1985 3.2L Rebuild
 

Posted this in the technical forum in error. Seems more appropriate over here.

I have a 1985 Porsche 911 Cab - 3.2L - ZZZ Vin Euro Spec.
I bought it 7 years ago with 198,000 miles. Without any maintenance history, but did have a PPI done on it, but not to the extent of a leak down test, etc. It ran, I drive it very little, and it leaked a lot of oil.
It now has 201,000 miles.

Finally bit the bullet and dropped the car of with a local Porsche Air Cooled Engine rebuilder. He does a lot of 2.0-2.7L motors and knows them inside out. Learning a little bit as we go on my 3.2L.

We had no idea what we were working with, but it is officially out of the car and on the engine stand.
Good news is no broken studs or missing nuts etc.
Typical news, needs rings, valves, and guides etc.

He has given me the "bare minimum" parts list. But will also do anything else that I provide the parts for.

So this is why I am here. I am not an engine guy. I know nothing. All I know is this car is a Sunday leisure driver, no racing, I want to keep relatively stock.

I do have SSI Heat Exchangers and muffler that he will put on.

But is there anything else you would recommend?
Please be specific.. what it is, where you got the part you are eluding to etc.

Any cost effective help tips etc is appreciated.

At the end of the day....

I want to end up with a non leaking RELIABLE motor.

I was told the Pistons and Cylinders look great.

Here is the "minimum" parts list

* locktite 574

* piston rings (euro pistons)

* complete engine gasket set

* rear main seal

* front main seal

* front transmission seal

* 6 intake valves, guides and springs

* 6 exhaust valves, guides and springs

* oil pressure switch

* cylinder head nuts (24)

* three oil filters

* breather hose

* clutch pack

Get cgarr to do your heads. Search this forum for info.
Send as they are, he will replace parts only if needed.
Rocker arms too.

+2 Master CGARR

He does most beautiful work and the way he ships is simple awesome

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1483855168.JPG

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/941743-relax-have-cgarr-head-machine-rebuild-service-review.html

-head studs (either basic steel or ARP/Supertec)
-timing chains and guides
-send out injectors for test and cleaning
-any fuel or vacuum lines that haven't been replaced (don't want to have to remove the engine again any time soon)

+3 for "cgarr"

Master CGARR will check the exhaust studs out and if he feels it needs replacing he will recommend it.

As far as Sachs, if you can find the NOS of the clutch disk get it but the OEM standard is what you want unless you want aftermarket "hi performance" ones, most will recommend OEM style Sachs.

Ouch, not cool to post a Competitor's service here. Everything on that list is fine except the bearings and rod bolts ( I did not see head studs ).

You need to order the Main and Rod bearings seperately as you measure the crank journal and rods. YOU MUST CHECK to insure they are straight and within spec so you can order the bearing size accordingly. Most likely standard but you must check.

Absolutely critical, which every bearings you get, for GOD SAKES mic them to insure they are consistent. You have a better chance of consistency if you order the Porsche ones as they are checked by Porsche evidenced by mic marks

Another critical parts are the Rod Bolts and Head Bolts, either go Porsche Steel ones to replace the lower Divalars or go ARP on all 24 heads studs and Rod Bolts. If you do go ARP rod bolts make sure the shop measures and straightens the rods at 38ft lbs torque on the old bolts off the car so it can accommodate the ARP bolts.

Poop, yet another critical item is the cylidner decks on the case, must insure those are flat. have shop measure and if needed machine them flat. You see over time and gravity the lower part of the cylinder receiving hole get squashed and will deform. If you do not machine this you will most certainly develop a leak. Not cool after all the money and work you put into it. Lucky for me my shop caught it. I would also consider having the shop clean out the oil squirters for that matter hot bath the inside of the case at a minimum.

As far as the cylinder to case gasket, if CGARR needs to cut the heads up to 0.25MM you need the over sized gasket at 0.50MM not the standard or the deck height will be too short and you can risk valve slap on pistons.

So the kit is fine but it is very lacking and wasteful. I wish they made separate kits for 3.2s if you are going to buy a kit/s get the Wrightwood ( the Victor Reinz has some issues with oil pump orings ) and help support our gracious Host :D

Updated list - Can you tell me which items I should request for Brand if there is Brand Preference.
Also... can you tell which things I may have duplicated? Anything I am missing? Thank you.

ARP Head Stud Kit
Solid Oil Return Tubes with all seals
6 Porsche Intake-trw
6 Porsche Exhaust Valve -trw
1 Porsche Transmission Output Shaft Seal
4 Porsche Oil Filter
1 COMPLETE Wrightwood Racing Gasket/Seal/O-Ring Set
24 Porsche Cylinder Head Nut
12 Porsche Valve Spring Set
12 Porsche Valve Guide Intake Or Exhaust
1 Porsche Oil Breather Hose Tank To Engine
1 Porsche Front Pulley Crankshaft Seal
1 Porsche Transmission Mainshaft Input Shaft
1 Porsche Nose Bearing O-ring
1 Porsche Oil Pressure Sending Unit For Ga
12 Porsche Exhaust Manifold Stud 8 X 30 Mm
1 Porsche Rear Main Seal - Flywheel Side
1 Porsche Clutch Kit - Sachs
1 Rod Bearing Set (Standard)
1 Main Bearing Set (Standard)
1 GOETZE Piston Ring Set
12 Connecting Rod Bolts
12 Connecting Rod Nuts
1 Loctite 574 50 ml Tube
9 Flywheel Bolts (DO THESE COME IN THE CLUTCH KIT???)
1 Chain Rail Brown
5 Chain Rails Black
2 Timing Chains - Endless
2 Intermediate Shaft Bearings - Large
2 Intermediate Shaft Bearings - Small

Porsche cylinder head nuts? ARP head studs will have nuts in the kit.

Rod bolts and nuts? Use ARP!

Flywheel bolts? Most re-use these?

Most of the seals and O-rings will be in the gasket set?

Valve guides? Who ever is doing your heads would probably supply new valves.

What brand of cylinders do you have? Mahle?

+1

Are your chain rails damaged? I've only replaced them if one of the little tabs which hold them onto the groove in the mounting pin has broken.

I like to use one two piece oil return tube. I use it next to where the scavenge pump output fitting goes. Very hard to attach to that fitting with the return tube in place. The two piece tubes work fine and don't necessarily leak. Having two of these is handy also if you mess up your sequence and discover that you have torqued the cam carrier on with all those nuts only to discover you forgot to put the tubes in first.

You mean the transmission input shaft seal, right?

You are replacing all the exhaust studs? Are the old ones damaged? Too short for whatever headers you are going to use? Have they all been pulled already? If you are careful to put anti-seize on these before putting the nuts on you should be able to get the nuts back off the old studs as well as you can from new ones.

Do you know that your oil pressure sender is bad? If not, no need to replace it. Besides, it is easy to get to, right there to the right of the alternator housing. The idiot light switch is what it makes sense to replace, need it or not, if you don't know its and the engine's history. They have a habit of leaking after a while. While you are at it, pull the engine thermostat, which is near the idiot switch (and near the breather attachment - that end of the engine) and replace its O ring - should be one in your kit.

Four oil filters? Two should be fine unless you live far away from anyone who can supply them.

The transmission has four seals. No need to remove the output flanges to replace those if it isn't leaking. Replacing the one in the bell housing sounds like not a bad idea, and as long as you don't have the 915 which did not have the removable TOB guide tube, easy to do. You could replace the seal at the other end of the transmission - the one which seals the shift rod. But if it isn't leaking, why do that. You can actually get that one out with the transmission in the car if need be.

I've reused the flywheel bolts - there are 9 of them, and not torqued particularly high. On the other hand, they aren't as expensive as the 6 bolts for the older cranks, so that is kind of a toss up. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has broken one of these bolts on this style crank.

ARP rod bolts are the key improvement here, as several have noted. The stock rod bolt on the 3.2 is its weak point, but ARPs or equivalent super high strength bolts cure that.

subscribing to this one too. great info here.... thanks guys

Buy the "How to Rebuild and Modify Porsche 911 Engine" Book
 

I highly recommend adding Wayne's engine rebuild book to your list - and reading it soon to get familiar with any parts or machine work that your builder / shop recommends.

If the shop you chose is good, you should be able to count on them to provide solid recommendations on parts that should be replaced and / or potential "while it's open" upgrades - but it's still good to get an understanding of which parts they are replacing and what kind of machine shop work they are performing.

1985 Porsche 911 Carrera Targa - Engine Rebuild Wizard - Page 1

Are you sourcing / providing all the parts and materials (gaskets, seals, sealants etc)?

----------------------------------------------


I believe valves are normally an inspect and replace as necessary item - and any good machine shop that rebuilds 911 heads will let you know if they can re-use or replace.

Same for the valve springs - they are inspectable and re-useable.


Gordo

Thank you for everyones input!
 

Parts are ordered.

Will deliver the parts to my engine guy mid April.

And hopefully I will be driving my car in May!

The last of the parts have shown up!

Hope to get some progress pics and reports along the way from my machine shop guy and engine guy. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1492490180.jpg

Stock rod bolts are fine with a completely stock motor operated on the street. I'm a bit surprised you aren't using ARP (or Raceware, same as your head studs) rod bolts, both of which are made of much higher strength steel than the stock Porsche bolts.

Progress
 

Stopped by the shop...

Cylinder heads back from the machine shop.
Nice and shiny!

He will have the case split soon and send out for ultrasonic cleaning.

Also the flywheel will be machined.

He is supposed to provide me with progress pics along the way!

Swing by the shop.
Things are starting to take shape.
Shiny things!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494367350.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494367350.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494367350.JPG

Re: gasket kit. I would just get what you need. Every rebuild gasket set I've bought has a lot of stuff not needed. Exhaust system gaskets that dont fit due to headers, Valve stem seals that were already replaced by the person doing the heads, conrod bushings. intercooler gaskets that dont fit the custom intercooler etc. Definately get wrightwood gaskets though. Get some kind of upgraded studs for the exhaust. And if you bite the bullet and time sert all of them they will be easier to remove in the future. Put some 574 on the gaskets between the chain boxes and cam towers so they dont decide to leak a 1000 miles later and a couple trips to the race track.

I am not doing the re-build myself. My engine guy only does air-cooled Porsche motors. It is fun to stop by the shop and see what is on the go. Right now... he is just finishing up a 2.4L. Has a 2.7L almost done too. Mine will be done soon. Then he will finish up a 2.0L and a 3.0L that he is working on.

oh ok

Looks like he is making some progress. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494979986.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494980009.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1494980025.jpg

Fan Shroud Cracked
 

Is it worthwhile getting a magnesium welding guy to fix it up... or just bite the bullet and buy a new aluminum one?

Not disagreeing with you, but are interested how you come to this opinion. Do you have any technical data showing that the stock material is a lower grade than what ARP use?

Or is the choice purely based upon marketing? I agree with you that the stock Rod bolts and nuts are a good choice when building a stock engine. Same for the head studs now, or the use of the later all thread types.

Certainly not questioning the ability of ARP or Raceware, but questioning why these are the go to when maybe the stock parts are good enough for a stock rebuild. The choice of any part should be on its merit and the use, not on marketing.

Two facts to consider. ARP can be reused. Re-torqued and used for repeated rebuilds. Stock bolts, are one time. Torque them once and that is it.
The ARP bolts take a higher torque value compared to the stock bolts.

Understood. But is that the reason why ARP or any other aftermarket fastener is used over the OEM part, for a stock build. I would think most here hope that the rebuild they take on is the last one for many years.

I find no issue with buying good parts even adding some safety into mix, but often many parts are purchased when the OEM would be ok.

I think the aftermarket pushes their parts regardless of the use and the customer buys into this, literally.

M42 - there is a guy - Chris Seven - who contributes from time to time here. He has an engineer's understanding of metallurgy and much else, and could tell you the type of steel Porsche used for the rod bolts for our now older cars and its strength. ARP and Raceware cite the steel type and the tensile strengths of their stuff, and also that of stock - or at least one of them did at one time. Stock is something like 100,000 psi, and the others around 200,000? Maybe not 2X, but significantly higher.
Modified motors, especially if for a car which sees the track, tend to get torn down more often than pure street cars, and for that there is a cost savings from being able to reuse the bolts if they measure out. But mainly it is the peace of mind because they are being asked to do more than Porsche originally designed them to do.

I think the head studs may be less of an issue if what you put in is up to the task, be it stronger aftermarket steel, or what Porsche has eventually worked out. Studs didn't pull because their steel was not strong enough, and my understanding is that they snapped because of issues other than simply not having enough tensile strength. I suspect most everyone reuses their head studs if they were the right stuff to start with and show no mechanical damage. If a stud were actually stretched beyond its elastic limit, the nut would promptly work its way off and your attention would focus on why.

Henry Schmidt, though not an engineer, could give chapter and verse on this kind of thing based on his extensive study and experience in manufacturing head studs, and I bet he has the rod bolt part down cold too. He sells stuff, but BS or puffery is not in his nature.

No question about the strength of ARP or other aftermarket parts.

My observation is reading posts, when these older engines are being rebuilt in stock form, the go to parts are often the aftermarket when the stock parts would be ok. No question the aftermarket are often superior, and if the builder wants to use these then great, but does a stock 3.2L rebuild need anything more than OEM parts if used as designed?

Stopped in this afternoon to check the progress. He was busy doing valve clearances etc. goes over it three times.

Dropped off 13 liters of Joe Gibbs Racing Driven 15w50 break in oil.

Fun times!

More progress

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1495493983.jpg

More progress!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1495686018.jpg

It's almost time to turn the key 🙀http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1495930131.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1495930194.jpg

Well? How did it go?

So far so good.
Poured in the Joe Gibbs Driven Break In 15w-50. Ran it for a bit.
All good! Drained it.
Poured in the Joe Gibbs Driven Conventional 15w-50. Drove it to get new tires and wheel alignment. Put 150 miles on it. All good.
Drained it.
One more oil change Joe Gibbs Driven Conventional 15w-50. Will use this for the remainder of the summer.

End of summer will switch over the Joe Gibbs DT50 - Synthetic 15w-50 oil.

Some things that need some tweaking.

Passenger side chain tensioner oil line. One little drip. Thinking it is a washer at the fitting behind the AC.

Still need to hook up heating system, need to weld the pipe up from the blower.

Also need to research my DME.

I imported this car from California into Canada. It had the Smog decal on it etc. As it is a RoW "ZZZ" car.

So I am guessing the "Euro" DME was modified to have to facilitate the Cat etc.

I have now gone to SSI with Mille Miglia muffler, NO CAT.

Driving this is night and day. When I imported it... I bought basically sight unseen. I had a PPI done on it, but still never saw it or drove it in person.

Bought it with 200,000 miles on it. Only put 5000 miles on it over 7 years. It leaked lots and then it was going onto the exhaust making it a nuisance. Basically a mosquito fogger.

So going from improperly sized bald tires... half of the tread was steel belt. Wheel alignment... engine rebuild etc... new clutch... its like driving a new car.

I could have probably done without the SSI's, I think I am going to have a little bit of work getting this perfect, figuring out DME, no more 02 sensor, no more CAT... If anyone has any suggestions... feel free to help out!

Now... lots of people ask... whats something like this cost... in US dollar terms... I will try and break it down.

TOTAL $6745 USD

$1800 SSI and Muffler
($300) sold old heat exchangers and CAT
$3500 All parts to rebuild the motor.
$955 - Machine shop work - Valves, valve guides, flywheel, clean engine case, etc
$320 - Tires - Hankook Ventus V2
($175) mail in rebates
$200 Mount and Balance and alignment
$445 Oil - 40 litres

$3500 Labour to rebuild the motor, 3 oil changes, take out engine, put it back in, modify oil line due to SSI and wide body etc, install stainless brake lines, bleed brakes etc, fix fuel line leak at the pump, inlcuding any follow up service to make sure it is running perfectly...

That is not bad at all. Good Job!

So clean
 

Maybe I missed it, but how did you get the case so clean ("shiny" as you put it). Looks brand new!

Dme
 

.
.
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DME = call Steve Wong in California - 911chips -

SWChips.com - Performance Chip Tuning for Porsche



Regards,

31 months
 

I don't post much on Pelican... but I was going through some old posts and saw this one. 31 month follow up. Well I havent done much to the car. It is back at my mechanic to finally deal with a couple of minor drips. Never got around to it because I wanted to drive the car. Still need to modify the heat exchanger pipe too. And check into my heater/defrost controls. Wasnt working... dont know if it was wiring or something else. But the car is in his hands to deal with the drips... when I get it back in the spring, I will tackle some of the other stuff.

TO DO LIST.

Ordered Porsche PPS - Get some background on my car.

Car is with my engine rebuilder to deal with the drips.

Run heater hose for the heater system.

Figure out AC and Heater blower fan. (Dash controls and fan work)

Clean car.

question, Looks like he used gasket sealant on the cylinder bases. Is this normal? Thought there was a copper gasket there (or is that earlier models?)

Thanks

Chris

Hey Chris. Not sure. Mechanically the rebuild is solid. Runs perfectly other than the drip. Hoping it is only one drip. But either way. He is on the hook to make it perfect.

Sealant on cylinder base gasket is not a bad idea. Some (like me) use a really thin smear of Curil T.

Hope the drip is something simple.