Time to rebuild 2.7
 

G'day folks, I have a 77 Targa 911S (2.7) with 145,000 kilometers (original in every way) which I will shortly be putting into service for an engine rebuild at a Porsche dealer who will give me a 2 year guarantee. It currently is using oil (2 litres per 1000k, including leaking). When it is hot it backfires a lot and isnt particulary pleasant to drive. The question is are there any modifications that I should be sure of having them perform as they rebuild the motor. Thanx

Porsche Dealer technicians are not really known for their work on older cars. I think it is a pretty rare occurance for them to rebuild a motor. Since the Boxster came out I think they generally just swap motors. The guys that know these motors have generally moved on to independant shops by now. Are they going to rebuild it themselves or swap it for a factory rebuilt motor? I expect the Dealer to be the most expensive route for getting a motor rebuilt. I'm sure we would be interested in the details of such a transaction.
To answer your question, update your tensioners if you haven't already.
I would repost your question over on the 911 forum as well.
-Chris

I agree with Chris. And a common upgrade is bigger P/Cs to make it a 2.9 or 3.0. More torque.

Milt, you are confusing the 2.7 rebuild with the 3.0L rebuild. It's not a common upgrade to install larger pistons on a 2.7 - I don't even know of anyone who makes a big bore kit for the 2.7. You can't use 3.0 cylinders beccause the stud spacing is different...

-Wayne

I just want to second (or third) the motion that you'd be better off going somewhere else for your rebuild.

I tried to order intermediate shaft bearings for my engine from my local dealer.

Response: "What part of the transmission do those go in?"

I very much doubt whether the dealer will do the job, most of the work will be sent out. The two year warranty will only apply to Genuine Porsche Parts, not anything else. Unless they have the capabilities to machine the crankcase (an essential part of 2.7 engine rebuilds) I would be inclined to look elsewhere for a rebuilder.

By the way, Wayne, 2.7 engines can be upgraded to 2.8 and 2.9 or to 2.7RS spec. At the moment I don't think 2.8 p/c are available.

Hello!

I have a 2.7 that needs rebuilding as well. I'm just starting to look into places that rebuild these motors (and rebuild them _well_ so I don't get stranded :)). Anyway, I'm in New Mexico. Anybody know of anything in my area? How is Motormeister for quality? Sounds like they've got a good thing going.

Would be nice to have some inexpensive mods placed...

Thanks!

Kris
'77 911S

Hi guys, i cannot describe myself as a trained mechanic. But one could say that i am hard-headed..... (right Wayne?)

I was very very afraid about dismantling my engine (2.7S). Now that is done, i am very very happy that i did.

Knowing that dismantling is a lot easier than rebuilding, EVERYONE should tear apart their engine. You will learn a lot. There isnt much to be afraid of. As long as you detail/bag/mark everything when tearing up.

Then you decide if you rebuild it yourself or not.

But as i said, by seeing whats in, youll be less intimidated by the rebuild process.

- - -

I am waiting for Wayne?s rebuild book, and will definitly rebuild it myself.

Ive been scummed so many times by little-knowing mecanics that i cant do worse.

My one-liner is : TRY IT BEFORE SAYING YOU CANT!

Will keep you posted.

I'm looking forward to this :). Sounds like Wayne's book is great! I still need to determine if I really need a rebuild, but I know the engine leaks and runs really bad. The car has sat for like 2 years I guess. I'll get my hands dirty soon... (I just bought the car and am prepared for the consequences)

I sent the engine in parts to Competition Engineering in Bodfish, Calif. for the machine work.. the owner actually told me some of the mods I had in mind were not necessary for what I was going to do with the engine.. IMO, the engine should be re-built correctly or buy a good used one.. which means good $,$$$

>>IMO, the engine should be re-built correctly or buy a good used one.. which means good $,$$$

I agree with you guys, but an engine rebuild may have many goals.

Learning AND have a good engine that you trust.

I think it leaves us with two solutions:

1) either you pay top $ to have it done (and its not a sure thing that it will end up correctly). Ask a friend of mine who went to a reputable Porsche mechanic to end up with a 10K dollar bill and an engine whos burning oil like a derrick.
OR
2) you do it yourself (at least youll know who to blame!)

The third solution is to run from
3) try to find the cheapest mecanic.

Ill let you know when i blow my engine.....

BTW Wayne´s book seems like its gonna be real usefull.... when its ready in its final format.

Coming Wayne?

Try Ollie's in Santa Ana (CA) for the machine shop work. They only machine Porsche parts and I used them with outstanding results. They will also mention what mods are available and what they will do for you. Bruce Anderson recommends them. Remember quality comes with a price.

I too recommend Competition Engineering and EMS down here in LA. Walt at CE for the case most definitely. I don't recommend Ollie's only for the reason I haven't dealt with them before, but they are highly recommended by others.

Not to sound too conceited, but this book will indeed be great. It is soooo much better than the 101 Projects book, you guys won't believe it...

-Wayne

Wayne, is the color version of your new book available yet?

Thanks,

Kris

Recommended Upgrades
 

Phillip,
Glad to hear you're rebuilding your 2.7. I ended up not having that choice, as I pulled a head stud and didn't even know it.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of rebuilding a 2.7L engine too. I'm going for 200HP plus (probably about 210).

You must do:
Pop off valve on air box
Upgraded Chain Tensioners
Check Head Studs and put in anchor sleeves

I searched alot of threads and found all kinds of excellent information on this BBS. It's fun and educational. I decided to totally rebuild since I had to take my motor out anyway.

I'm putting in 90mm RS Pistons & Cylinders
New valves and guides
New bearings
New time chain & gear set
blue printed oil pump
New rocker arms and shafts
Carrera oil fed tensioner kit
New gaskets
Reground SC Spec camshafts
New (previously owned) exhaust system
Blue print head and block
Adjusted deck height to 9.5 compression ratio
Ultrasonic cleaning and crack detection done
Balancing rotating parts to within 1 gram
R&R oil journals plugs for cleaning

I concur that you should not use a dealer shop??
A properly rebuilt 2.7 engine is a great engine and you will be very happy. The weakest part of a 2.7 is the head studs pull loose from the magnesium block. As the motor gets hot, it increases the pressure on the studs - this can vary by 50 to 60 Lbs from cold to hot. This constant push/pull on the studs eventually pulls them loose. The motor can still run with a loose stud, however it's known as running in the hand grenade mode. A good mechanic can easily remove the studs and place in proper metal inserts that will never let go. This with the chain tensioners and pop off valve make the 2.7 blues go away.

I am not an expert, or even novice; however I have researched this topic for hours and hours and concluded, committed and spent the bucks to have my 911 rebuild ready for spring.

Good Luck with yours and Thank-you to all the BBS Posters that provided me with so much great information. This board rocks!
(Special thanks to Stealthn, my Canadian buddy for all your help and effort)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/no motor 2.jpg
Motor is out to see the Doctor........

Sorry to be lurking over here again. All I have is a 2.7 and no car unless I put it in my 914. In which case I will want to do away with the CIS and raise the compression, add cams, etc.

So as far as my statement is concerned, Arnold at Andial was the one that suggested originally what I repeated here. I believe that they have the Mahle P/Cs to do this.

Thanx to all who responded to my enquiry, I will continue with my plans and will advise you regarding the results. The guy who will be working on my 77 Targa has a very good reputation (lots of experience with 2.7s). The machine shop is also highly regarded. I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating in the spring once the weather turns warm and sunny.

Any reccomended machine shops in San Diego, or am I better off taking the pieces to Los Angeles ?

It looks like my 2.7 may have broken/pulled cylinder studs.

James

Too bad Red-Beard!!! That's what started my quest, but I must admit I'm very happy right now, just a few shackles short?

Try posting on the 911 Tech Forum for a quicker answer are not many surf here? I'm sure there are some good shops in your area. TTweed is from La Joya area, and I'm sure I've seen others - that's my dream land, I just love it there!

I use Competition Engineering.. they're up north by Bakersfield

I hear Ollies in Santa Ana is very good, and BA recommends them. I believe it is closer to San Diego than LA and Bakersfield.

:D Starting to feel very happy....... I'm just about done the rebuild, just replaced fuel line hoses and fuel regulator and pressure is staying in place, a couple of tweeks and I'll be driving her daily..... very happy! It's like a brand new car

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...ild Apr 16.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...ild2Apr 16.jpg

CE and Ollies are both first class operations. Walt and George are one and the same, professional machinist, first class all the way. They both know more about Porsche engines than most anyone alive.

Either one of them will talk to you and educate you enouth to know you are doing the right thing. YOu can't go wrong with either one of them.

Job Well Done!
 

Well my car is home and running very well. We were out driving Saturday and Sunday - Sunday being a perfect sunny day! I rebuilt the 2.7L this past winter, installed an external oil cooler, upgraded the headlites, replaced the brake pads, installed a turbo muffler, replaced the tranny oil and gave her a good cleaning.

The motor is good and broken in and there is alot more power. We completed the rebuild to provide a 210HP output and there is definately more power.... way more! When the car is running at 3000 to 3500 rpm and you punch it, you are literally thrown back into the seat. Of course the turbo muffler is loud, I can't imagine anything being louder. When coming down a hill off the accelerator, it gives a very loud rummble, but spits a few backfires (small not loud). I really don't like that? I'm not sure if I can do anything about it now? Kinda sounds like those cars with a hole in their muffler?

The nicest part however, is the starting. Starts like a brand new car now, just turn the key and boom! I had alot of trouble starting the car hot and cold before. The oil is so clean, you can't even see it on the stick.

Next I'm installing a "Pelican" supplied aluminum peddle cluster, P floor mats and 930 Steering wheel. I've got the white faced gauges, but not quite sure if I'm going to put them in or not?

It sure feels good to have the car back home and running well. I can rest now and drive.......

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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/0 Tail%end.jpg

Wow Rob! That thing looks great!

Troy

i also have used ollies for my 2.7 machine work on my 914-6 project.ike and george are a couple of good guys.they have one specific machine to do one specific job on the motor. i was very impressed with ther operation. on i was on a budget, and interviewed many shops. most people say to stay away from motorsheister??? this has also been the comments from poc and pca members.good luck!

Rob,
That car is gorgeous! My '74 is stock and pretty darn pristine. The motor has ~ 85k, still gives book performance figures and doesn't leak... When the time come to re-build I am curious about the RS spec type upgrade that boasts 210 hp. I didn't catch it...are you using carbs or MFI for fuel delivery?
Ryan

Rob Great results. It looks very pretty and am sure you will have lots of great rides and enjoyment. Fantastic job.

By way of update, It was four weeks ago that I started up the 77 Targa in our underground garage (Thanx to those who provided the start up procedures on this forum). Well after sitting for five months, lots of smoke, like huge amounts, but running fine. I was trying to get out of there fast and wouldn't you know it one of our seniors is just coming in. Anyway after manouvering around her I get out and up onto the back of the building. Still lots of smoke and the sounds of sirens. First police, and then four fire brigade trucks. After convincing them there was no fire just lots of smoke and getting the exhaust fans going they left me in the care of the police. They wanted to know where the plates for the car were and was it registered. Well the plates (77 Targa) were upstairs and no rego yet. By now the smoke had stopped and was sounding very good. Police person asked what I was going to do now and I said if she was going north I would go south to drop off the car for the engine rebuild. My other alternative was to put the car back in the garage, get the rego done and hopefully not have the same event all over again the next weekend. I waited five minutes and then headed south. Well, hopefully by Thursday I will be heading north again with no smoke. The engine will be for the most part rebuilt with all upgrades recommended here together with new clutch and pressure plate. so expect another 140,000 kms and another 25 years of fun. I will take some photos and post them in the next week or so. It doesn't match yours for finish but it is mine warts and all.

Phillip Francis

Good Story Phillip,
Hopefully the guy who started this thread will have some good news about his rebuild soon? Looking forward to it and seeing your pics, until then keep away from setting off those smoke detectors?

Big Chill Car,
I'm running the CIS, but with some mods to pistons, compression and cams. The car now has 2500km and is running so good, a ton of more power, a lot better response and very even in the acceleration. It runs comfortable around 120-130Mph and I just had it up to about 145Mph, maybe coulda hit the 150 mark, but shut her down as it was quit bouncy.

I think I listed all the mods of my rebuild in page one of this thread, check it out and give me your feedback. My Mechanic says 210HP and from all I've read it jives? Thanks.

P.S. I've got Waynes Rebuild book now; really enjoying it and wish I'd had it before I did the rebuild??? Anyone thinking of doing a rebuild .... this is a must in your library, that's for sure! ABC's of rebuilding a 2.7L.

Rob, as the initiater of this thread, I am pleased to report that the 77 Targa is back on the road plated with 77 Targa. The engine sounds and feels very strong and now I have to have the discipline to keep my foot off the peddle and an eye on the RPM for the first 1000kms. I will give you guys a more comprehensive account of things after the first service is completed. My next project is to figure out how to post the photos.
Again thanx for the support.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/77Targa-gif.gif [IMG]