first-time builder blunders - exactly the kind of mistake I hope to avoid! Thanks in advance for the help and advice I know I will need along the way.
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John
1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 08-06-2015, 02:54 PM
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Subscribed! Thanks for taking this on... Been following a few 3.0'builds and I'm wrestling with the thought of doing my own or saving for a professional. DIY = having some cash for PMO upgrade!
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:20 PM
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Good luck John, I am glad my "rookie rebuild" inspired you to do your own. Believe me, it is such a good feeling when you do it yourself. The best advise I can give you is be patient.

Subscribed!
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Tom Feeney
1970 911 T
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Old 08-07-2015, 03:29 AM
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Ok, finally time for an update. Took me a few days longer to finish the Targa interior than I thought, and then it was getting the area somewhat cleaned up and organized. Finally got all that done, and started the disassembly.

So far, things have progressed smoothly. Over the last couple of days, I got all of the fiddly bits off - intake manifolds, fan, shroud, alternator, distributor, thermostat, valve covers. The only difficulty I had was with the fan pulley bolt, it did not want to budge, had to get out the impact, it was laughing at the little holder from the tool kit. Glad I never had occasion to try that on the side of the road.

Yesterday, I got as far as getting the chain covers off, but now I need to borrow some tools, I just don't seem to have anything to grab those 46mm cam nuts. It seemed like a good place to stop, so I pushed the whole thing back into the corner and went to watch some football.



Rookie corner - here are some ideas that I am pretty excited about, and have helped removed a lot of my anxiety about keeping things organized. All of the stuff I have removed has gone onto my jpnovak motor shelf (tm) starting from the bottom. As I build up the new motor, the stuff just goes back on in reverse order.



Following a similar strategy for fasteners - rather than bagging, I am using another of Jamie's tricks - putting all the nuts, bolts, and small parts, in order of removal, into a plastic organizer that gets labeled as I go:



For me, this is huge. I worked on another (non-Porsche) motor project recently with a friend, doing the standard bag-and-tag, and we ended up with a mess of baggies that just would not keep themselves organized. I am liking this idea a lot - since the bin fills in order of removal, everything is in order, and super-easy to reverse the process for the build. Simple to go through and clean or order new. I expect I will end up with 2-3 of these bins for the entire motor.

That's it for today, I am feeling pretty good about my progress so far. But then, this is the easy stuff...
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John
1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-13-2015, 06:56 AM
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I really like your plastic nut & bolt organizer. You will be very thankful you spent the time and energy to do that. Good luck with your build.
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Old 09-14-2015, 06:11 AM
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John - subscribed and good on ya, man. I really like your small parts box/order of removal idea.

Redoing these engines is getting horribly expensive, at least here in the NE. The parts alone are killer and doing it yourself at least you know what was done instead the generic "rebuilt", whatever that means. I am going to "man up" on the next one - these cars are so well documented and discussed/photo'd, I am running out of excuses not to do it myself.

But - John, what stand/mount set up are you using here?
Rob
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:46 PM
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Hey Rob, thanks - can't take credit for the parts bin idea, but it is a great one.

My stand setup is the adapter ring sold by our host (which I borrowed) mated to the standard yoke that came with the engine stand I got off craigslist. The clutch and flywheel are already off the motor. The adapter ring is threaded to accept four bolts to mount it to the arms of the standard yoke, and holes for the case studs on the motor. I used stacks of nuts (I think 1/2") as spacers over the case studs to fix the adapter ring to the case.

I also have a P201 yoke that I found at a good price on ebay after I had already gotten started (you can see it sitting on the floor in one of my earlier posts), which I will put on the new case for re-assembly. It's a little more elegant, and I hope allow me enough access to mount the clutch and flywheel when that time comes. But other than access to the flywheel/clutch area, this setup works just fine, and if I were to do it over again, would not have bothered with the P201.


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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-15-2015, 05:09 AM
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Good luck with your build,fingers crossed you have Mahle cylinders.
Old 09-15-2015, 12:14 PM
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Thanks - how can I tell whether they are Mahle? Is there a logo or stamping that will tell me?

By the way, my motor has less than 30k since it was built. It was running fine before teardown, I am moving it into a new case due to a case crack and bad oil leak. Unless I discover issues, my plan is to just leave everything as is, and move it on over - bearings, crank, rods, cylinders, pistons, rings, etc. Naturally, if I find problems, that plan goes out the window. But I am hoping to be able to just leave everything alone.
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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-15-2015, 01:44 PM
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They should be stamped with Mahle, I had the same problem with my 3.0 po cracked case where oil line goes in from over tightening. Had to buy a new case, will be watching your rebuild. There's alot of discussion what to do as far as Pistons and cylinders when rebuilding hopefully some of the experts will chime in. There are certain procedures for alusil cylinders but I think your ok just might want to find out if you should hone or not hone et.
Old 09-15-2015, 02:12 PM
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Dpmulvan - sorry to hear that, sounds like we are in the exact same boat. Both of us presented with a "learning opportunity".

I have one of the 46mm cam nuts off, but a bit timid about prying the sprocket off the cam. I've gone after it with my pry bar, but it doesn't seem to want to move. Wayne seems to imply they should just come off easily. I am a little shy about using much force. Should they just slide off pretty easily, or does the cam chain tension prevent that?
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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-16-2015, 06:58 AM
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You shouldn't have to use a pry bar to get your sprocket off ?
Old 09-16-2015, 12:18 PM
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Mine was a bit snug so I had to work it back and forth with a small pry bar (very small) to walk it off the shaft. Just work it one one side and then 180 degrees and pry it again working it until it comes off.
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbunda View Post
Thanks - how can I tell whether they are Mahle? Is there a logo or stamping that will tell me?

By the way, my motor has less than 30k since it was built. It was running fine before teardown, I am moving it into a new case due to a case crack and bad oil leak. Unless I discover issues, my plan is to just leave everything as is, and move it on over - bearings, crank, rods, cylinders, pistons, rings, etc. Naturally, if I find problems, that plan goes out the window. But I am hoping to be able to just leave everything alone.
John - can't the case be welded since you have it all apart? Yes it's a casting but doable
Rob
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Old 09-20-2015, 05:57 AM
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Made some progress over the weekend, I've got the tensioners and cam sprockets off, got to working on getting the woodruff keys out. Got one almost ready to come out, it's wedged in there up against the cam cover plate. It's funny how these seemingly simple tasks can consume so much time when you don't know what you are doing.



Beginning to feel like I'm solving a puzzle or some kind of sick intelligence test, and how these build projects can straggle on for so long.
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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT

Last edited by jdbunda; 10-03-2015 at 09:01 PM.. Reason: Broken photo link
Old 09-21-2015, 12:47 PM
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Use a punch to get the key back into it's correct position in the groove. Then use a small screwdriver on the front edge of the key to push and pry it up and out.

BTW what year is the motor?
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:32 PM
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Hi Gordon, I don't know what year the motor is, it's a 3.0L that was installed in my '72 when I bought it, built by a prior owner. It must be an early one, as it had the 46mm nuts on the cams. I had tried the screwdriver on the front edge, basically that's how I got here. Not too worried, at least it is moving, but it gave me a laugh to end up with it wedged like this, I thought I was doing so well to get it to move at all after working on it for a while, it's tight.
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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
1986 Carrera Targa
1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-22-2015, 07:06 AM
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Can you get a pair of locking pliers on the key?
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:18 PM
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I remember one of the keys in my car's engine was very similar in not wanting to come out. I remember lightly tapping on the side that was wedged into the cam and the cam cover so the opposite end was raised up out of the cam, then lightly tapping a punch at the bottom of the raised up end down inside the slot of the cam. This allowed the key to raise up and just popped out.
Good luck in your rebuild.
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:35 PM
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Thanks to all for the suggestions - with the combination of wisdom and the correct tools, I was able to get the keys out without incident. I sprayed on a little Kroil, tapped the wedged one down a bit away from the thrust plate ridge with a punch, then grabbed it with a long-snout vise-grips, and it came right out. The Jedi mindset I now have - the other one took all of 10 seconds to remove. Heads are next! I already have the correct long-shank allen sockets to get after those, so I am brimming with confidence...
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1972 911T 3.0L Coupe
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1989 BMW M3
2007 328iT
Old 09-23-2015, 02:50 PM
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